MMA for self defense thought experiment

[MetalBoar]

If you read my posts, you'll see that overall I'm pretty positive about MMA training and techniques and when I criticize it's self defense application I'm usually talking about how to refine it's focus if your goal is self defense rather than competition, not a criticism of MMA as a good choice for self defense training. I also respect and have primarily practiced TMA's. So, I'm NOT trying to start a TMA vs. MMA thread here. With that out of the way...

While I was reading @KPM 's Sparring vs. Self Defense thread over in the Wing Chun forum it got me thinking about the ways in which MMA does not model self defense situations very closely. Obviously, people bring up the rules and talk about eye gouges et. al., or the one on one nature of the sport, or the artificial environment lacking in broken glass. While I don't dismiss these arguments completely the way many MMA fans do, I think that these represent reasonable safety limitations and that you're going to have some sort of safety limits on your training whatever art you do, you just need to be aware of them and find alternate drills and training methods to account for them.

Now, one of the big differences between sparring/MMA competition and self defense situations that is only somewhat related to safety is duration. Being a sport, MMA frequently has a format something like 5 minute rounds with a one minute rest for up to 5 rounds. Most any self defense situation is going to be over in less than a couple of minutes unless you've really pissed someone off and they chase you for blocks.

This leads me to my thought experiment, and I'd love to have people with more MMA experience than me weigh in. What impact would it have on strategy, training methodology and the techniques used if instead of multiple 5 minute rounds MMA bouts were limited to a single 1 minute round?

This is a thought experiment, so I'm not suggesting really doing this, just theorizing on how MMA might be different if people were looking at the same kinds of purses and endorsement deals, etc. but the fights were MUCH shorter.

Thoughts?

 

[Danny T]

Fighters would be a lot more aggressive from the very start.

 

[skribs]

If you read my posts, you'll see that overall I'm pretty positive about MMA training and techniques and when I criticize it's self defense application I'm usually talking about how to refine it's focus if your goal is self defense rather than competition, not a criticism of MMA as a good choice for self defense training. I also respect and have primarily practiced TMA's. So, I'm NOT trying to start a TMA vs. MMA thread here. With that out of the way...

While I was reading @KPM 's Sparring vs. Self Defense thread over in the Wing Chun forum it got me thinking about the ways in which MMA does not model self defense situations very closely. Obviously, people bring up the rules and talk about eye gouges et. al., or the one on one nature of the sport, or the artificial environment lacking in broken glass. While I don't dismiss these arguments completely the way many MMA fans do, I think that these represent reasonable safety limitations and that you're going to have some sort of safety limits on your training whatever art you do, you just need to be aware of them and find alternate drills and training methods to account for them.

Now, one of the big differences between sparring/MMA competition and self defense situations that is only somewhat related to safety is duration. Being a sport, MMA frequently has a format something like 5 minute rounds with a one minute rest for up to 5 rounds. Most any self defense situation is going to be over in less than a couple of minutes unless you've really pissed someone off and they chase you for blocks.

This leads me to my thought experiment, and I'd love to have people with more MMA experience than me weigh in. What impact would it have on strategy, training methodology and the techniques used if instead of multiple 5 minute rounds MMA bouts were limited to a single 1 minute round?

This is a thought experiment, so I'm not suggesting really doing this, just theorizing on how MMA might be different if people were looking at the same kinds of purses and endorsement deals, etc. but the fights were MUCH shorter.

Thoughts?

There are some interesting dynamics that go the other way, too. For example, in a real fight, the other person has much more of an opportunity to give up. As soon as they realize it's not going to be an easy time bullying you, or decide that getting KO'd is not worth getting whatever change is in your wallet, they can call it off.

At the same time, you go into the ring knowing you're going to fight. You don't go into the ring and get sucker punched in the back of the head, or held down by two brutes who outweigh you by 100 pounds each so a third guy can pummel your guts out, or wonder why there's a sharp pain in your side before you see the knife.

There's also benefits to sparring, even with strict rules:

• Learn to read your opponent
• Learn to take hits

 

[frank raud]

if instead of multiple 5 minute rounds MMA bouts were limited to a single 1 minute round?

Ever watch Olympic boxing? It's 3 rounds instead of 10 or 12. Less concern for endurance, no wearing down opponent and waiting for an opening. Just go for it.
MMA for self defense? In the words of Chris Haueter "Think street. Train sport. Practice art"

 

[pdg]

broken glass

My absolute favourite.

Always tops my "pathetic things people say about self defence" list.

Every single time.




(I checked earlier, there's not even any broken glass strewn around by the bottle bank.)

 

[MetalBoar]

Ever watch Olympic boxing? It's 3 rounds instead of 10 or 12. Less concern for endurance, no wearing down opponent and waiting for an opening. Just go for it.
MMA for self defense? In the words of Chris Haueter "Think street. Train sport. Practice art"

Yes, this was part of what got me thinking down these lines. In the other thread I was saying that you needed to define what a "real fight" was in order to talk about how to train for it. Olympic boxing has always looked more like what I think of as a "real fight" (within the context of the rules) than pro boxing or MMA generally does to me. If MMA or pro boxing was limited to 1 minute total I think it would probably look a lot like what I think of as a "real fight".

 

[MetalBoar]

My absolute favourite.

Always tops my "pathetic things people say about self defence" list.

Every single time.




(I checked earlier, there's not even any broken glass strewn around by the bottle bank.)

Funny story, while I don't take the broken glass self defense thing very seriously either, I did one time come home from clubbing to find a huge shard of glass from what looked like a broken rocks glass stuck through the sole of my shoe. I'd spent the last part of the night with an occasional pinching feeling in the side of my foot and couldn't figure it out...

 

[drop bear]

We train fighters by switching a new guy in each minute for a five minute round.

Which keeps the intensity level up.

The thing is you are not just learning intensity in that five minutes you are also learning willpower.

So that should the fight become hard. You can still function.

Otherwise there used to be a show locally where they would put guys up against boxers for three 1 minute rounds.

Mackay tradie fight night.

Some of our guys went in and generally just mauled people. If you were wondering how a 5 minute fighter handles a 1minute fight

 

[drop bear]

Here is coachy coach doing 2 minute rounds of may thai. He is a 5 minute MMA fighter.

And mma fights finish early. Not everyone goes the distance.

By the way. Look out for the little wave to the ref that maybe he should be calling the fight.

 

[now disabled]

Self Defense is a hot topic as many will have very differing views on what that is.

Shortening of rounds, To me that is a sports thing and yes I see possible what your saying that a street fight would not last that long, however the guys that are training for the ring to me are training for just that the ring not the street. Thereby shortening of rounds I don't see would enhance the self defense aspect, just lead to more aggressive fights in the ring.

Every person has their own reason for studying the arts and if that is for self defense then that they should make aware to their instructor from the get go, so the Instructor can be aware of that and also so he/she can explain that (depending on what art) it might take a period of time to become proficient to utilize the skills taught

 

[Headhunter]

On one series of the ultimate fighter the prelim fights to get on the show were only 1 round and I think all but 1 was a finish. I like the idea for maybe some exhibition matches but wouldn't want it to be all like that. Some of the best fights are ones that go 5 rounds

 

[KPM]

Fighters would be a lot more aggressive from the very start.

Exactly! There wouldn't be this "feeling out" phase where they circled each other throwing non-committed strikes just to see how the opponent is going to react. There wouldn't be a lot of pointless rolling around on the ground to try and tire the other guy out or run out the clock. There wouldn't be a lot of clinching for the same purpose....to tire the other guy out and run down the clock. In a self-defense situation you always have to worry about the other guy having a weapon hidden away. So here's another thought experiment for you!.....what would an MMA bout look like if each guy had a training knife tucked away in their waistband that they could pull out at will?

 

[FriedRice]

Exactly! There wouldn't be this "feeling out" phase where they circled each other throwing non-committed strikes just to see how the opponent is going to react. There wouldn't be a lot of pointless rolling around on the ground to try and tire the other guy out or run out the clock. There wouldn't be a lot of clinching for the same purpose....to tire the other guy out and run down the clock. In a self-defense situation you always have to worry about the other guy having a weapon hidden away. So here's another thought experiment for you!.....what would an MMA bout look like if each guy had a training knife tucked away in their waistband that they could pull out at will?

You know why there's a feeling out process between equally trained fighters, right? Because if you go in crazy like in UFC 1, then you'll *usually* get ****ed up real quick. The skill levels are way beyond that trashy crap of 1993's UFC.....which was still way above the skill levels of the Self Defense hocus pocus of today....although there were some hocus pocus TMA fighters in those early UFC's, and they got wrecked by Pro Fighters such as Kickboxer, Patrick Smith.

This strange assertion keeps popping up, where you guys keep thinking that just b/c they're feeling each other out, means that the brutality is not there or something, compared to trashy street fights? This is just easily answered with this same canned answer...being...if you know something that works, you think UFC fighters wouldn't exploit it when millions of dollars are at stake? It's a $4 billion company, the UFC.

You guys never really fought anyone good, that's why you'd think that just going in ape **** works well. This is exactly how I fought in the streets when I wasn't trained and it worked vs. other untrained bums. Then I trained in a real fight gym and tried this **** and got my *** handed to me by trained fighters, easily.

Now, after years of training & fighting, I can play with most untrained or stanky TMA's like this all day:

But here are some street fights where the trained fighters danced around.

 

[FriedRice]

More "bouncing around":

 

[Mitlov]

hocus pocus TMA fighters ... then I trained in a real fight gym ... stanky TMA's

None of the friends I have who train in BJJ or MMA in real life talk like this. Why is it so common on martial arts forums?

 

[FriedRice]

None of the friends I have who train in BJJ or MMA in real life talk like this. Why is it so common on martial arts forums?

1. It's just easier to be more direct, whether or not insulting, over the internet and not care as much about the feelings of others. I'm also joking around, somewhat.

2. I wouldn't be this rude towards you in person (maybe not at all....so I'm somewhat lying to you)....and I'm not even your friend ....so your friends, I should hope, would be a lot nicer -> coddling.

3. You cut and pasted what I said, a little out of context, to make it much worse than what it was, which was just, average "worse".

 

[KPM]

You know why there's a feeling out process between equally trained fighters, right? Because if you go in crazy like in UFC 1, then you'll *usually* get ****ed up real quick.

--You should realize that this thread was started as a "spin off" of a thread in the Wing Chun forum titled "Sparring vs. Self Defense" where we discussed whether sparring ability should be considered the "litmus" test of fighting ability in reference to more traditional styles that have a self defense focus. In these styles most everything is centered around responding to a committed attack, and then continuing until the opponent if finished if possible. This is a different orientation than "squaring off" with an opponent where you ARE going to go thru a "feeling out" process, give and take uncommitted attacks, etc. So many of these more traditional arts with a "self defense" emphasis don't do well when they try to spar for this reason. Or, when sparring they revert to some form of kickboxing and look very little like the art they have been training.

This strange assertion keeps popping up, where you guys keep thinking that just b/c they're feeling each other out, means that the brutality is not there or something, compared to trashy street fights?

---That was not the implication at all. The "thought experiment" that MetalBoar proposed was directly related to what I just said above.....what if an MMA fighter had to respond to an surprise fully committed attack and finish it within a minute (as you might in a self defense situation)? Would it look different?

You guys never really fought anyone good,

---There really is no need to be such a dick about things in a discussion. Even if it is half-joking.


But here are some street fights where the trained fighters danced around.

---And this is still a "face off" or "sparring" situation. Just on the street instead of in the ring. Not really the equivalent of a self defense situation.

 

[Hanzou]

You know why there's a feeling out process between equally trained fighters, right? Because if you go in crazy like in UFC 1, then you'll *usually* get ****ed up real quick. The skill levels are way beyond that trashy crap of 1993's UFC.....which was still way above the skill levels of the Self Defense hocus pocus of today....although there were some hocus pocus TMA fighters in those early UFC's, and they got wrecked by Pro Fighters such as Kickboxer, Patrick Smith.

This strange assertion keeps popping up, where you guys keep thinking that just b/c they're feeling each other out, means that the brutality is not there or something, compared to trashy street fights? This is just easily answered with this same canned answer...being...if you know something that works, you think UFC fighters wouldn't exploit it when millions of dollars are at stake? It's a $4 billion company, the UFC.

You guys never really fought anyone good, that's why you'd think that just going in ape **** works well. This is exactly how I fought in the streets when I wasn't trained and it worked vs. other untrained bums. Then I trained in a real fight gym and tried this **** and got my *** handed to me by trained fighters, easily.

Now, after years of training & fighting, I can play with most untrained or stanky TMA's like this all day:

But here are some street fights where the trained fighters danced around.

No lies detected. Anyone who thinks that trained fighters can't apply their knowledge to a self defense situation are delusional. Perhaps the best thing about MMA is that it teaches multiple ranges, and they probably have the best standing to ground transitions in martial arts.

 

[Hanzou]

---And this is still a "face off" or "sparring" situation. Just on the street instead of in the ring. Not really the equivalent of a self defense situation.

That face off stuff can still be considered a self defense situation because his "friends" can make it so that escape is impossible. This is especially applicable in bullying situations and mostly applies to juveniles in schools, however it can also occur among adults.

 

[jobo]

If you read my posts, you'll see that overall I'm pretty positive about MMA training and techniques and when I criticize it's self defense application I'm usually talking about how to refine it's focus if your goal is self defense rather than competition, not a criticism of MMA as a good choice for self defense training. I also respect and have primarily practiced TMA's. So, I'm NOT trying to start a TMA vs. MMA thread here. With that out of the way...

While I was reading @KPM 's Sparring vs. Self Defense thread over in the Wing Chun forum it got me thinking about the ways in which MMA does not model self defense situations very closely. Obviously, people bring up the rules and talk about eye gouges et. al., or the one on one nature of the sport, or the artificial environment lacking in broken glass. While I don't dismiss these arguments completely the way many MMA fans do, I think that these represent reasonable safety limitations and that you're going to have some sort of safety limits on your training whatever art you do, you just need to be aware of them and find alternate drills and training methods to account for them.

Now, one of the big differences between sparring/MMA competition and self defense situations that is only somewhat related to safety is duration. Being a sport, MMA frequently has a format something like 5 minute rounds with a one minute rest for up to 5 rounds. Most any self defense situation is going to be over in less than a couple of minutes unless you've really pissed someone off and they chase you for blocks.

This leads me to my thought experiment, and I'd love to have people with more MMA experience than me weigh in. What impact would it have on strategy, training methodology and the techniques used if instead of multiple 5 minute rounds MMA bouts were limited to a single 1 minute round?

This is a thought experiment, so I'm not suggesting really doing this, just theorizing on how MMA might be different if people were looking at the same kinds of purses and endorsement deals, etc. but the fights were MUCH shorter.

Thoughts?

Well its not that simple, in a ring contest, you SHOULD be up against someone of roughly equal size and fitness, so it is either a contest of equal skill where the one who can go longest wins or a contest of equal endurance where the most skilled wins.

If you change it to a two minete round, the training will change to be more power based , but the above still remains true,

In a self defence / street fight situation, most fights last 10 or twenty seconds as one is just compketly over welmedby the strength/ skill of the other, ( or the bouncers break it up) or if they are equally matched they stop at about the minete mark, where one or probably are compketly gone, no strength no cardio, they may still carry on but no one is gettibg hurt anymore. a 12yo could iut perform them at that points.

So if you have trained to deliver close to maximum effort for two or more minetes, then you are in pretty could shape to out last them, even if yiur skill level doesnt take them out in short order.

But then he could be a miuntain biker with fantasic cardio, so better make that five minetes to be on the safe side