TMA vs MMA Revisited, A different type of debate.

[shesulsa]

I continue to have this problem with the cookie-cutter mentality when it comes to martial arts training no matter its variety.

The consistent arguments are that BJJers or MMAers are in best physical condition when that may or may not be true, that all TMAs are based on a laundry list one checks off before each grading which may or may not be true, that all TMAs are training in archaic techniques, the use of which have been outgrown or outlearned, etcetera.

The TRUTH is that each class is basically different, that every teacher is unique and there are GREAT TMA teachers teaching their ART and extra RBSD material out of a gym or a garage because they don't care about money, they care about teaching what works. There are MMA centers that only care about money and tournament and do no better than the infamous mcdojos.

I've said it more than once and I'll say it a thousand times more; train for your need, train for your passion and train responsibly.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ussually we speak of arts as divided into sport arts, TMAs, and RBSD systems.

First if you divide into traditional martial arts and reality based self-defense you do realize you are making the statement that all TMA is not based in reality.

Also if these are the categories where does Sanhou fall in this category and where does non-sport sanshou fall in this category and where does Xingyiquan fall in this category and where do Judo, TKD, Jujitsu, Ninjutsu, kravmagna, etc fall in these 2 categories?

 

[Rook]

First if you divide into traditional martial arts and reality based self-defense you do realize you are making the statement that all TMA is not based in reality.

I prefer to think of the terms sport, traditional and reality based as just another way to tell arts apart, not as a name that conveys an accurate reflection of all that is contained in an art.

Let me put it this way, if I study an open hand art that I feel is both hard and soft, would that mean I can say I study Goju ryu karate - after all the name literally means "Hard-Soft empty hand?" I see this division as being no different. Sport arts like wrestling may have strong traditions and be well founded for use in reality self defense, but are still considered sports arts. Traditional arts like shui chaio can be practiced in sports settings and may also be useful in reality, but are still considered traditional.

Also if these are the categories where does Sanhou

Sport art.

fall in this category and where does non-sport sanshou fall in this category

Don't know enough about non-sport sanshou to tell you.

[quote and where does Xingyiquan[/quote]

Traditional.

fall in this category and where do Judo,

Sport.

TKD,

Some sport, but mostly traditional.

Jujitsu,

Traditional.

Ninjutsu,

Traditional.

kravmagna,

RBSD. Sometime heavily influenced from either sport or traditional..

etc fall in these 2 categories?[/quote]

Hopefully that helps clear it up.

 

[shesulsa]

Categorize schmategorize. Train for what you need from whom you need it.

 

[The Master]

Got this "Stupid idea for a thread."
Most likely someone incapable of understanding the question.

Back on topic.
I think most of you have got it.
I'm not looking for someone to say that "X" is the best, greatest, whatever.
I also asked in the self defense forum for a reason.

There are numerous traditional arts that are beautiful arts. But in todays world, they no longer are defensive arts, and they make no claim to be so. Kendo, Kyudo to name 2.
Other arts tend to be blurry, and I won't even get into the "defensive arts of Tae Bo" here.

Taken at it's core, in a physical confrontation, one of your goals is to incapacitate your attacker. Bowing, salutations, and koans don't do that, only technique does. The MMA community be they sport or street minded, tends to seek that which works, and weed out the rest. Many TMA practitioners subconciously do that as well, focusing more on the modern effectives while trying to preserve the ancient. Other TMA people will cross train seeking to compensate or compliment as they see fit. A Kenpoist for example will often cross train in the Filipino arts due to their focus on stick and knife work, or BJJ for the focus on ground work. Many martial artists own firearms and enjoy their use, yet train in arts that have little to anything to do with defense against firearms. The sport mindset for example has no training for weapons, since weapon use in the ring is not allowed. Street fighter techniques, ring rules and battlefield mindsets are not a good combination, in my opinion.

So the question is poised, and the thread is intended to be a sort of free flow, to explore different mindsets, different arts and techniques, and allow the reader to answer for themself questions like "If I wanted to learn how to use and defend against a blade, is Bando something I should look at?" without having to know in advance, that Bando even existed.


Some background: I cross train. I hold rank in several arts, but do not worry about it as I will ask an instructor to teach me something that solves a current problem, even when it may be some levels higher than my current rank. I wanted to learn how to punch better, harder, faster. I was told :Talk to a boxer. I wanted to add diversity to my punches yet maintain the previously mentioned skills. I was told : Karate.etc.

So, after reading large tracts of "my art is better than your art", and seeking a self defense based approach, and realizing that its all self defense, though the level is different, I asked. After all, regardless if one is seeking to avoid confrontation, block a point from being scored, stop a friend from doing harm, or handling a 10 on 1 pile on, it's all a defensive action, right? Just that the techniques used, and level of reply will vary.

 

[shesulsa]

Taken at it's core, in a physical confrontation, one of your goals is to incapacitate your attacker.

Is it? What about if a slap on the wrist (quite literally) or in the face is enough? And why does that matter?

See, here's the thing - it's oh-so-easy to say that you want to incapacitate anyone who has committed to a physical attack on your person. In TMA we use the term "neutralize the attack" which means you use only what you have to use and no more. Some people think that's a fearful way to approach the situation and would rather break an arm or a leg or knock/choke someone out so the 'victim' no longer has the worry. But I'll take this money to the bank - overdo it and you're going to jail no matter what the bad guy did to you.

The application of martial skills requires responsible discernment and every single citizen is accountable for what they know and how they use it no matter what "it" is. If a dood tries to take your old lady's purse, you scoop the leg, slam him down and dislocate/break his knee and choke him out so he doesn't go anywhere until the cops get there, you're likely to be brought up on unnecessary violence charges or out-and-out assault.

Of course there is the famous saying, "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" ... well, friend, you'd better be DAMNED sure it was a death threat because nowadays they even question L.A. cops.

Bowing, salutations, and koans don't do that, only technique does.

Bowing *correctly* can train attitude and humility. Salutations remind one that this is serious business, not just sport and point. Koans challenge one to look within and self-examine, find beauty so that we remember what we value and defend so very passionately. These cultivate spirit and why is that important? Because killing and maiming machines end up in the mental ward at the state pen.

So the question is poised, and the thread is intended to be a sort of free flow, to explore different mindsets, different arts and techniques, and allow the reader to answer for themself questions like "If I wanted to learn how to use and defend against a blade, is Bando something I should look at?" without having to know in advance, that Bando even existed.

Hopefully we can refrain from the usual degradation into "my mucky-muck is better than your mucky-muck."

Some background: I cross train. I hold rank in several arts, but do not worry about it as I will ask an instructor to teach me something that solves a current problem, even when it may be some levels higher than my current rank. I wanted to learn how to punch better, harder, faster. I was told :Talk to a boxer. I wanted to add diversity to my punches yet maintain the previously mentioned skills. I was told : Karate.etc.

So, after reading large tracts of "my art is better than your art", and seeking a self defense based approach, and realizing that its all self defense, though the level is different, I asked. After all, regardless if one is seeking to avoid confrontation, block a point from being scored, stop a friend from doing harm, or handling a 10 on 1 pile on, it's all a defensive action, right? Just that the techniques used, and level of reply will vary.

Approach is everything.

Good luck.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I dunno, a properly applied slap can incapacitate an attacker.
Sometimes they might even say "Thanks I needed that"

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sport arts like wrestling may have strong traditions and be well founded for use in reality self defense, but are still considered sports arts. Traditional arts like shui chaio can be practiced in sports settings and may also be useful in reality, but are still considered traditional.

So then is RBSD defined as one that originated as sport or just one that can be done as a sport?

 

[zDom]

I dunno, a properly applied slap can incapacitate an attacker.
Sometimes they might even say "Thanks I needed that"

A slap can kill.

My sister dated a guy whose dad (a big, burly biker type) did time for manslaughter after learning that the hard way.

 

[Rook]

So then is RBSD defined as one that originated as sport or just one that can be done as a sport?

Neither. "RB"SD is a marketing term that denotes systems that are neither traditional nor sport. Ussually they claim to prepare you for the "street" very quickly using "simple, effective techniques that anyone can learn." They tend to focus on using gross motor skills in scenario training.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Neither. "RB"SD is a marketing term that denotes systems that are neither traditional nor sport. Ussually they claim to prepare you for the "street" very quickly using "simple, effective techniques that anyone can learn." They tend to focus on using gross motor skills in scenario training.

Thank you

 

[MJS]

Is it? What about if a slap on the wrist (quite literally) or in the face is enough? And why does that matter?

See, here's the thing - it's oh-so-easy to say that you want to incapacitate anyone who has committed to a physical attack on your person. In TMA we use the term "neutralize the attack" which means you use only what you have to use and no more. Some people think that's a fearful way to approach the situation and would rather break an arm or a leg or knock/choke someone out so the 'victim' no longer has the worry. But I'll take this money to the bank - overdo it and you're going to jail no matter what the bad guy did to you.

The application of martial skills requires responsible discernment and every single citizen is accountable for what they know and how they use it no matter what "it" is. If a dood tries to take your old lady's purse, you scoop the leg, slam him down and dislocate/break his knee and choke him out so he doesn't go anywhere until the cops get there, you're likely to be brought up on unnecessary violence charges or out-and-out assault.

Of course there is the famous saying, "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" ... well, friend, you'd better be DAMNED sure it was a death threat because nowadays they even question L.A. cops.




Bowing *correctly* can train attitude and humility. Salutations remind one that this is serious business, not just sport and point. Koans challenge one to look within and self-examine, find beauty so that we remember what we value and defend so very passionately. These cultivate spirit and why is that important? Because killing and maiming machines end up in the mental ward at the state pen.


Hopefully we can refrain from the usual degradation into "my mucky-muck is better than your mucky-muck."


Approach is everything.

Good luck.

Good points. And yes, this goes right back to the original question...how people train and how the techniques are applied. I feel that MMA is capable of controlling. Hell, we see it all the time, when the two fighters are stalling. But, as you said, a takedown thats going to slam the person to the ground, may, in the long run, do more harm than good.

 

[Rook]

Good points. And yes, this goes right back to the original question...how people train and how the techniques are applied. I feel that MMA is capable of controlling. Hell, we see it all the time, when the two fighters are stalling. But, as you said, a takedown thats going to slam the person to the ground, may, in the long run, do more harm than good.

Part of the beauty of sports techniques is that many of them can be done at various levels of effect.

For almost any takedown, you can control whether you simply unbalance them enough that they fall or slam them with doubleweighting. This is true of anything from wrestling takedowns to judo thows to grecoroman. A proficient grappler can even slow down the other persons fall if she or he chooses to.

You can blood choke someone long enough to weaken them, long enough to make them pass out without damage, and long enough to kill depending on what is necessary. The only different for a blood choke is how long you choose to hang on. That is not true of the trachea chokes, which take much longer to achieve a choke out, cannot be fine tuned for different effects, and risk windpipe damage if you don't know what you are doing and use the appropriate amount of force.

 

[MJS]

Part of the beauty of sports techniques is that many of them can be done at various levels of effect.

For almost any takedown, you can control whether you simply unbalance them enough that they fall or slam them with doubleweighting. This is true of anything from wrestling takedowns to judo thows to grecoroman. A proficient grappler can even slow down the other persons fall if she or he chooses to.

You can blood choke someone long enough to weaken them, long enough to make them pass out without damage, and long enough to kill depending on what is necessary. The only different for a blood choke is how long you choose to hang on. That is not true of the trachea chokes, which take much longer to achieve a choke out, cannot be fine tuned for different effects, and risk windpipe damage if you don't know what you are doing and use the appropriate amount of force.

Another pro is that there are quite a few submissions that can be done from a standing position. Slight adjustments may have to be made, but they still work. :ultracool

 

[Hand Sword]

Yes they do! I see it done every weekend--LOL!

 

[pankration]

There seems to be one point many debaters on this topic overlook: how much punishment can you take? When it comes to technique neither TMA or MMA is better as both have teachers and practitioners who teach mediocrity or perfection. Any martial art works ; it just depends on the circumstances. However, in my experience, boxers, kickboxers and MMA practitioners spar more often at a full contact pace than TMAs do. It may not make them tougher but it does get them used to getting hit. How many fighters win just because they outlasted their opponent?