XYZ is a socialist / communist, revisited

[Bruno@MT]

We've had a couple of these threads lately, including my silly Gingrich thread. Personally I don't like bold, unqualified statements like that because they polarize the debate in non productive ways, while the reality is generally more nuanced. Such arguments rarely end well.

My gingrich thread was a first attempt at highlighting this idea. While it had some entertainment value, I don't think everyone got my reasons for creating it. My point was that anyone can be pictured any way by cherrypicking facts and data to build a case

So I decided to test my theory by seeing if I could turn Palin into a socialist or a communist. I also decided against creating a 'Palin is a socialist' thread because the underlying message would probably be lost. So I created this thread and put up a couple of paragraphs exaplaining why I wanted to pain Palin with the red brush.
As luck would have it, I really did not have to search long before digging up this.
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/gov-sarah-palins-record-on-taxes-and-spending/

One of her signature accomplishments as governor was a $1.5 billion tax increase on oil production, infuriating oil companies, according to The New York Times. She accused oil companies of bribing legislators to keep taxes low and, soon after, passed a $1,200 “energy rebate” to each Alaskan from the state’s budget surplus.

So you see, even the staunchest right winger can be painted red with minimal effort.

With 2012 campaigning approaching I think it is a given that emotions will run high again.
Perhaps political debate will be more productive if both sides refrain from intentionally making polarized catch-phrase statements or link provocative excerpts without discussion starter. Those things really do nothing except fan the flames of the bonfire on which rationality is executed.

At the very least, it would make the lives of the site staff easier during the election season, for which the mods would all be grateful. Pretty please with sugar on top?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Now get her to come across as a Fascist and you got something

 

[granfire]

Now get her to come across as a Fascist and you got something

LOL, come on, I bet that one is a gimme!

 

[Steve]

While I agree, it's clear that the polarizing statements are what motivate a couple of people to post. It's fun for them, and to expect them to stop is unrealistic. There's nothing in the rules about it, and they generate posts, if nothing else. As long as there are a couple of people here who disagree, the threads generate site traffic.

Tez has quietly disappeared. Others have followed. This site, like it or not, is changing personalities. It has always trended conservative (American Conservative), but has drifted further in that direction to the point that some feel unwelcome.

Can anything be done? Should it? Not necessarily. I think it just... is.

I'm still operating under the premise that this is "fun" for me. If it remains fun, I'll continue to post. When it's not fun, I just won't feel any compulsion to check the threads anymore. As it is, outside of the rare grappling oriented thread, the general MA thread or a movie related thread, I seldom bother anymore.

 

[Xue Sheng]

While I agree, it's clear that the polarizing statements are what motivate a couple of people to post. It's fun for them, and to expect them to stop is unrealistic. There's nothing in the rules about it, and they generate posts, if nothing else. As long as there are a couple of people here who disagree, the threads generate site traffic.

Tez has quietly disappeared. Others have followed. This site, like it or not, is changing personalities. It has always trended conservative (American Conservative), but has drifted further in that direction to the point that some feel unwelcome.

Can anything be done? Should it? Not necessarily. I think it just... is.

I'm still operating under the premise that this is "fun" for me. If it remains fun, I'll continue to post. When it's not fun, I just won't feel any compulsion to check the threads anymore. As it is, outside of the rare grappling oriented thread, the general MA thread or a movie related thread, I seldom bother anymore.

Been down this road before, a few times, with a few here on MT as it applies to the MA sections of MT and it does not seem to get better and the site has changed a lot since 2006 when I first got here, there are a lot of good people missing. Ironically most of that MA conversation had to do with the question should the study exist on an MA site and is the negativity driving good people away.

 

[Bruno@MT]

While I agree, it's clear that the polarizing statements are what motivate a couple of people to post. It's fun for them, and to expect them to stop is unrealistic. There's nothing in the rules about it, and they generate posts, if nothing else. As long as there are a couple of people here who disagree, the threads generate site traffic.
<snip>

Can anything be done? Should it? Not necessarily. I think it just... is.
<snip>

You are right. There is nothing in the rules about it. however, that does not mean that people should pretend to be something they are not. Imo it is really simple. We are together here on this forum, and have to try and make the best of it (or leave).

So either you're part of the solution, or you're part of the problem. Either you are someone who tries to conduct an honest argument, or you're just a mindless troll.

 

[elder999]

................you're just a mindless troll.

QFT.
:lol:

 

[Cryozombie]

This site, like it or not, is changing personalities. It has always trended conservative (American Conservative), but has drifted further in that direction to the point that some feel unwelcome.

Really, you think so? With the exception of a handful of excessivley Vocal Ubercons, I've always thought the board leaned much further twords the Liberal side. I can rattle off the name of 3 or 4 conservatives, but 10 or 12 whom I would consider liberals.

I admit, that dispite my dislike for both sides, I have been extremely vocal about Liberals recently... much moreso than the Conservatives... I would say this stems from the political mire in my home state and the mess the Democratic party has been making here... I just can't fathom how anyone thinks what they are doing is good; as a result I have been very outspoken against the group. It doesn't, however, make me a Conservative or a Republican... just someone that wants to see some REAL Hope and Change.

 

[Empty Hands]

Really, you think so? With the exception of a handful of excessivley Vocal Ubercons, I've always thought the board leaned much further twords the Liberal side. I can rattle off the name of 3 or 4 conservatives, but 10 or 12 whom I would consider liberals.

I'll split the difference. I feel it used to lean conservative, but now leans liberal at least by the numbers of political posters. Granted, when you normalize for post count due to those Vocal Ubercons, the numbers shift a bit...

 

[Xue Sheng]

So either you're part of the solution, or you're part of the problem. Either you are someone who tries to conduct an honest argument, or you're just a mindless troll.

That has been the stated solution many times for many years now... and you know what... more good people leave and the trolls stay.... so I'm betting this is not the solution

 

[Steve]

Really, you think so? With the exception of a handful of excessivley Vocal Ubercons, I've always thought the board leaned much further twords the Liberal side. I can rattle off the name of 3 or 4 conservatives, but 10 or 12 whom I would consider liberals.

I admit, that dispite my dislike for both sides, I have been extremely vocal about Liberals recently... much moreso than the Conservatives... I would say this stems from the political mire in my home state and the mess the Democratic party has been making here... I just can't fathom how anyone thinks what they are doing is good; as a result I have been very outspoken against the group. It doesn't, however, make me a Conservative or a Republican... just someone that wants to see some REAL Hope and Change.

Here's my point. Most around here consider me to be a liberal, although I almost always end up voting GOP/Libertarian in Washington State elections. Most of my friends consider me to be conservative.

I've said this before on these boards and it's been treated as a joke, but around here being a moderate conservative equates to being a flaming liberal. The scale on this board is skewed Right.

 

[Bruno@MT]

That has been the stated solution many times for many years now... and you know what... more good people leave and the trolls stay.... so I'm betting this is not the solution

True. The people who cause most of the mod work will likely not change their ways, which is sad. However, if enough people read this thread, and 1 or 2 of them stop to think about it and make an effort not to pur oil on the fires, then I have at least achieved something without too much effort.

The main problem as far as I see it - and this opinion is entirely my own and not representative of MT or any of the staff- the problem is that Bob needs traffic because MT is part of his livelihood. A significant part of the traffic is generated in the study.

This means that we have to find a compromise in which site traffic plays an important role. And that precludes taking measures which would actually get rid of the problems. If we wanted to turn the study around, we'd have to start telling people to shape up or ship out. And that would cause a noticeable hit in site traffic.

Another measure which I have taken on my other board is to make the off topic areas invisible until a certain post count and membership time are reached. I don't want newbies to sign up or stick around for the off topic stuff, and I don't want google to find it. If people's main motivation for signing up is not the site topic, then they can get bent for all I care. But again, this would mean a hit in site traffic.

I can tell you that those measures work though. I can't remember the last time we had problems in our off topic areas, and we have people all over the political and religious spectrum, disagreeing with each other on a daily basis. But our ground rule is that everybody has to stay civil and at least semi respectful. If they can't handle that, they are gone. Interestingly though, once you get a sufficiently large group acting like that, it becomes self correcting and we really don't have much work in that area.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Two things

First I do believe you have more faith in humanity than I do

Bob needs traffic because MT is part of his livelihood. A significant part of the traffic is generated in the study.

Second... this is why I stopped complaining, eveybody has to make a living

 

[shesulsa]

True. The people who cause most of the mod work will likely not change their ways, which is sad. However, if enough people read this thread, and 1 or 2 of them stop to think about it and make an effort not to pur oil on the fires, then I have at least achieved something without too much effort.

The main problem as far as I see it - and this opinion is entirely my own and not representative of MT or any of the staff- the problem is that Bob needs traffic because MT is part of his livelihood. A significant part of the traffic is generated in the study.

This means that we have to find a compromise in which site traffic plays an important role. And that precludes taking measures which would actually get rid of the problems. If we wanted to turn the study around, we'd have to start telling people to shape up or ship out. And that would cause a noticeable hit in site traffic.

Another measure which I have taken on my other board is to make the off topic areas invisible until a certain post count and membership time are reached. I don't want newbies to sign up or stick around for the off topic stuff, and I don't want google to find it. If people's main motivation for signing up is not the site topic, then they can get bent for all I care. But again, this would mean a hit in site traffic.

I can tell you that those measures work though. I can't remember the last time we had problems in our off topic areas, and we have people all over the political and religious spectrum, disagreeing with each other on a daily basis. But our ground rule is that everybody has to stay civil and at least semi respectful. If they can't handle that, they are gone. Interestingly though, once you get a sufficiently large group acting like that, it becomes self correcting and we really don't have much work in that area.

The problem with this is what you're seeing right now: What some of us consider 'trolls' post repeated drivel and for a while, it worked, it generated site traffic, it generated discussion and numbers were up. NOW, however, when I load up MT after one day off and I click New Posts I see only two pages of threads where I used to see four or five.

There is no question the site traffic is *down* and there are token few who even post anymore.

I think the membership of the board used to lean more liberal but with a few big personalities allowed to take pot-shots at people for a while, some big name posters (myself included) stopped posting, stopped visiting.

While I think the board is more balanced now, I think that balance is achieved by people who don't really feel one party or the other really *defines* their individual politics, as evidenced by the educated (except for mine) retorts to partyist blather.

Bob used to crack a stiffer whip when it came to personal pot-shots in the political forums. I imagine it's hard to get motivated to do much of anything right now.

It's also hard to find something positive to write about politics in America with the current state of affairs - Three, count 'em THREE wars when Obama said we'd be done with two, a stalling out of the economy, no real action taken towards big corporations moving their workers out of the country, the polarization has only gotten worse and the Democrats remain wimps. That doesn't mean, however, that we can't speak cogently about real issues rather than grasp at straws that make the Right look so effing ridiculous.

Perhaps we could start posting more stuff about ... oh, I dunno ... MARTIAL ARTS???? *considers the topics to start*

 

[Steve]

Two things

First I do believe you have more faith in humanity than I do

Faith in humanity.... is that liberal or conservative?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Faith in humanity.... is that liberal or conservative?

No idea...but I have neither :uhyeah:

 

[granfire]

No idea...but I have neither :uhyeah:

commy bastard....

 

[Xue Sheng]

commy bastard....

No no no no no... I don't have that either

 

[CoryKS]

Has anyone chimed in yet that XYZ isn't a socialist because nobody understands what socialism is except for that really dreamy history teacher they had in 10th grade?

 

[granfire]

Has anyone chimed in yet that XYZ isn't a socialist because nobody understands what socialism is except for that really dreamy history teacher they had in 10th grade?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, you is funny!

I shall try to remember that line though. But since the term 'socialist' is not really used as factual description most of the time, but as insult, does it matter that/if anybody knows what socialism really is?