Why do many Western TMA practitioners use fancy BS instead of straightforward simple techniques?

[Bullsherdog]

Everyone is sort of missing the point.

I know Kenichi is a manga. The story is full of BS such as flying in the sky, breaking tanks with one punch, jump kicks and spinning flailing attacks.

The point i was making is that even it and its brother DBZ shows the superhuman fighters doing common sense straight-in-you-face simplistic attacks such as straight punches, knees, backfists, elbow smashes, and even slapping.

This is in contrast to how in the West many schools not only teach BS, but even those that teach sound techniques end up producing students who think doing the crane kick a la Karate Kid style in the WRONG RANGE and TIMING (a la just as an opponent is about to land a fist) is an effective first move in a fight.

Same with trying jump kicks on a slippery environement, starting with a roundhouse in the head, etc.

Now I actually watched documentaries of Asian fighters and even know some Chinese who brought in relatives from the mainland for a vacation. Some of these relatives were masters of Wing Chun and acrobatics Wushu and despite using styles with a lot of fancy (often flowery movements), they just stuck with stuff like "Pin a student on the ground from behind his head with your arm" when they had to put down rowdy students (often white). In the few fights at public places I witnessed, these masters used common sense stuff and basic movements like headlocks and smashing a guy after shoving him to the wall with a hard elbow.

Which is why I'm wondering why the West has consistently produced BS systems. Even the Karate Kid at least showed Mr. Miyagi using straight forward punches, throws, and armlocks to take out a thug rather than BS flailing and as I pointed out int he link Hermit just used a backslap to KO a henchman despite usually using flowery wide movements when he fights other trained fighters in Kenichi.

Why does the West produce this level of BS fighters? Despite the fact traditional masters and high ranking fasters from Asia would just get-right-at-your-face and slam you on the wall with their hands or using a bearhug to take you to the ground? I mean I could have sworn the first movements some of these masters used was a simple slap to put a cocky student in his place rather than flowery flails!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Everyone is sort of missing the point.

I know Kenichi is a manga. The story is full of BS such as flying in the sky, breaking tanks with one punch, jump kicks and spinning flailing attacks.

The point i was making is that even it and its brother DBZ shows the superhuman fighters doing common sense straight-in-you-face simplistic attacks such as straight punches, knees, backfists, elbow smashes, and even slapping.

This is in contrast to how in the West many schools not only teach BS, but even those that teach sound techniques end up producing students who think doing the crane kick a la Karate Kid style in the WRONG RANGE and TIMING (a la just as an opponent is about to land a fist) is an effective first move in a fight.

Same with trying jump kicks on a slippery environement, starting with a roundhouse in the head, etc.

Now I actually watched documentaries of Asian fighters and even know some Chinese who brought in relatives from the mainland for a vacation. Some of these relatives were masters of Wing Chun and acrobatics Wushu and despite using styles with a lot of fancy (often flowery movements), they just stuck with stuff like "Pin a student on the ground from behind his head with your arm" when they had to put down rowdy students (often white). In the few fights at public places I witnessed, these masters used common sense stuff and basic movements like headlocks and smashing a guy after shoving him to the wall with a hard elbow.

Which is why I'm wondering why the West has consistently produced BS systems. Even the Karate Kid at least showed Mr. Miyagi using straight forward punches, throws, and armlocks to take out a thug rather than BS flailing and as I pointed out int he link Hermit just used a backslap to KO a henchman despite usually using flowery wide movements when he fights other trained fighters in Kenichi.

Why does the West produce this level of BS fighters? Despite the fact traditional masters and high ranking fasters from Asia would just get-right-at-your-face and slam you on the wall with their hands or using a bearhug to take you to the ground? I mean I could have sworn the first movements some of these masters used was a simple slap to put a cocky student in his place rather than flowery flails!

Asia produces the same BS fighters, you've just been lucky enough not to meet them.

 

[skribs]

Everyone is sort of missing the point.

I know Kenichi is a manga. The story is full of BS such as flying in the sky, breaking tanks with one punch, jump kicks and spinning flailing attacks.

The point i was making is that even it and its brother DBZ shows the superhuman fighters doing common sense straight-in-you-face simplistic attacks such as straight punches, knees, backfists, elbow smashes, and even slapping.

This is in contrast to how in the West many schools not only teach BS, but even those that teach sound techniques end up producing students who think doing the crane kick a la Karate Kid style in the WRONG RANGE and TIMING (a la just as an opponent is about to land a fist) is an effective first move in a fight.

Same with trying jump kicks on a slippery environement, starting with a roundhouse in the head, etc.

Now I actually watched documentaries of Asian fighters and even know some Chinese who brought in relatives from the mainland for a vacation. Some of these relatives were masters of Wing Chun and acrobatics Wushu and despite using styles with a lot of fancy (often flowery movements), they just stuck with stuff like "Pin a student on the ground from behind his head with your arm" when they had to put down rowdy students (often white). In the few fights at public places I witnessed, these masters used common sense stuff and basic movements like headlocks and smashing a guy after shoving him to the wall with a hard elbow.

Which is why I'm wondering why the West has consistently produced BS systems. Even the Karate Kid at least showed Mr. Miyagi using straight forward punches, throws, and armlocks to take out a thug rather than BS flailing and as I pointed out int he link Hermit just used a backslap to KO a henchman despite usually using flowery wide movements when he fights other trained fighters in Kenichi.

Why does the West produce this level of BS fighters? Despite the fact traditional masters and high ranking fasters from Asia would just get-right-at-your-face and slam you on the wall with their hands or using a bearhug to take you to the ground? I mean I could have sworn the first movements some of these masters used was a simple slap to put a cocky student in his place rather than flowery flails!

What western systems are you talking about?

 

[geezer]

What western systems are you talking about?

^^^^My question exactly, Skribs. East or West, there's plenty BS to go around. Especially if your contact with most MA is via Youtube ...er, that wouldn't be you, would it, BS Dog?

...'cause there is an awful lot of cringeworthy garbage there!

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Tradition.

I believe enough typed


Wait what? I just read the citation to a anime. In the video in question it doesn't look like any power is given in the slap. Granted it is difficult to truly draw/animate it to look like there is power but it is a mild annoyance i see in some animations. I dont know i just cant see its power, maybe just me.



Obligatory rage super saiyan also.

 

[DaveB]

I think you guys are being too hard on him.

I for one love the absurdity of his posts, but then I'm a brit and we came up with Monty Python.

In truth though, I think there is a nugget of a point in there.

Direct attacks or indirect attacks?
Also when do you know your good enough that your kick won't.get caught?
And lastly what do you (dear reader) mean when you talk about bulldung techniques in TMA?

 

[drop bear]

Gsp is a prime example of world class fighter that pretty much does basics. But does them flawlessly.

You would learn the stuff he does in the first week of training.

You don't neccesarily have to progress in complexity to progress.

Where as you look at grading for example if all you did was the stuff you learned in your first week. You probably won't get your black belt.

 

[now disabled]

I watched Grand Theft Auto (the 1970s movie, not the games) now and the ending scene featured a rich boy who took some kung fu classes trying to do that crane stance only to get punched by a straight right.

It reminded me of a cliche in movies where a wannabe fighter tries to use some fancy kung fu technique only to get KOd by a simple slap or punch or hammerfist by his untrained opponent.

Now I notice IRL many practitioners of traditional martial arts mentality. Use unnecessary movements (many which should only be used by advanced fighters and even than only under specific circumstances). A common example is using a roundhouse as the first launching move only to get leg grabbed and taken down or punched before you can hit your enemy with it. Rather than simply doing an effective straight forward strike like a stomp on the knee or open palm fist or even a backhanded slap.

Its gotten ridiculous enough that even against out of shape people who lack the will to fight such as a nerd or a preppy girl, I seen people who boast about taking karate or some other TMA get KO'd knocked down by a cheerleader because they tried to use slow fancy movments that take too long too launch such as a moving arms around in a tai chi movement instead of just doing a hammerfist.

Now the reason I mentioned this is because in addition to watching Grand Theft Auto, I read Kenichi:History's Strongest Disciple. This manga is full of martial arts practitioners who practised complex styles at a how level that they can do stuff like Superman punch and reverse spinning kicks with ease and effectiveness. However the fact is they ONLY SAVE these complex moves under specific circumstances such as an opponent showing an opening or ambushing a bodyguard from above a stack of crate boxes.

Instead for combats against lower level opponents, they use moves so simplistic such as a simple right straight or a headlock. Even fights between masters spend more of their time using fundamental practical moves like frontal kicks than fancy roundhouses and tai chi swinging movements.

For example one of the rivals to the protagonist, Hermit, uses Bajiquan as his primary style. Indeed in his first fight with Kenichi much of his strikes involve swinging movements that are difficult to do and requires specific training, looking as flowery as movies show.

However when he confronted a henchman........

He simply bitchslaps her with a backhand strike instead of the flailing fancy moves of Bajiquan. The henchmen hits a wall and gets KOd.

In addition as the vid shows despite using advanced techniques during most of their fight, Kenichi knocks out his opponent with a timed regular straight punch.

THe manga is full of this where trained martial artist might use advanced stuff like TKD jump kicks in certain situations and against other highly trained fighters but they use simplistic attacks against soemone lowly like a bully or a nerdy troublemaker who's spreading gossip. In fights between masters, more basic blows like hooks are thrown than complex techniques and master level duels often end with something as simplistic as breaking another master's legs with a stomp attack.

Even those practising crippling overspecialization styles that are impractical such as Pro wrestling are at least showing using bare bones movements most of the time. For example Kisara practises Sports TKD and she typically uses a lot of jump kicks. However during an incident where her minion pisses her off, she was sitting on a couch. Rather than jumping off the couch to do a fancy gymnastics kick, she simply thrusts her right leg forward on the failed subordinate's body while sitting on the couch, knocking him down without getting off the couch. And while jump kicks and impractical stuff are her typical movements against trained fighters, against small fries she just ends it quickly by breaking the legs with front kicks and other straight forwards techniques.

This makes me wonder why so many Westerners who go into traditional martial arts over focus on complex movements (most which only advanced students could execute properly and under specific scenarios) rather than just a backfist or other simple attacks? I mean I even know an abusive blackbelt who would often do roundhouses or other needless movements rather than simply slapping his wife when punishing her!

How come many Westerners have this mentality when they enter martial arts? I mean even an unrealistic manga such as Kenichi (full of chi power, superhuman abilities, and plenty of jump kicks and other cool looking techniques)............ SHOWS fighters using simplistic straightforward attacks against inferiors and even use more basic movements in typical fights against trained opponents than fancy advanced stuff!

I am curious why do many Westerners going into TMAs have this mentality? Not just in movies but in real life even against people who could easily be smacked around (such as the wife of the abusive blackbelt)? Its so ridiculous many Western TMA practitioners try stuff like Tai Chi movements and getting KOd because they flail around!

I mean in Asia dojo masters often just use slaps and other simple movements to put down rowdy students even in styles over reliant on impractical movments (such as acrobatic Wushu)! How come many in the West lack the common sense to simply do backhanded slaps to get to the point instead of trying to do a spinning elbow or reverse spinning kick (as Hermit does in the video)?

Why pray tell are you basing things on manga? , It make believe and escapism not reality!!!

 

[Mitlov]

Gsp is a prime example of world class fighter that pretty much does basics. But does them flawlessly.

You would learn the stuff he does in the first week of training.

Oh contraire!

 

[skribs]

I think you guys are being too hard on him.

I for one love the absurdity of his posts, but then I'm a brit and we came up with Monty Python.

In truth though, I think there is a nugget of a point in there.

Direct attacks or indirect attacks?
Also when do you know your good enough that your kick won't.get caught?
And lastly what do you (dear reader) mean when you talk about bulldung techniques in TMA?

I usually make my absurd topics in the off-topic forum (Locker Room Bar & Grill). I've done such as:

• As a writer, developing martial arts as they pertain to aliens and fantasy races or creatures
• How martial arts would be different for a human in worlds with aliens and fantasy races and creatures
• Martial arts as they exist in fantasy settings, such as those with magic, The Force, or where ki is a tangible thing
• Martial arts with fictional weapons
• Martial arts training in these fantasy settings
• Instant gratification martial arts training (a la The Matrix and how Neo learned Kung Fu)
• Fantastical styles for real-world application, such as gun kata, and their training
• Legendary Swords and how they remain in fighting shape over generations
• How long it would take for an immortal to learn ALL the martial arts, or even if it is possible given the constant development of martial arts
• How well would martial arts work on Cyborgs or Robots (particularly those with joint locks)
• Is there a point at which the super strength of a superhuman is too much to overcome?
• Is there a point at which someone is so much more massive than their opponent that there is literally nothing their opponent can do, and how does that scale change as the sizes change?

I kind of get where the OP is coming from, and maybe most of it isn't as ridiculous as what I'm asking. But still, the reason people are being hard on him in this thread is:

1. Recent history of several similar threads
2. The majority of the sources cited are anime and manga, which not only are not real, but aren't even Western
3. The vagueness of the question
4. The bashing nature of the question (i.e. that western martial arts are stupid or BS

I don't see it as a popular reason for the OP shaming, but I'll add a 5th reason - there is a cliche in movies where this happens. You see it in a lot of martial arts movies, where someone does some fancy spins and flips and is in the middle of a big jumping hook kick when the opponent just steps in and punches him. I haven't seen the anime the OP is talking about, but I've seen this in several live-action shots. I think the purpose of these scenes is to show that this is a more realistic fighting movie. That it's not just about how flashy you can be, that it's not another one of those wire-fu movies.

Maybe it's about showing the winner has strategy and smarts, which beats the flowery techniques. Maybe it's about making fun of the wire-fu movies (more than trying to ground itself). Maybe it's done just for a laugh (like Indiana Jones vs. the sword guy) or maybe it's done as a subversion of expectations (similar to the last fight in Safe).

But outside of movies (whose job is to entertain, not to teach martial arts) I don't think I've seen an example of a western martial art that's focused on flowery techniques. If anything, I'd argue that the western arts I've seen tend to be more grounded in technique, drills, and sparring than a lot of Asian arts. I've seen criticism of Aikido not training for failure, Wushu is mostly for demonstration, and a lot of the crazy techniques you see come from Chinese-made Kung Fu movies and Japanese anime.

I'm not trying to bash the Asian martial arts (I take Taekwondo and Hapkido) but I don't see how the criticism goes "Asian martial arts are all practical and Western MA is all flash."

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Everyone is sort of missing the point.

Why does the West produce this level of BS fighters? Despite the fact traditional masters and high ranking fasters from Asia would just get-right-at-your-face and slam you on the wall with their hands or using a bearhug to take you to the ground? I mean I could have sworn the first movements some of these masters used was a simple slap to put a cocky student in his place rather than flowery flails!

To actually respond to some dgeree to this.

I belive it to be the culture of the two places. It depends on when you look at it and why said person is teaching. You must not ignore the culture divide and the tensions at periods.

For example they might restrict the westerners access to the knowledge of the style. Or it could be when we were shifting to sports/entertainment fighting. They also had to compete with residing western fighting styles (which have all but died out now) which might explain the flashyness to get students. And in some places martial arts are considered a life study, you study it from compotence to death, i have seen it refered as/used as a religious/meditation practice for some denominations and knowledge does get diluted especially if there are gaps in it etc etc etc

So put it down to two diffrent countries, thought lines cultures etc.

Jujitsu seems to have been integrated into boxing via bartitsu easily and functionally enough how ever, but i dont know much about his personal study when he went to Japan.

Oh and these countries have gone through sportinzations of originally fighting styles as well.


Summary, the reason can and probably does stem down to the culture of both countries in question. so its a fairly ingrained problem and there are fitness/non combat applications to it which could have taken president to some persons. (im not going there here)

Kind of a ranty response.

 

[skribs]

Kind of a ranty response.

Do you mean a Ratty response!

Ha! Hahahahahaha!

I'll show myself out.

 

[Flying Crane]

Tradition.

I believe enough typed


Wait what? I just read the citation to a anime. In the video in question it doesn't look like any power is given in the slap. Granted it is difficult to truly draw/animate it to look like there is power but it is a mild annoyance i see in some animations. I dont know i just cant see its power, maybe just me.



Obligatory rage super saiyan also.

Does that Force/power thingey have to look like his hair? I don’t have much hair left so if it has to look like hair, then I’m kinda left out...not diggin’ it...

 

[pdg]

I usually make my absurd topics in the off-topic forum (Locker Room Bar & Grill). I've done such as:

• As a writer, developing martial arts as they pertain to aliens and fantasy races or creatures
• How martial arts would be different for a human in worlds with aliens and fantasy races and creatures
• Martial arts as they exist in fantasy settings, such as those with magic, The Force, or where ki is a tangible thing
• Martial arts with fictional weapons
• Martial arts training in these fantasy settings
• Instant gratification martial arts training (a la The Matrix and how Neo learned Kung Fu)
• Fantastical styles for real-world application, such as gun kata, and their training
• Legendary Swords and how they remain in fighting shape over generations
• How long it would take for an immortal to learn ALL the martial arts, or even if it is possible given the constant development of martial arts
• How well would martial arts work on Cyborgs or Robots (particularly those with joint locks)
• Is there a point at which the super strength of a superhuman is too much to overcome?
• Is there a point at which someone is so much more massive than their opponent that there is literally nothing their opponent can do, and how does that scale change as the sizes change?

I kind of get where the OP is coming from, and maybe most of it isn't as ridiculous as what I'm asking. But still, the reason people are being hard on him in this thread is:

1. Recent history of several similar threads
2. The majority of the sources cited are anime and manga, which not only are not real, but aren't even Western
3. The vagueness of the question
4. The bashing nature of the question (i.e. that western martial arts are stupid or BS

I don't see it as a popular reason for the OP shaming, but I'll add a 5th reason - there is a cliche in movies where this happens. You see it in a lot of martial arts movies, where someone does some fancy spins and flips and is in the middle of a big jumping hook kick when the opponent just steps in and punches him. I haven't seen the anime the OP is talking about, but I've seen this in several live-action shots. I think the purpose of these scenes is to show that this is a more realistic fighting movie. That it's not just about how flashy you can be, that it's not another one of those wire-fu movies.

Maybe it's about showing the winner has strategy and smarts, which beats the flowery techniques. Maybe it's about making fun of the wire-fu movies (more than trying to ground itself). Maybe it's done just for a laugh (like Indiana Jones vs. the sword guy) or maybe it's done as a subversion of expectations (similar to the last fight in Safe).

But outside of movies (whose job is to entertain, not to teach martial arts) I don't think I've seen an example of a western martial art that's focused on flowery techniques. If anything, I'd argue that the western arts I've seen tend to be more grounded in technique, drills, and sparring than a lot of Asian arts. I've seen criticism of Aikido not training for failure, Wushu is mostly for demonstration, and a lot of the crazy techniques you see come from Chinese-made Kung Fu movies and Japanese anime.

I'm not trying to bash the Asian martial arts (I take Taekwondo and Hapkido) but I don't see how the criticism goes "Asian martial arts are all practical and Western MA is all flash."

Funny, I read the title and op differently...

I took it to mean western practitioners of traditional martial arts (of whatever origin) - not western MA...

 

[skribs]

Funny, I read the title and op differently...

I took it to mean western practitioners of traditional martial arts (of whatever origin) - not western MA...

Oh.

Either way, most of the ridiculousness I see comes from Kung Fu movies (usually made in China) or from anime (usually made in Japan).

 

[Mitlov]

Funny, I read the title and op differently...

I took it to mean western practitioners of traditional martial arts (of whatever origin) - not western MA...

Yes, the original post was referring to Americans/Europeans who do karate and Kung Fu, not HEMA/wrestling/bartitsu practitioners.

It's a silly thread regardless. And it's based entirely off of film instead of reality. Like his point about karate people using a crane kick? That kick was invented specifically for purposes of the first Karate Kid film. It's not actually part of karate.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yes, the original post was referring to Americans/Europeans who do karate and Kung Fu, not HEMA/wrestling/bartitsu practitioners.

It's a silly thread regardless. And it's based entirely off of film instead of reality. Like his point about karate people using a crane kick? That kick was invented specifically for purposes of the first Karate Kid film. It's not actually part of karate.

Its similar to a stepping stool kick, which is in my original style. It was a hybrid style though, so not sure where the kick originated