timing

hkfuie

Purple Belt
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
371
Reaction score
23
Location
USA
I have trained in a few different places and I have been instructed to time my punches/steps in three different ways, all with their own reasons behind them. So, just for fun discussion:

do you:

Step, then strike?

Strike at the same time you step?

Or your strike lands just before your foot lands?
 

Ninebird8

Blue Belt
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
238
Reaction score
14
As you progress, eventually three things happen:

1) Eventually, offense and defense become one, with coordinated strikes and blocks melding with footwork to become one movement instead of separated movements.

2) Eventually, you progress, after much repetition, from using a techinique to reacting naturally and moving your body and mind as one. In other words, the stepping, blocking, and punching, no matter what style, become a quick natural progression, rather than a catch up situation. You become "sooner" rather than faster or quicker.

3) Lastly, as you progress to the highest levels, there is no distinction!!! No wasted time. And, you stop training, and start practicing. What is the difference in these two terms? Training is the continued repetition of movements until they become innate over time.....nothing mitigates this, and ONLY time makes it happen! Practice is when naturalness takes over, and you are converting your technique into a natural movement, without thought! Practice is understanding what the heck you have learned, and applying it!!!

I hope this helps with your timing question. When doing drills, try at all times to step, block, punch as closely together as possible, and breathe occasionally, you will find that helps as well....LOL!
 

terryl965

<center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR
MTS Alumni
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
41,259
Reaction score
340
Location
Grand Prairie Texas
All I know is this I hit before they hit me and hopefully it will continue to be that way. :asian:
 

stickarts

Senior Master
MT Mentor
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jul 6, 2003
Messages
3,902
Reaction score
60
Location
middletown, CT USA
If I am point fighting my strike may get there ahead of my step since its more about a game of tag than it is about power. If I am optimizing my speed and power then the strike lands at the same time as the step.
 

Ninebird8

Blue Belt
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
238
Reaction score
14
Forget my long winded answer, Terry said it better and more succinctly than I ever could.
 

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,374
Reaction score
3,595
Location
Phoenix, AZ
do you:
Step, then strike?
Strike at the same time you step?
Or your strike lands just before your foot lands?

Yes.




OK, seriously any or all of the above, as well as striking without stepping depending on the situation. But then I'm primarily a Wing Tsun fighter so the punches flow very quickly... so you can't step with each and every strike! If you are a long-range hitter and subscribe to the "One punch kill" thinking, you will move differently.
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
I have trained in a few different places and I have been instructed to time my punches/steps in three different ways, all with their own reasons behind them. So, just for fun discussion:

do you:

Step, then strike?

Strike at the same time you step?

Or your strike lands just before your foot lands?

IMO, they all have their merits, and it really comes down to what you are doing. In some cases, the strike will have more power if you're already in a solid stance. However, there are times during SD techniques, where I time my step with the strike, so there is more behind it. :)
 

Kacey

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
16,462
Reaction score
227
Location
Denver, CO
I have trained in a few different places and I have been instructed to time my punches/steps in three different ways, all with their own reasons behind them. So, just for fun discussion:

do you:

Step, then strike?

Strike at the same time you step?

Or your strike lands just before your foot lands?

As Terry said - strike before the other person strikes you! However, which time you use will depend on what you want the outcome to be, how much time you have to think about it, and how much room you have. Practice all three and see which one works best for you - but remember that as you progress and your technique improves, your timing will also change.
 
OP
hkfuie

hkfuie

Purple Belt
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
371
Reaction score
23
Location
USA
ALAS, I was TRYING to come up with SOMETHING so you all would entertain me. All agreed? Back to the drawingboard. What are we to talk about now?
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
23,507
Reaction score
3,852
Location
Northern VA
I have trained in a few different places and I have been instructed to time my punches/steps in three different ways, all with their own reasons behind them. So, just for fun discussion:

do you:

Step, then strike?

Strike at the same time you step?

Or your strike lands just before your foot lands?
All of the above... depending on the purpose of the strike, and the type of power I want to generate.

My principles teach me that the body must power strikes; there are different ways to achieve this. It's also different when it's an offensive strike or a counter-strike.
 

tellner

Senior Master
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,379
Reaction score
240
Location
Orygun
do you:

Step, then strike?
Strike at the same time you step?
Or your strike lands just before your foot lands?

It's a simple question. But simple doesn't always mean easy. Any one of them can be right if you know what you're doing.

I've attached two diagrams. The first one shows two possible timings for the punch (in black) set against the time of the foot (in red). The punch can go anywhere between the two extremes. You might hit early in the phrase so that the strike can make way for the step. Or you might be receiving or alleviating as you step and finish with the punch, more the timing of the second sort. A Dempsey-style march jab would be somewhere in the middle with the movement of the body adding some momentum to the punch.

What you don't want to do is tie the timing of the punch rigidly to the step. It has to be free to move around in the measure. In particular, you don't want to use a timing like the second diagram. The step is slower than the punch. The classic lunge punch that starts with the step and ends at the same moment is structurally slow and only lets you do one thing.
 

Attachments

  • $timings.png
    $timings.png
    1.3 KB · Views: 109
  • $badtiming.png
    $badtiming.png
    2.4 KB · Views: 120

seasoned

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
11,253
Reaction score
1,232
Location
Lives in Texas
I have trained in a few different places and I have been instructed to time my punches/steps in three different ways, all with their own reasons behind them. So, just for fun discussion:

do you:

Step, then strike?

Strike at the same time you step?

Or your strike lands just before your foot lands?

All three, because these are the stages we travel through in our kata, on our way to being able to use this art for self defense. :) And somewhere along the line, try to have sone fun.:wink2:
 
OP
hkfuie

hkfuie

Purple Belt
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
371
Reaction score
23
Location
USA
It's a simple question. But simple doesn't always mean easy. Any one of them can be right if you know what you're doing.

I've attached two diagrams. The first one shows two possible timings for the punch (in black) set against the time of the foot (in red). The punch can go anywhere between the two extremes. You might hit early in the phrase so that the strike can make way for the step. Or you might be receiving or alleviating as you step and finish with the punch, more the timing of the second sort. A Dempsey-style march jab would be somewhere in the middle with the movement of the body adding some momentum to the punch.

What you don't want to do is tie the timing of the punch rigidly to the step. It has to be free to move around in the measure. In particular, you don't want to use a timing like the second diagram. The step is slower than the punch. The classic lunge punch that starts with the step and ends at the same moment is structurally slow and only lets you do one thing.

You rock, Tellner!
 

Traditionalist

Orange Belt
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
94
Reaction score
4
Location
Korea-visiting U.S.
Your should punch should hit before your step so all your power goes to your punch. If you foot hits first then some of your power is detoured to your step (its physics). Don't forget hips too they are important to have a powerful punch too. I'm strictly talking about a reverse punch though.
 
OP
hkfuie

hkfuie

Purple Belt
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
371
Reaction score
23
Location
USA
I definitely get that, Traditionalist, and agree with you. When I wrote my OP I was thinking forms. But then the first person who pointed out that it really happens all three ways in practice (I mean actual usage-like sparring or self-defense), well, for me that kind of killed it. It's just academic now! I was hoping to get at least a little good conversation out of the thread first. YOU get what I originally meant! :)
 

tellner

Senior Master
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,379
Reaction score
240
Location
Orygun
Your should punch should hit before your step so all your power goes to your punch. If you foot hits first then some of your power is detoured to your step (its physics). Don't forget hips too they are important to have a powerful punch too. I'm strictly talking about a reverse punch though.

Do you mean:

  1. The punch should start before and finish before the step?
  2. The punch should start and finish during the step?
  3. Something else entirely?

You may be partially right, dangerously blinkered or completely wrong depending on exactly what you mean.

As for power and how to generate it, well, there are several ways. Yours is only one and not necessarily the most efficient. I'd like to see your analysis of the physics.
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
23,507
Reaction score
3,852
Location
Northern VA
Do you mean:

  1. The punch should start before and finish before the step?
  2. The punch should start and finish during the step?
  3. Something else entirely?

You may be partially right, dangerously blinkered or completely wrong depending on exactly what you mean.

As for power and how to generate it, well, there are several ways. Yours is only one and not necessarily the most efficient. I'd like to see your analysis of the physics.
To build on this -- and my earlier reply -- a little...

For an offensive strike, the step often lands either with or just before the strike is delivered, because the step is carrying the strike into the target past the guards. If it lands before, I'm pivoting or leaning onto that leg in some way as the strike is delivered.

For a more defensive strike or counter strike, the step is often before the strike because the step is part of the defense, and then the strike is delivered from a position of relative safety. Again, there are pivots and leans that help deliver the strike.

A few strikes are deliberately delivered with particular timing, as part of their technique. Sometimes, you may be dropping down with a strike, and that simultaneous step/strike land carries that drop into the movement.

The truth is that this is a really complicated issue, and much easier to demonstrate in than describe! Thanks for making me take a look at it!
 

Latest Discussions

Top