Tracy Kenpo vs. EPAK

The Kai

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Karazenpo said:
I'd like to jump in on the debate with Todd and Koga ha. Imho, Todd is correct in the sense that there is no way 'man' could ever practice a martial art all these centuries and not change it, it's the nature of the beast and it applies to the technological advances of mankind also. I mean we're not exactly commuting to work in donkey carts and we are certainly not communicating right now by carrier pigeon (unless of course you live in the middle east, lol). It's the natural progression of life in general, mankind is constantly evolving, never stagnant and this carries over into it's martial arts.

Originally Posted by koga ha
however, a straight line is still a straight line, a 90 degree angle is still a 90 degree angle, and so on and so forth. in other words, strikes/punches can only come from certain angles.

would you call it altered or increasing your knowledge?

I also understand koga ha's response in the above quote. It's not so much kenpo is evolving, it was always there, 'everything', it's our 'understanding' of kenpo that is actively changing or evolving. As stated in a previous post, human beings naturally have two arms and two legs and martial arts are based on that premise as applied to natural laws. Physics, kiniesiology, body mechcanics, the body in motion and because this is technically a science, we're not 'inventing' anything but discovering applications that have been there since the beginning of the creation of this world. It's the 'way things run'. So, yes, the 'rudiments' or 'natural laws' of all techniques never change but it's our understanding on how to apply them efficiently to changing situations that changes.
Damm, you are one well spoken fellow!! Very good post. 30 years ago would the stuff Doc, Tony Annesi or Bruce Juchnik been recieved? To quote Steve Muhhammed "Mr Parker left us with a wonderfull, thing we are just begining to understand it" I think this applies across the board
Todd
 

Dr. Kenpo

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When it's all said, and done, and I know you'll agree, both do well. Based on the Tracy, and Ak people that I've talked to, that when those that have had violent encounters, they've have always come out on top!

SGM Parker, and Master Tracy have also said, it's the man, not the art, and though I'm a Tracy person, I've learned from both sides, and also learn from others here. As long as "we" kenpoists come out as victors, we all win.:asian:
 
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Karazenpo

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Thanks, Todd. Dr. Kenpo, agreed, it's the man, not the art. It does help to have a nicely balanced and well rounded system, that's a given, but the determining factor in defending yourself is by all means-the individual!
 
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Karazenpo

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Todd, there's a name from the past. Tony Annesi doesn't live too far from me at all or at least he used to last I knew, think he still does, Ashland, Ma. He once wrote a helluva an article in one of the karate mags (it had to be over 15 years ago) comparing Ed Parker and Fred Villari in what they did for propagation of kenpo in their perspective systems. I took it as an open and honest but positive article (directed toward their detractors) that in my opinion, neither man would have been upset with at all. Although, he never referred to them by name per se. He used: Freddy V. and Eddie P., so take it from there, lol.
 

KenpoDave

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The Kai said:
"Mr Parker left us with a wonderfull, thing we are just begining to understand it" I think this applies across the board
Todd

Someone else once said that the true genius of Ed Parker was recognizing what was already there.

Does kenpo evolve? Or does our understanding of it evolve?
 

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

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KenpoDave said:
Someone else once said that the true genius of Ed Parker was recognizing what was already there.

Does kenpo evolve? Or does our understanding of it evolve?
Yes to both. AK-ers who try to keep the standards static miss out on some extreeeemly interesting modifications in kenpo.
 

Old Fat Kenpoka

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KenpoDave said:
Someone else once said that the true genius of Ed Parker was recognizing what was already there.

Does kenpo evolve? Or does our understanding of it evolve?

Yes indeed. Kenpo study could be thought of just like archeology. The longer we study what the dead wrote and said, the more we understand what they were thinking.
 

GAB

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GAB said:
Hi,

Was'nt one of the things EP was disapointed in his Black belts was there lack of ability, not to see that changing some things was not "bad" but good.

Each Black belt was to go out and do the kenpo in a way that suited his or hers body style, strength and weakness's.

Not just to mimic and stagnate, not to not think, and not stay in the confines of what he taught them.

JKD (Bruce Lee) or FMA (Guro Dan) both of them were very much influnced by EP. I also believe Guro Dan influeinced Bruce also. They were a complement to EP and each other.

So in essence when you see the 2 mentioned arts it is with pleasure that EP would watch and say, "I taught them that and they incorporated it into what they are doing, I am proud". Not the other way around.

Just like a musician who has a song and he does it, it becomes a hit. Someone else sings it, and adds a little of there own style, it is a complement.

To stagnate was not what he wanted...Water flows around a rock and continues to the next bend, it is versatile, used for many things and different applications.

I believe that is the thing that he was unable to understand, don't be a xerox machine be an artist.

So EPAK is change and Tracy is no change.

Regards, Gary

Hi KenpoDave,

So EPAK is change and Tracy is no change. ????

There should have been a question mark at the end...

Type O...

Regards, Gary
 

GAB

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Old Fat Kenpoka said:
EPAK = 1980's = yesterday
Tracy's = 1960's = day before yesterday

Yesterday was a good day. So was the day before yesterday.
Hi Kenpo Dave,

Did you read this???

Regards, Gary
 

GAB

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KenpoDave said:
Being that you study NEITHER, I would like to point out that your statement is crap. It is an extremely broad generalization. There have been changes in the Tracy Curriculum since I began. I don't know if the curriculum of EPAKK has changed, but I do know that many instructors teach what they call a newer flavor.

Does kenpo need to change? Again, perhaps the method of training or methods of teaching are updated constantly, but the kenpo remains. If not, well, it's not kenpo.

Hi Kenpo Dave,

Wrong on most of what you said, especially regarding me.
I don't know you and you don't know me.

I do know several who have studied both, I also read and sometimes make mistakes in typing.

I am not an expert but if Tracy's Kenpo is "Kenpo" why did he change it from his original teacher if it is Kenpo?

His teacher changed it from his teacher and called it AK. That teacher changed it from his teacher. And so forth...

Then Al Tracy found it, when Mitose was found??? Right???

Regards, Gary
 

Seig

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Gary, I am not sure if you are being argumentative to gain knowledge or to just argue, but I will answer you.

GAB said:
Hi Kenpo Dave,

Wrong on most of what you said, especially regarding me.
I don't know you and you don't know me.

I do know several who have studied both, I also read and sometimes make mistakes in typing.
I cannot refute that, I have studied both.
I am not an expert but if Tracy's Kenpo is "Kenpo" why did he change it from his original teacher if it is Kenpo?
You know full well that the word Kenpo has become generic, much as Karate has. When the Tracy brothers left Mr. Parker they had the curriculuum he had at the time. Since they were interested in expansion, to make it financially viable, they had to offer more than they had at the time, therby expanding their own curriculuum. They were now in competition with Mr. Parker and to expand their offerings. Tracy's Kenpo was their interpretation of what they were doing based on Mr. Parker's teachings, at the time.
His teacher changed it from his teacher and called it AK. That teacher changed it from his teacher. And so forth...
That all depends on the instructor you are dealing with. When Mr. Parker was developping his system, it was indeed very different from what he learned from Professor Chow. Mr. Parker had influences from many of the great Masters of the era, not just one or two.
Then Al Tracy found it, when Mitose was found??? Right???

Regards, Gary
I'm not sure what you are asking or implying here.
 

GAB

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Hi Seig:

I tried earlier to post and had a good one going and accidently flushed it.

I will get back later.

I would like to hear from KenpoDave on this though.

I have a 2 hour training session with Sensei George Santana.

KenpoDave have you heard of him???

Regards, Gary
 

KenpoDave

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GAB said:
Hi Kenpo Dave,

Wrong on most of what you said, especially regarding me.
I don't know you and you don't know me.

I do know several who have studied both, I also read and sometimes make mistakes in typing.

What I said was being that you study neither Tracy's or Parker's, your statement was crap. Later, you added question marks, which changes you from making a statement to asking a question. That is different.

Since I was mostly wrong, I must ask, which do you study, Tracy's or Parker's?
 

KenpoDave

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GAB said:
I am not an expert but if Tracy's Kenpo is "Kenpo" why did he change it from his original teacher if it is Kenpo?

You said "Parker is change and Tracy is no change." Now you are wanting to know why Tracy's changed? If you were a student of either art, you would not go back and forth so often in your ramblings.

His teacher changed it from his teacher and called it AK. That teacher changed it from his teacher. And so forth...

Then Al Tracy found it, when Mitose was found??? Right???

Are you trying to make a point? Al Tracy found what when Mitose was found?

Yes, I know who George Santana is, and it is good to see that your agenda is staying consistent.
 

GAB

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KenpoDave said:
What I said was being that you study neither Tracy's or Parker's, your statement was crap. Later, you added question marks, which changes you from making a statement to asking a question. That is different.

Since I was mostly wrong, I must ask, which do you study, Tracy's or Parker's?
Hi KenpoDave

I study both, practice FMA.

Regards, Gary
 

koga ha

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Karazenpo said:
I'd like to jump in on the debate with Todd and Koga ha. Imho, Todd is correct in the sense that there is no way 'man' could ever practice a martial art all these centuries and not change it, it's the nature of the beast and it applies to the technological advances of mankind also. I mean we're not exactly commuting to work in donkey carts and we are certainly not communicating right now by carrier pigeon (unless of course you live in the middle east, lol). It's the natural progression of life in general, mankind is constantly evolving, never stagnant and this carries over into it's martial arts.

Originally Posted by koga ha
however, a straight line is still a straight line, a 90 degree angle is still a 90 degree angle, and so on and so forth. in other words, strikes/punches can only come from certain angles.

would you call it altered or increasing your knowledge?

I also understand koga ha's response in the above quote. It's not so much kenpo is evolving, it was always there, 'everything', it's our 'understanding' of kenpo that is actively changing or evolving. As stated in a previous post, human beings naturally have two arms and two legs and martial arts are based on that premise as applied to natural laws. Physics, kiniesiology, body mechcanics, the body in motion and because this is technically a science, we're not 'inventing' anything but discovering applications that have been there since the beginning of the creation of this world. It's the 'way things run'. So, yes, the 'rudiments' or 'natural laws' of all techniques never change but it's our understanding on how to apply them efficiently to changing situations that changes.
ahh, someone sees...anyway, sorry to bring everyone into last week.
 

koga ha

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The Kai said:
I think the issue is that in the simplest terms, yes a straight line is still a straight line. Also true 0 and 1 are only 0 and 1 yet lookis what we can do with them! The timing of the attack, the point of origin, americans increasing famaliarity with the Martial Arts(albiet thru TV and Movies),
There is a difference in a feudal art form that relies on hand to hand only when in the rare cases you are without weapons. Now days not to many of are armed or armored.
While a straight punch is a straight punch, there is a difference between the straight punch thrown by a Shtokan stylist and a boxer! But, yet they are technically the same motion. allthought the timing, retraction and "intent" differ.

Look at the art of streching and conditioning, has this not changed in the last 30 years? remeber at one time it was encouraged for Karate stylist to pound thier fists till the first and second knuckles were even (probaly a throw back to when you needed to punch thru armor). Look thru some of the 1st books published in the states, or read the Bubashi (spelling). Compare to where we are now.

While I'm not the most experience of all people I have managed to be around a little
Thanks
Todd
somone said a mouthful! well, there is no other term when talking about a straight line; a straight line is a straight line, 180 degrees. if that line changes than it's different [it's not straight]. so, technically a straight punch thrown by either stylist is still striaght.

in regards to conditioning, i can say that my conditioning is the same today as it was 30 years ago. however, some of the equipment has changed. instead of using straw to tie something down we use plastic ties. oh, i didn't know that pounding your knuckles was not encourged anymore. well, i've learned one thing. your conditioning and my conditioning are different.

todd, thanks for the discussion.
 

The Kai

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While you are correct in that a straight line is a straight line, again the angles timing, targets all differ. If you work this in a class room things are pretty controlled (Sensei called this the ideal stage). Sometimes people get complacent at this point at how easy it is to controll an opponent!


30 years ago we did duck walks, bunny hops and forced strechs. BTW I don't really know what your conditioning ar training entail so it's hard to make a comparision.

todd
 
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