Tracy's Kenpo

[KenpoDave]

Creativity for whom........ Al Tracy or the students?

The students. You cannnot be truly creative until you have studied the whole of the subject. Look at Bruce Lee. He created Jeet Kune Do using principles that are available in most systems, but he did not have the full knowledge of the system, or the discipline to stick with one, so he made stuff up. He was right, but his concepts were not unique.

A} Who said anyone was limiting exposure to techniques???....... just because the base system of EPAK has fewer techniques doesn't mean there is less exposure being taught. (Granted .... this all depends on the individual instructors methods)

I agree. It does, however, depend on the individual instructors doing a lot or research formulation on their own. Which leads to the part you put in parentheses!

True, he did evolve to those.... it was a PROCESS for sure (and much detailed refinment to that process occured in the 80's).

What I infer here is that you are saying that Ed Parker created the master keys and the 154 techniques. I could be wrong. But, I thought that Ed Parker started with a much larger framework, 400 techniques to shodan if memory serves, and pared the system down from there.

Al Tracy did not create a system with 600 techniques, but rather was taught one, and chose to stick with it when Ed Parker began to change things. He did not accept Ed Parker's paring down. EPAK is not the tree from which the Tracy's apple fell. EPAK is an apple that fell off the tree of kenpo. It was mentioned that we may be missing the forest for the trees. I would submit that many EPAK practitioners think EPAK is the forest, when it is in reality a tree. As is Tracy's, as is the IKCA. Kenpo is the forest. And we could expand on that into oblivion, but I think you get the point.

My point is simply that the tools that Ed Parker used to refine his system were tools he developed from kenpo. The kenpo that someone else taught him, and the kenpo he taught to his early students before he formed EPAK. Al Tracy chose to stick with the original kenpo that Parker taught.

If I seem defensive, it is because the EPAK group always treats every other kenpo system as if it is somehow less. EPAK reminds me of Jeet Kune Do in that it was Ed Parker's current understanding of kenpo at the time of his death. Ever the innovator, I imagine that 15 years later, he would be different. To move the art forward from that point, you can't just jump in where Ed Parker was. You have to start where he started.

:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

What I infer here is that you are saying that Ed Parker created the master keys and the 154 techniques. I could be wrong. But, I thought that Ed Parker started with a much larger framework, 400 techniques to shodan if memory serves, and pared the system down from there.

I think a better way of putting it was that Ed Parker "realized" after a period of time (early days) that there were reoccurring movements within the system that he had been creating/evolving. This led to the (again) realization and thus the term "Master Keys".

In the early days there was a lot of focus on physical activities and self defense scenarios (which eventually led to techniques and unlimited variables) this base of techniques and variables started being recorded and thus numbered in the hundreds. This was what they had to work with at that time, along with the forms that were being developed and eventually inserted into the system. As the "business" of Ed Parkers Kenpo began to take shape (thank you Tom Connor) and sprang to life.... a syllabus was obviously necessary as well as a belt program devised.

After much trial and error, it was deemed to re-organize many of the basics, techniques and form placements within the structure (thus the many different technique lists/interpretations that are out there still handed down). Some instructors decided to leave with what they had at that time and start their own studios (for numerous reasons). The Tracy's were one of these that departed in the '60's .... but you already know that.

Ed Parker continued to evolve and "upgrade", improve, and innovate on what he had already put together/created/evolved or whatever you wish to term it, to the time of his passing. He re organized the early techniques into 4 charts of 32 techniques each for Orange, Purple, Blue, and Green, then in '78, reorganized the system into the 23 per belt system which went up thru 3rd Black and added a 10 technique Yellow Belt. In '88 he was approached by several black belts who wanted to "adjust' the system (cut down the number of techniques per chart for business reasons after the Korean Invasion). He did not want to "drop" any of the techniques at this point but was willing to look at yet another rearrangement, {Brian Duffy being the one who started the project}, and was testing (with several studios and instructors this plan) a new 16 thru Green set of techniques, 20 for the 3 brown & 1st Black Levels, and 24 for the 2nd Black thru 5 Black Levels. It was getting rave reviews from everyone that heard of it and many were in the process of switching to this new order at the time of his passing. Nothing changed.... just re-arranged.

As I mentioned prior, much was accomplished during the 80's and he was in process of publishing his latest training manuals as well as a comprehensive video series of which he only completed 2 tapes of approximately 30 some. During this time he WAS able to publish his Infinite Insights series which outlines much of what he has accumulated up to that time.

Al Tracy did not create a system with 600 techniques, but rather was taught one, and chose to stick with it when Ed Parker began to change things. He did not accept Ed Parker's paring down.

Ok, I'll take your word for it. I would tend to agree with you. He has been very successful at preserving what he learned from Ed Parker at that time, but I do believe he made many changes and additions on his own, heck he was into doing that when he was with Ed Parker!

EPAK is not the tree from which the Tracy's apple fell.

Ok, at the time that the Parker/Tracy split happened...... SGM Parker did not "term" his system EPAK, just Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate. So if that's the semantics game you are playing ok I agree. The Term EPAK didn't take place until the '80's.

Make no mistake..... Al Tracy was one of Ed Parkers Black Belts and he was learning what Ed Parker taught. Ed Parker's material was unique to him (not talking about generic basics now), Chow didn't do his material, nor did anyone else, it was uniquely Ed Parker's innovations and arrangements, anyone telling you anything different is simply... well....
:bs:

EPAK is an apple that fell off the tree of kenpo.

Ed Parker was under Chow, then after asking Chow to come to the mainland and work with him on the development of Kenpo...... Chow declined because he wanted to stay in Hawaii, and gave Ed Parker his blessings to forge ahead as he so desired, which he did.

Of Course you can consider EPAK a "Kenpo" link due to Chow.

It was mentioned that we may be missing the forest for the trees. I would submit that many EPAK practitioners think EPAK is the forest, when it is in reality a tree. As is Tracy's, as is the IKCA.

Well, I can't and won't speak for the EPAK community at large, but from my perspective, I totally disagree. I speak only for myself (however I know of many who share my views), and realize that EPAK is NOT a forest at all (never heard of anyone that thought so either), but anyone that is doing any of the material (mode of movement, techniques, terms, forms, sets or any of the unique to Ed Parker material) is or was at some time connected or influenced by ED PARKER. This includes The Tracy System, IKCA, Paul Mills group, Skip Hancock's Group, Palanzo's WKKA, Spearman's AKKS, Tatum's LTKKA, and numerous others. These all stem from the TREE of ED PARKER [all these men trained under, received rank and teach a form of what Ed Parker taught at the time these men studied with them] NOT Kenpo in general (which would include KaJaKenBo and others).

Kenpo is the forest. And we could expand on that into oblivion, but I think you get the point.

I'm sure there are many under the general KENPO heading but we are specifically talking about those that were associated, trained and taught by Ed Parker.

My point is simply that the tools that Ed Parker used to refine his system were tools he developed from kenpo.

In the beginning he had to use what he knew at that time..... sure, but as he evolved he learned much on his own and added to his repertoire as his understanding increased.

The kenpo that someone else taught him, and the kenpo he taught to his early students before he formed EPAK.

YES, totally agree, he taught his "early" students what he knew at that time, but he sure as heck didn't stop there!!!

Al Tracy chose to stick with the original kenpo that Parker taught.

Yes, I agree with you here, but only the tools and how to use them at the time that he was with Ed Parker.

If I seem defensive, it is because the EPAK group always treats every other kenpo system as if it is somehow less.

I am not representing any/all EPAK Group. I only represent my personal observations and opinions. So don't mix me in with anyone else.

EPAK reminds me of Jeet Kune Do in that it was Ed Parker's current understanding of kenpo at the time of his death. Ever the innovator, I imagine that 15 years later, he would be different. To move the art forward from that point, you can't just jump in where Ed Parker was. You have to start where he started.

Yes, If he saw an improvement to be made.....he would research it then take measures to improve upon it... I agree.

:asian:

 

[don bohrer]

As the "business" of Ed Parkers Kenpo began to take shape (thank you Tom Connor)

Ahha!...... Someone other than me knows the name "Tom Connor". Would somebody please spill the beans and talk a little bit about Mr. Connors? What was he like?

Don (El Paso)

 

[jfarnsworth]

I have been told by at least four unrelated sources (hearsay yes, but unrelated sources lend to it being true) that Huk Planas commonly makes the assertion in his seminars that 2/3 of the techniques in the American Kenpo sysytem violate Kenpo principles and concepts.

He does make reference to something close to that statement except I don't think the number is quite that high.

He then states it's up to the Kenpo practitioners themselves to find out which ones do.

He is trying to make the students think for themselves. How much does someone actually learn when they are being spoon fed continually? To learn and grow in the art (the more advanced the student is) self discovery stays locked in your thought process than someone just giving you the answers of 30+ years of training, learning, refining, re-learning, etc.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Ahha!...... Someone other than me knows the name "Tom Connor". Would somebody please spill the beans and talk a little bit about Mr. Connors? What was he like?
Don (El Paso)

Yep, I knew him, Tom II and Tom III.

Charlotte lives (or used to) about 15 minutes from me.

This is probably not the thread to talk about Mr. Connor's, besides, Bill Packer or Jay Huff, would be able to tell you way more than me.

:asian:

 

[don bohrer]

This is probably not the thread to talk about Mr. Connor's, besides, Bill Packer or Jay Huff, would be able to tell you way more than me.

Okie Dokie

Ahha!...... Someone other than me knows the name "Jay Huff!"

Next time I get a chance to just sit with Mr. Packer I'll ask.

It would be nice if we had a bunch of Traco (akka) members and a few seniors that would visit here. I think I know more about the members of other orgs than I do mine. I feel all alone (sad sad song plays about now) :wah:

Not really EPAK and not really Tracy... :idunno:

:vu: :sadsong: :drinkbeer

Don (El Paso)

 

[Sigung86]

Actually, the original plan that Tom Connor brought to Kenpo marketing was most successfully used by the Tracy Brothers. "Kid" Conatser and I (the old man of the dynamic duo) have had a number of discussions on the history and semantics of old Kenpo. :rofl:

There have been some old Tracy style Black Belts who felt that Tom I was, in fact, a better martial artist than Al Tracy. It's all pretty subjective.

Dennis and I have also agreed in the past that the Parker Kingdom pretty much owes it's current existence to the Tracy Brothers. Had they not spread out with the marketing system that they and Tom Connors had, and had they not mentioned Ed Parker, then many of their early green and brown belts wouldn't have gone from Tracy's to Parker's schools for the simple reason that Parker would promote them to Black degrees... And just so you don't think that I'm suggesting that Al, Will and Jim were angels... There were a few that went the other way too.

It wasn't alll goodness and light in those days. Parker and the Tracy Brothers were working to build martial empires, and a strong business base. Fortunately, or perhaps, unfortunately, depending on your pursuasion, the Tracy Brothers are still able to expound their side of the story and SGM Parker, who I have the greatest respect for, is gone.

But I digress.

Tom Connor went where the opportunity to grow and expand were. The Tracy Brothers (Al being a degreed accountant) knew a good thing when they saw it and the rest, as Dennis and I say, is history.

Tom Connor was no more a philanthropist than either Parker or the Tracys. He was in the art to make a buck. The Tracy Brothers were in the art to make a buck ... Ed Parker was in the art to make a buck.... Nothing wrong with that however.

 

[RCastillo]

Okie Dokie

Ahha!...... Someone other than me knows the name "Jay Huff!"

Next time I get a chance to just sit with Mr. Packer I'll ask.

It would be nice if we had a bunch of Traco (akka) members and a few seniors that would visit here. I think I know more about the members of other orgs than I do mine. I feel all alone (sad sad song plays about now) :wah:

Not really EPAK and not really Tracy... :idunno:

:vu: :sadsong: :drinkbeer

Don (El Paso)

Not to worry Don, I'll buy you a beer, and all the nuts we can eat!

Since you're a Texan, we'll take you in. Gee, this country music is makin me sad too.

BTW, got any change for the jukebox? :uhyeah:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Not to worry Don, I'll buy you a beer, and all the nuts we can eat! Since you're a Texan, we'll take you in. Gee, this country music is makin me sad too. BTW, got any change for the jukebox? :uhyeah:

Watch out Don.......... he's up to no good! Next he'll be asking you to go to Taco Cabanna to buy him food!

opcorn::drinkbeer:anic:

 

[don bohrer]

Not to worry Don, I'll buy you a beer, and all the nuts we can eat! Since you're a Texan, we'll take you in. Gee, this country music is makin me sad too. BTW, got any change for the jukebox?

:ultracool I'm hanging with da big boys now! :cheers:

Yeah I'm a Texan... :supcool:

What kinda dues does a Texan pay? Do I have to.... :whip: or .... :2pistols: somebody?

I've got a few bucks for the Jukebox that I haven't spent on :ladysman: and :drinkbeer yet! Hey no Kidd Rock... he'll get the place doing....
artyon: Would want anybody to spill the beer you're gonna buy me.

Watch out Don.......... he's up to no good! Next he'll be asking you to go to Taco Cabanna to buy him food!

Oh no Texans are to cool to be Taco Cabanna boys! Aren't they? :anic:

Speaking of Mexican food, I like it :rpo: and some I like to kick it up a notch :flammad: and cool it off with a :drinkbeer, but not lite beer.


Don (El Paso)

 

[RCastillo]

:ultracool I'm hanging with da big boys now! :cheers:

Yeah I'm a Texan... :supcool:

What kinda dues does a Texan pay? Do I have to.... :whip: or .... :2pistols: somebody?

I've got a few bucks for the Jukebox that I haven't spent on :ladysman: and :drinkbeer yet! Hey no Kidd Rock... he'll get the place doing....
artyon: Would want anybody to spill the beer you're gonna buy me.




Oh no Texans are to cool to be Taco Cabanna boys! Aren't they? :anic:

Speaking of Mexican food, I like it :rpo: and some I like to kick it up a notch :flammad: and cool it off with a :drinkbeer, but not lite beer.


Don (El Paso)

No dues here!

No, we don't want the music too loud, might get some bikers riled up! :anic:

Pour on the jalepenos,salsa! :cheers:

 

[Goldendragon7]

:ultracool I'm hanging with da big boys now!
Don (El Paso)

Yeah, Ricardo has picked up a couple of pounds!

 

[RCastillo]

Yeah, Ricardo has picked up a couple of pounds!

HAVE NOT! I'm still bout the same, but as slow as ever! :boxing:

 

[don bohrer]

Sigung86,
Thank you for spilling some of the beans!

Don (El Paso)

 

[Gary Crawford]

I used to study Tracy's a looong time ago,I still practice most of the Kata's and sets.I mainly practice JKD.

 

[RCastillo]

I used to study Tracy's a looong time ago,I still practice most of the Kata's and sets.I mainly practice JKD.

With an avatar like that, that seems to be challenging me, whose gonna argue with you?

 

[RCastillo]

Sigung86,
Thank you for spilling some of the beans!

Don (El Paso)

Uh, wait a minute. That burly looking bartender says he overran your tab. What we gonna do? :idunno:

 

[Gary Crawford]

Sorry,I know it's ugly!

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I like your avatar Gary! Can anyone provide a list of all the sets from Tracy's Kenpo?

Thanks,
MJ :asian:

 

[Gary Crawford]

Here is a good source of info http://www.tracyskarate.com/beltsystem_Folder/beltreq.htm