Toshindo questions: episode 2

Shogun

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Messages
1,067
Reaction score
21
Location
Snohomish county, Washington state
a final SKH question.

I have some of Hayes videos. I watch them. If I send a video test to Hayes (HSC) and he grants me a rank (Ninpo Kihon menjo) does this bar me from the Bujinkan? even if only by video?

thanks peeps (last time I'll say that)

Kyle Elliott (shogun)
 

Enson

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Jun 17, 2004
Messages
959
Reaction score
19
Location
Little Tokyo
Nimravus said:
If regular Bujinkan training is available to you, why would you want to?
well i'm obviously an outsider when it comes to buji and toshindo, so i will just say this:

maybe there is some benefits of toshindo training that shogun's bujin school doesn't offer.:idunno:

peace
 

Enson

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Jun 17, 2004
Messages
959
Reaction score
19
Location
Little Tokyo
Nimravus said:
Overall - not a chance.
why do you say this? have you trained in toshindo? what experience do you have to make such a bold statement?

doesn't really affect me either way... just would like to know.

peace
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Messages
1,503
Reaction score
48
Location
MAP Hell
If you feel the urge to fill in perceived "gaps" in the Bujinkan arts, odds are you haven't studied what's already available enough, or correctly.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Messages
1,503
Reaction score
48
Location
MAP Hell
Unless, of course, you want to participate in competitions and the like. Or, if you find that your interest in something else surpasses that of your interest in the Bujinkan. That is a pretty far cry from cross-training in for example BJJ (which I have done at several times, mind you) because you think it's the only way of defending yourself on the ground.
 
OP
Shogun

Shogun

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Messages
1,067
Reaction score
21
Location
Snohomish county, Washington state
I am in no way saying Bujinkan has holes. Taijutsu (x-kan or otherwise) is IMO the most complete MA. (although you know how I feel about grappling). May I remind you that SKH still teaches the 9 ryuha just as they were taught to him. Before he started his Toshindo he WAS a Shihan.

I try to attend regular class in booj, but the nearest school is 65 miles away. the next closest school is 70 miles away, and the one after that is 250 miles away. and one of those might not be legit, im checking into it. I have purchased the Togakure Kihon Taijutsu Ten ryaku no maki dvds before I found out that I risk booj banning. I really like the Toshindo and think that long distance students shouldnt be affected by ban. We are simply watching videos after all. I am just gathering others opinions.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Messages
1,503
Reaction score
48
Location
MAP Hell
Shogun said:
May I remind you that SKH still teaches the 9 ryuha just as they were taught to him.
As he was taught in the 80's, you mean? That's funny, hardly anyone who regularly trains with Hatsumi sensei these days does.

Shogun said:
Before he started his Toshindo he WAS a Shihan.
Does that mean that you know for a fact he isn't one any longer? And if so, does that not answer your question as to whether or not you're allowed to train with him while still respecting Hatsumi sensei's wishes?
 

Deaf

Green Belt
Joined
Mar 16, 2002
Messages
162
Reaction score
12
Location
Dayton Ohio
This is actually a very simple question to answer. Even though you are "learning by video tape" (which I highly disagree with...video or dvd, make a great supplement to your training but not a great tool to learn from) you are still training and learning from SKH especially if you choose to receive rank from him.

You cannot have both! You either choose to accept the Bujinkan or choose to accept Toshindo. That is by the wish of Hatsumi Soke. It is not a gray matter. It is black and white from my understanding from talking with other higher ranks and admins within the Bujinkan.

If you choose Toshindo then good luck and have fun however do not expect the same type of training nor material that you will get from the Bujinkan. I know from experience!

Everyone has the choice to choose the art they wish to learn. I do not judge a person by that. If you truly learn something of value to yourself then that is all that matters. So good luck in which ever decision or path you choose.

~Deaf~
 

Enson

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Jun 17, 2004
Messages
959
Reaction score
19
Location
Little Tokyo
Deaf said:
You cannot have both! You either choose to accept the Bujinkan or choose to accept Toshindo. That is by the wish of Hatsumi Soke. It is not a gray matter. It is black and white from my understanding from talking with other higher ranks and admins within the Bujinkan.~Deaf~
i have to disagree with this statement. just from what i have read by shiro... who trained at the last taikai in his quest gi... i don't think there should be a problem. i think we have had this conversation before... either that or i'm having "butterfly effect" or something.;)

peace
 
K

kenanderson

Guest
Enson,

Shiro now knows differently. Also, the last tai kai was in Japan earlier this year, and if I recall correctly the tai kai Shiro attended was the one in New Jersey in 2003. That was the last U.S. tai kai. The official statement regarding Mr. Hayes and Toshindo had not been made at that point. It has been made this year, after this year's tai kai. Hope this clears things up for you.

- Ken Anderson
 

Kizaru

Purple Belt
Joined
Jun 12, 2004
Messages
376
Reaction score
27
Location
Chiba Prefecture, Japan
Shogun said:
May I remind you that SKH still teaches the 9 ryuha just as they were taught to him. Before he started his Toshindo he WAS a Shihan.... I really like the Toshindo and think that long distance students shouldnt be affected by ban.
:nuke:Just to throw a little gasoline onto the fire...:nuke:

The names of Judans (and above) are painted on sticks called "Tako" and hung on the walls of the Honbu Dojo with a special place for those who have passed away. Recently, a longtime member of the Bujinkan passed away and his tako was moved to that place. At the same time, other names of people who are no longer part of the Bujinkan were "taken down for cleaning". I'm not a student of Stephen Hayes, but I'll say this, "Stephen Hayes' tako is still hanging up there... "

Draw your own conclusions.

:asian:
 

Deaf

Green Belt
Joined
Mar 16, 2002
Messages
162
Reaction score
12
Location
Dayton Ohio
r erman said:
This ban mess has been discussed to death. Last I heard was that it is a rule that a certain japanese shihan enforced at his dojo and with the agreement of a couple of other shihan tried to make it an official booj rule.

For more info read this:

http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1174&forum=16&start=10


Well that is totally false. Think what you will however do be prepared to the fact that if you are training with SKH, you WILL be turned down by the Bujinkan. This information has been passed down by the Bujinkan Admins during their seminars etc.

Believe what you will. I'm not beating this horse to death anymore within this forum. anyone can private message me if they wish on the subject.

~Deaf~
 

Deaf

Green Belt
Joined
Mar 16, 2002
Messages
162
Reaction score
12
Location
Dayton Ohio
Enson said:
i have to disagree with this statement. just from what i have read by shiro... who trained at the last taikai in his quest gi... i don't think there should be a problem. i think we have had this conversation before... either that or i'm having "butterfly effect" or something.;)

peace


As Ken Anderson stated...shiro was at the Jersey tai kai, BEFORE the ban was implemented.

~Deaf~
 

Don Roley

Senior Master
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
3,522
Reaction score
71
Location
Japan
A couple of clarifications before I get to the meat of my point.

Clarification one- Kyle (Shogun) does nto care what Hatsumi thinks of Hayes or wishes to follow his advice on the matter. The only thing he is interested in is if there will be a fallout from doing as he wants to. He may believe that Hatsumi thinks Hayes is the worst example of charecter, he teaches his students wrong and he does not want people to train with Hayes but as long as he is not banned, he cares not. So can we nip in the bud the posts I feel are coming with stories about what people have heard Hatsumi say about Hayes. If Shogun wants that, he can look at the thread R Erman posted and try to contact some of the people who have posted there privately. We do not need that here.

Clarification two- the word being thrown around in this thread is "banned" but that is not the term used if you bother to get the most direct accounts of the story. There is a difference between words like "banned" and "are not welcome". I can see how after a few tellings one word would morph into another, but the differences between the two are there and are important. I would suggest that interested parties read the book "Illuminated Spirit" to see how things sometimes go in a martial arts dojo in Japan and how the differences may play a role.

Having said that, I now must say that I find the idea little silly. I am talking about getting a certificate or rank from a video course when you think it may be detrimental. Heck, I think the idea of getting a certificate or rank by video to be silly any time. For that matter, I tend to think of the idea of rank altogether as being silly.

What do you need rank or certificates for? If it is something that qualifies you to do something, then it has merit. If you get the same benifit without the need for a nice piece of paper, the only reason I see is to impress others. And I think of working to impress others to be one of the stupidest things I can imagine. There is a reason why I mention my rank in the Japanese language and not my Bujinkan rank. One has relevence here, the other does not.

And videos can not tell the whole picture in something as rich and deep as the arts that make up the Bujinkan. Trying to learn from them for the purposes of getting neat little pieces of paper to impress your friends..... :erg:

Mind you, I have tons of videos. I find them great sources of reference, inspiration and a source of insight from time to time. But there is no way I would think that they contain the sum total of what can be found in the arts headed by Hatsumi. And by accepting some sort of certificate, you are saying that you have a rounded understanding of the subject you have the certificate in.

So....why bother getting the certificates if you already have the videos and the knowledge within them? What purpose would the certificates have? What benifit would they bring to you?

Have you thought about it from that standpoint?
 

gmunoz

Purple Belt
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
350
Reaction score
10
Location
Central CA.
Shogun said:
I am in no way saying Bujinkan has holes. Taijutsu (x-kan or otherwise) is IMO the most complete MA. (although you know how I feel about grappling). May I remind you that SKH still teaches the 9 ryuha just as they were taught to him. Before he started his Toshindo he WAS a Shihan.

I try to attend regular class in booj, but the nearest school is 65 miles away. the next closest school is 70 miles away, and the one after that is 250 miles away. and one of those might not be legit, im checking into it. I have purchased the Togakure Kihon Taijutsu Ten ryaku no maki dvds before I found out that I risk booj banning. I really like the Toshindo and think that long distance students shouldnt be affected by ban. We are simply watching videos after all. I am just gathering others opinions.
Shogun,

I am a To-Shin Do practitioner. I love it. My opinion regarding your situation: I understand you are attempting to supplement your training due to the distance between you and your Bujinkan school. Personally, I applaud your open mind to video training. I too agree that a long distance training by video is incomplete in and of itself. Mr. Hayes is emphatic about the need to have a training partner and attend training seminars. I use these things to supplement my training. To think that someone can look at a video and achieve mastery is ludicrous. Even so, I realize some are appauled by long distance learned and that's okay. To each his own. BUT, why does it seem you haven't asked your school about this supposed "ban" against Mr. Hayes? Why don't you call them and ask them personally instead of relying on a miriad of different opinions from all walks of life and parts of the world via internet? If there is a ban, then your school will tell you. Go with what your teacher says and let that be that. My $.02.
 
OP
Shogun

Shogun

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Messages
1,067
Reaction score
21
Location
Snohomish county, Washington state
Clarification one- Kyle (Shogun) does nto care what Hatsumi thinks of Hayes or wishes to follow his advice on the matter. The only thing he is interested in is if there will be a fallout from doing as he wants to. He may believe that Hatsumi thinks Hayes is the worst example of charecter, he teaches his students wrong and he does not want people to train with Hayes but as long as he is not banned, he cares not. So can we nip in the bud the posts I feel are coming with stories about what people have heard Hatsumi say about Hayes. If Shogun wants that, he can look at the thread R Erman posted and try to contact some of the people who have posted there privately. We do not need that here.
That is incorrect. I would care if I knew the facts. Ken Anderson has told me of a seminar where I can get my answers. Actually, I wanted to know if I could train in both Toshindo AND Bujinkan. Its apparent that I cant. I would never pick videos and occasional seminars over live training and a tight community such as the Bujinkan so case closed on that.

as far as video training:
I, like many on these boards, live all aspects of the martial arts. I practice them several times a week (several types) and when I go home, I watch tapes on them (several types). I order UFC and Pride PPVs, and I talk on MA boards with people like me. Videos are a small but important part of my MA life.

From what I have read, Hayes and Hatsumi are still "friends", but they do different things. thats all.
actually, I dont currently belong to either organization. I am not ranked within the Bujinkan, and I only have dvds from Hayes and Toshindo.

Good training,
Kyle Elliott
 

Cryozombie

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 11, 2003
Messages
9,998
Reaction score
206
Shogun.

I dont see anything wrong with learning from the Toshindo tapes.

I wouldnt bother sending for "mail order rank" from what I learned on a DVD. It is, IMHO stupid. If all you want is mail order rank, you might as well do the Von Donk videos and not have to worry about your status with the Bujinkan.

But if all you really want is a way to supplement your training, by all means, use whatever tapes work for you.

Just my opinion...
 
Top