The Problem with Today's Ninjutsu...

[Yamabushii]

...is marketing (mostly).

Let me digress for a moment and explain a few details of where I'm coming from. I was formerly a member of one of the "big three". My former teacher in Ninpo was a member of most of them. My school was once a full-on Ninpo school, although I had been making many adjustments to the way the techniques were taught for some time, even teaching my students different from what was expected as per the curriculum. After my most recent organization disbanded a couple months ago, I was finally free to teach how I want with no restrictions. In the two or so months I've been on my own, I've seen tremendous growth in my students and their sparring. I don't teach Ninpo as it's taught by the major organizations today nor do I market it as such. My Jujutsu was always stronger than my "Ninpo Taijutsu", so I was able to combine that with my other former martial arts experiences to develop a new combatives-focused curriculum.

For a while now, I've realized the flaws in the training methodology of most of the techniques in Ninpo. Unrealistic attacks by your partner, little to no resistance, too much role-play, too much theory, and not enough Shinken Gata or true Randori. I learned a lot of concepts, but because I come from prior martial arts experience as well, I was able to associate the concepts with what can and can't work, although I saw most students with no other martial arts experience had trouble converting the theoretical concepts into practical application (Shinken Gata). I'm still just a student and learning as I go along, but I came to a realization that Ninpo, from the big three orgs, are actually just arts for the sake of historical preservation. However, I find it incredibly misleading how so many Ninpo schools advertise themselves as catering to the modern martial arts community as an effective martial art for self-defense.

Heck, in actual Ninjutsu, if you had to fight toe-to-toe then there's a high probability you messed up somewhere. And in those situations, Shinobi would always seek to employ some kind of force multiplier, so why is there such a heavy emphasis on "Budo Taijutsu", "Taijutsu", "Jutaijutsu", etc?

If Ninpo schools were more honest about their training being primarily for the sake of historical preservation, I wouldn't really have any disagreement with it. I do have a new Ninpo teacher now (I have multiple teachers from different disciplines) who is certainly more real-world focused, but it's also because to find value in Ninpo, you have to be able to grasp the concepts and then change them into ways that work in the modern world, something that inexperienced martial artists typically can't, and shouldn't be expected to, be able to do.

For those who members here who are a part of the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan, how are your schools marketed?

PS - For the record, my slate isn't completely clean either. I was once guilty of this for a couple years after I opened my dojo as well.

 

[dunc]

To be honest I've always struggled with the categorisation / marketing of the Bujinkan
When I first encountered the Buj it was marketed as Traditional Japanese Martial Arts and, in the circles I moved in (ie the folk in the UK that were regularly in Japan) people didn't really like or use the term Ninjutsu
Of course the correct term is Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, but that's kinda impenetrable for most people looking to start a martial art and doesn't really work from a marketing perspective
Personally I use both Bujinkan and Japanese Jujutsu interchangeably. However, as the vast majority of the curriculum that I teach is essentially jujutsu and given the quality control issues affecting the Bujinkan's reputation I'm increasingly leaning towards simply marketing it as Japanese Jujutsu
The problem with that is that the majority of Japanese Jujutsu clubs/styles in the UK are not really that so it's far from perfect as a category
So I'm kinda stuck......

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'd question exactly how accurate the X-kan arts are in terms of historical preservation. The Bujinkan may be rooted in 3 verifiable koryu arts (and 6 more which may be recreations based on Takamatsu's research, although we probably will never know for sure). But Hatsumi has put so much of his own spin and creativity and personal interpretation into the system that it's hard to argue in favor of it being historical unless you limit your study to the specific techniques in the scrolls from the foundation arts. (Even for those, I've read that Takamatsu made changes from the main lines of those ryu when he made his own branches. I don't know how significant those changes were, so they may or may not affect the historicity of the arts.)

Unfortunately, Hatsumi's personal creative interpretation and blending of the systems doesn't appear to be based in any sort of real life fight experience or stress testing, so it's also hard to argue that they amount to any sort of update for modern combative needs.

I don't have any experience with the Genbukan or Jinenkan, so I can't comment on how much the same might apply to them.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I'm gonna second the historical preservation skepticism. Keep in mind, I love ninjas almost as much as Kung Fu, but I really don't like the schools for the same seasons you guys mentioned.

I think the big ninja orgs are mostly anachronistic role playing, with dabbles of people with actual jujutsu/judo skills, which rarely get used in class (because as OP pointed out, if they did actual randori etc, people would complain less). And things like the magic sword test are just silly imho.

There are definitely people in the big orgs that devote themselves to historical research (for better or worse), but as far as I know no modern ninjutsu "lineage" is considered historical by Japanese authorities.

There are legit ninja relics out there, in museums, old literature, wood block art, etc, but nothing really in terms of people, which differs ninjutsu from pretty much every single other Japanese art.

Now, people will make the argument that ninjutsu was a secret and that explains things. But there were all sorts of secrets in ancient Japan that didn't stay that way, so reasonably there should be whole clans of ninjas on record, and lots of people with historical ties. What we actually have are people claiming things without evidence.

Bujinkan in particular, mostly falls on the claims of one guy, which in any other situation would be sus. And I remember when Hatsumi used to claim he had special ninja scrolls etc that proved his claims. But of course, no one is allowed to see the scroll! And as soon as someone did, it was not impressive to an objective person, rather something of a macguffin.

 

[Hot Lunch]

There are definitely people in the big orgs that devote themselves to historical research (for better or worse), but as far as I know no modern ninjutsu "lineage" is considered historical by Japanese authorities.

There are none. The last legit ninja was Seiko Fujita, and he died in 1966 with no heirs to carry on Koga-ryu. The last intel missions he was sent on by the Japanese government was during World War II. Anyone claiming to be a ninja now is just as credible as someone claiming to be a Persian Immortal.

 

[Yamabushii]

I'm gonna second the historical preservation skepticism. Keep in mind, I love ninjas almost as much as Kung Fu, but I really don't like the schools for the same seasons you guys mentioned.

I think the big ninja orgs are mostly anachronistic role playing, with dabbles of people with actual jujutsu/judo skills, which rarely get used in class (because as OP pointed out, if they did actual randori etc, people would complain less). And things like the magic sword test are just silly imho.

There are definitely people in the big orgs that devote themselves to historical research (for better or worse), but as far as I know no modern ninjutsu "lineage" is considered historical by Japanese authorities.

There are legit ninja relics out there, in museums, old literature, wood block art, etc, but nothing really in terms of people, which differs ninjutsu from pretty much every single other Japanese art.

Now, people will make the argument that ninjutsu was a secret and that explains things. But there were all sorts of secrets in ancient Japan that didn't stay that way, so reasonably there should be whole clans of ninjas on record, and lots of people with historical ties. What we actually have are people claiming things without evidence.

Bujinkan in particular, mostly falls on the claims of one guy, which in any other situation would be sus. And I remember when Hatsumi used to claim he had special ninja scrolls etc that proved his claims. But of course, no one is allowed to see the scroll! And as soon as someone did, it was not impressive to an objective person, rather something of a macguffin.

There was an interesting video I watched by The Karate Nerd, Jesse Enkamp, where he discussed how mainland Japanese karate began to focus more on internalization and spirituality post-WWII, as Japanese society seemed to deeply contemplate some of their country's decisions after they were nuked. Honestly I believe that happened to Japanese martial arts as a whole, not just Karate. So in terms of Ninpo, what's taught today is mostly Taijutsu (including Jujutsu/Jutaijutsu/Aikijujutsu/etc.), even though almost any historical scripture on the Shinobi clearly discussed the use of military tactics like subterfuge, espionage, disguise, concealment, survivalism, weapons, and so many things OTHER than Taijutsu. Granted, some people in the X-kans are specific in that they say they practice "Ninpo Taijutsu" which is fair, but no one can effectively use "Ninpo Taijutsu" in any real encounter today unless the technique has come from Jujutsu (most of Ninpo Taijutsu is from some form of Jujutsu) or it's LARPing with your Uke.

I'd question exactly how accurate the X-kan arts are in terms of historical preservation. The Bujinkan may be rooted in 3 verifiable koryu arts (and 6 more which may be recreations based on Takamatsu's research, although we probably will never know for sure). But Hatsumi has put so much of his own spin and creativity and personal interpretation into the system that it's hard to argue in favor of it being historical unless you limit your study to the specific techniques in the scrolls from the foundation arts. (Even for those, I've read that Takamatsu made changes from the main lines of those ryu when he made his own branches. I don't know how significant those changes were, so they may or may not affect the historicity of the arts.)

Unfortunately, Hatsumi's personal creative interpretation and blending of the systems doesn't appear to be based in any sort of real life fight experience or stress testing, so it's also hard to argue that they amount to any sort of update for modern combative needs.

I don't have any experience with the Genbukan or Jinenkan, so I can't comment on how much the same might apply to them.

I'm with you on this. It's easy to want to believe this stuff when you're actually in an organization and want to believe anything your infallible grandmaster may say, but my opinion is that that's typically rooted from a strong sense of bias and not objectivity. Obviously, I was once in that boat as well. My direct experience was directly with the Genbukan, and while most of my experiences were overwhelmingly positive, that began to quickly take a turn for the worst when Tanemura started casting out a lot of his most loyal students (including 2 of his top Shihan who now both have their own orgs). I believe the only two Shihan left now are his son and nephew, so...family. Tanemura is indeed a highly skilled martial artist, I would never take that away from him, but his inability to spread his experience from decades in the Tokyo police force into his curriculum was questionable. He obviously had his own perspective on Takamatsu granting him certain Menkyo Kaiden shortly prior to his passing, but no one really knows what's true.

To be honest I've always struggled with the categorisation / marketing of the Bujinkan

When I first encountered the Buj it was marketed as Traditional Japanese Martial Arts and, in the circles I moved in (ie the folk in the UK that were regularly in Japan) people didn't really like or use the term Ninjutsu
Of course the correct term is Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, but that's kinda impenetrable for most people looking to start a martial art and doesn't really work from a marketing perspective
Personally I use both Bujinkan and Japanese Jujutsu interchangeably. However, as the vast majority of the curriculum that I teach is essentially jujutsu and given the quality control issues affecting the Bujinkan's reputation I'm increasingly leaning towards simply marketing it as Japanese Jujutsu
The problem with that is that the majority of Japanese Jujutsu clubs/styles in the UK are not really that so it's far from perfect as a category
So I'm kinda stuck......

As I understand it, Hatsumi (like Tanemura) came from former Samurai families. I was never in the Buj but I feel like Hatsumi gravitated more towards his Samurai lineage hence referring to his Ninpo as "Budo", even though it really just means 'martial way'. Tanemura on the other hand seemed to be a lot more closely attached to the pure ninja side, but one thing I did really like about Tanemura was that he actually was a really solid martial artist - which isn't hard to believe considering he spent over 34 or so years in the Tokyo police force and a detective. But like you, I'm not really sure what they were thinking and I gave up a while ago trying to understand.

Regarding Jujutsu, that's how I market my school now. Fortunately I have zero competition with JJJ schools in my area even though it's very populated, but there are still people who like to ask what kind of JJJ I teach. I just tell them it's a hybrid-system, but its core systems are from Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei (Tanemura system) and Daiwado Jujutsu (Sato Kinbei system) - though I've changed them so much it would likely be difficult for anyone to be able to tell today. At the end of the day, JJJ is far better for marketing than Ninpo if your target audience is adults.

 

[Yamabushii]

There are none. The last legit ninja was Seiko Fujita, and he died in 1966 with no heirs to carry on Koga-ryu. The last intel missions he was sent on by the Japanese government was during World War II. Anyone claiming to be a ninja now is just as credible as someone claiming to be a Persian Immortal.

To be fair, no one truly knows when the last one really died. Even the Bansenshukai makes reference that the legendary Sannin were only the greatest Shinobi that the public knew of, not necessarily the greatest Shinobi out there. But at the end of the day, that's the argument the modern Ninpo community has latched onto - so if you can't verify it, it's not worth wasting your time on, because life truly is short and not everyone gets to train forever.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm gonna second the historical preservation skepticism. Keep in mind, I love ninjas almost as much as Kung Fu, but I really don't like the schools for the same seasons you guys mentioned.

I think the big ninja orgs are mostly anachronistic role playing, with dabbles of people with actual jujutsu/judo skills, which rarely get used in class (because as OP pointed out, if they did actual randori etc, people would complain less). And things like the magic sword test are just silly imho.

There are definitely people in the big orgs that devote themselves to historical research (for better or worse), but as far as I know no modern ninjutsu "lineage" is considered historical by Japanese authorities.

There are legit ninja relics out there, in museums, old literature, wood block art, etc, but nothing really in terms of people, which differs ninjutsu from pretty much every single other Japanese art.

Now, people will make the argument that ninjutsu was a secret and that explains things. But there were all sorts of secrets in ancient Japan that didn't stay that way, so reasonably there should be whole clans of ninjas on record, and lots of people with historical ties. What we actually have are people claiming things without evidence.

Bujinkan in particular, mostly falls on the claims of one guy, which in any other situation would be sus. And I remember when Hatsumi used to claim he had special ninja scrolls etc that proved his claims. But of course, no one is allowed to see the scroll! And as soon as someone did, it was not impressive to an objective person, rather something of a macguffin.

You might already know this, but I'm adding a clarification for those who don't ...

The X-kan orginazations do have foundations in verifiable historical Japanese martial arts. However the arts which are historically verifiable are not ninjutsu, and the arts which are ninjutsu are not historically verifiable.

This may be why most X-kan schools have moved away from the "ninja" branding. For example, the Bujinkan curriculum is primarily referred to as "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu", which is a more accurate term. Even back in the day when the "ninja" label was used as a major marketing tool, the vast majority of what was taught was not drawn from the supposed Bujinkan ninjutsu arts.

 

[Hot Lunch]

To be fair, no one truly knows when the last one really died.

Yes, we do. The Japanese government is the arbiter, and the Japanese government says that Seiko Fujita is the last ninja. The case is closed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, we do. The Japanese government is the arbiter, and the Japanese government says that Seiko Fujita is the last ninja. The case is closed.

I'm no expert on this tradition, so I have a question: was the term "ninja" (or "shinobi") only used for government agents? If not, why is the government the only possible arbiter of this?

 

[Yamabushii]

Yes, we do. The Japanese government is the arbiter, and the Japanese government says that Seiko Fujita is the last ninja. The case is closed.

Since when did all "ninja" register themselves with the government?

 

[Hot Lunch]

I'm no expert on this tradition, so I have a question: was the term "ninja" (or "shinobi") only used for government agents?

Typically by the Japanese government or down to the domain (prefecture) level and, during the feudal era, by daimyo.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Since when did all "ninja" register themselves with the government?

Since the beginning.

 

[Yamabushii]

Since the beginning.

Oh really? Tell me again how the shinobi were affiliated with the government prior to Oda's invasion of Iga?

 

[Hot Lunch]

Oh really? Tell me again how the shinobi were affiliated with the government prior to Oda's invasion of Iga?

They were hired by daimyos. I said this already.

 

[Yamabushii]

They were hired by daimyos. I said this already.

Shinobi weren't widespread across Japan until after the 2nd Oda invasion of Iga. Prior to that, the bulk of shinobi were centralized in the Iga and Koga provinces. I won't argue there may have been outliers in other areas of Japan, but regarding shinobi it's common historical knowledge that the Iga/Koga operated separately from the emperor/daimyo/shogun of Japan prior to Oda's war with them.

Are you making this stuff up or have you actually done research on this topic?

 

[Hot Lunch]

Shinobi weren't widespread across Japan until after the 2nd Oda invasion of Iga.

Defending territory. Sounds like the kind of things militaries do. In any case, however you have to interpret things to maintain your beliefs, you're free to do so. What I know is this: once again, the Japanese government says that no ninjas have existed since the death of Seiko Fujita. Win, lose, or draw; arguing with me isn't going to change the fact that the Japanese government is the bigger beast that you can't slay in this argument.

 

[Yamabushii]

Defending territory. Sounds like the kind of things militaries do. In any case, however you have to interpret things to maintain your beliefs, you're free to do so. What I know is this: once again, the Japanese government says that no ninjas have existed since the death of Seiko Fujita. Win, lose, or draw; arguing with me isn't going to change the fact that the Japanese government is the bigger beast that you can't slay in this argument.

Oh I'm not arguing with you. It's very clear you haven't actually performed any research on shinobi history. Obviously you choosing to believe the government is up to you, but there are a lot of gaps in the information you're presenting here. "Government" is a big word and there are various departments. You're specifically referring to the military side of the govt, which only makes the claim that Fujita was the last active ninja. However, their govt also Jinichi Kawakami is an authentic Soke of ninjutsu lineage - he also happens to be the director of the Iga Ninja Museum. Personally I don't know if I believe him, and I don't trust that just because the govt's last supposed dealing with an active Ninja was Fujita, to me that doesn't rule out there may have been others who were never under the spotlight or created their own organization...which is why I made a reference to the Bansenshukai which made it very clear there were many shinobi whose names were never recorded.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Oh I'm not arguing with you. It's very clear you haven't actually performed any research on shinobi history.

To you, "research" means learning whatever YOUR school is teaching.

Obviously you choosing to believe the government is up to you, but there are a lot of gaps in the information you're presenting here. "Government" is a big word and there are various departments. You're specifically referring to the military side of the govt, which only makes the claim that Fujita was the last active ninja. However, their govt also Jinichi Kawakami is an authentic Soke of ninjutsu lineage - he also happens to be the director of the Iga Ninja Museum.

That museum says he's the last ninja. Not the Japanese goverment.

Personally I don't know if I believe him, and I don't trust that just because the govt's last supposed dealing with an active Ninja was Fujita, to me that doesn't rule out there may have been others who were never under the spotlight or created their own organization...which is why I made a reference to the Bansenshukai which made it very clear there were many shinobi whose names were never recorded.

Do you believe that you can debate a Japanese government official on this and win?

 

[Yamabushii]

To you, "research" means learning whatever YOUR school is teaching.


That museum says he's the last ninja. Not the Japanese goverment.


Do you believe that you can debate a Japanese government official on this and win?

You've made quite a bit of generalizations here and I'm losing interest in this debate with you. First off if you read any of my other posts in this thread then you would have seen my school isn't Ninpo. I've also read several books about Ninjutsu and have studied its history for quite a while. I also expressed my agreement with the others that I also believe the version of history that today's modern Ninpo grandmasters share are skewed and questionable. What I presented to you was actual historical facts about large groups of shinobi who weren't affiliated with govt. I don't care if you choose to believe or not believe the govt, but it's very obvious a govt doesn't always know what doesn't exist. I literally just said "you don't know what you don't know" and your response was "no I know everything". I'm not really interested in carrying this debate with you any further. Plus it's really off topic any way.