Thrusting Wedge, Twist Of Fate & Parting Wings-Front 2 Hand High Push

[MattJ]

Hi 5-0 Kenpo.

You are hitting on the same thing that I have encountered, when working these techniques. It is fairly easy to manipulate BOTH arms to one direction or the other, but splitting or seperating them is extremely difficult.

I find Carol's comment on the technique being originally taught for a grab, and then changing the attack to make it easier to teach very perplexing. As the student is going to be the end user of the move, wouldn't it make sense to make it easier for the student, as opposed to the teacher?

Not questioning the veracity of the statement from Carol - just the logic! That seems like a poor reason to change the attack.

 

[Hand Sword]

Maybe the tech. was designed to intercept the arms before complete extension.

 

[spiderboy]

Maybe the tech. was designed to intercept the arms before complete extension.

Agreed - If he's had a chance to fully extend the push (and pushes with real intent), surely you would already be 5 feet away sitting on your butt?

Who pushes with fully straightened arms? Unless I'm missing something. Always possible

And if you do survive the initial push, distance will probably have been created (environment allowing), and there's a good chance his arms would already be pulled back, ready to swing a punch etc? Whole new problem then.

If it's a short, aggressive "what's your problem?" sort of multiple push, the tech becomes pre-emptive (ideal?) and would then be done on bent arms?

Just a thought. Interesting thread.

Alex

BKKU

 

[Hand Sword]

That's right, and over before you can respond with the tech.

 

[Doc]

Agreed - If he's had a chance to fully extend the push (and pushes with real intent), surely you would already be 5 feet away sitting on your butt?

Who pushes with fully straightened arms? Unless I'm missing something. Always possible

And if you do survive the initial push, distance will probably have been created (environment allowing), and there's a good chance his arms would already be pulled back, ready to swing a punch etc? Whole new problem then.

If it's a short, aggressive "what's your problem?" sort of multiple push, the tech becomes pre-emptive (ideal?) and would then be done on bent arms?

Just a thought. Interesting thread.

Alex

BKKU

Techniques are not functional, extended arms or not. The arms closer to the torso are even stronger.

 

[MJS]

Techniques are not functional, extended arms or not. The arms closer to the torso are even stronger.

So, that being said, how can they be made more functional while still keeping with a similar format to the technique or what changes if any, need to be made?

IMHO, I really don't see anything wrong with the questions being asked. What I do see though, is people stating that certain things won't work for whatever the reason may be, but then people never provide an answer for a solution. If someone is going to discredit something, fine, but at least provide a solution. You apparently see something wrong with the way techs. are done Doc, but I really don't see what the issue is with the 'secrets.' A number of times people have asked about the SL4 method of doing the techs. but no answer is given.

Mike

 

[Doc]

So, that being said, how can they be made more functional while still keeping with a similar format to the technique or what changes if any, need to be made?

IMHO, I really don't see anything wrong with the questions being asked. What I do see though, is people stating that certain things won't work for whatever the reason may be, but then people never provide an answer for a solution. If someone is going to discredit something, fine, but at least provide a solution. You apparently see something wrong with the way techs. are done Doc, but I really don't see what the issue is with the 'secrets.' A number of times people have asked about the SL4 method of doing the techs. but no answer is given.

Mike

I gave you experiments so you can see for yourself whether or not they're functional. If not, then look for alternate solutions. I'm not trying to recruit someone to the SL-4 Kenpo method. Besides that, if all had to do was tell you to fix a technique, I would. But these techniques are anatomically not functional on any level. First you have to decide what attack you're going to use, and then work on the solutions. I also mentioned that we discussed these techniques over on KenpoTalk. Have a look over there where I gave a possible solution to one of them.

 

[spiderboy]

*packs up MT tent, heads over to KT to dig for a while*

 

[spiderboy]

Ok I have had a look through some old KT posts and have only come up with more questions! (For these questions below I’m visualising Parting Wings.)

Please excuse any mangling of terminology – I’m a noob at this…

Doc described a push as:

“A 'push' by strict definition is an action that has already occurred that you must survive before you can initiate a retaliation response.”

“First you have to decide what attack you're going to use, and then work on the solutions”

I guess my first question for this tech concerns the type of attack. Is the push a one-off push designed to create distance, or a continual, committed push? I have always assumed the first, but isn’t the second just as likely?

“We must move our legs/feet and arms/hands in a specific manner to "absorb" the impact of their 'body momentum,' restructure our lower platform for upper platform support, regain our balance and solidify our stance, as we prep a retaliatory posture.”

Within my training so far we have started to look at surviving a push by taking as few small steps backwards as possible before PAMing with the lead foot into a forward bow, while ‘throwing’ (indexing?) the hands down to the side before raising them above our heads, fingers splayed, chin up and forward. (This can be done several times if the push is committed.)

I think this could end up in at least 2 ways –

With the one-off push: Distance is created, you survive the push and find yourself in a ‘retaliatory posture’ ready to deal with the follow up - be it another push, a punch etc.

With the continual, committed push: You stop the momentum of your attacker, he/she has that “huh?” look as their momentum is stopped, but only for about a half second before your retaliation.

So –

If distance is created, that must be the end of this tech? (More may obviously follow in this encounter.)

If contact is maintained, the tech is still alive – but within the (limited) bounds of what I have already learnt about surviving a committed push, I can’t see how to get ‘inside the attack’ as I have learnt Parting Wings?

I’m not asking for or expecting a full SL-4 tech breakdown for PW, but I am interested to know whether there are ways of surviving this attack that leave you ‘inside’ it.

Excuse the long post, I may be a bit out of my depth here - but i'm eager to learn and I’m sure I’ll hear about it both here and in class if I’m talking rubbish


Respectfully,

Alex

BKKU

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Ever see that thing where one guy drops a dollar bill, the other guy tries to catch it, but it goes by too quickly? It takes the brain time to evaluate scenario, devise a reply, and send the instructional signal to the appropriate muscles...then get them out idle, and into meaningful action.

One of my big kvetches about the push techs is the action-faster-than-reaction thing. Sure...train the heck out of them for a spell, and you'll intercept the attack. However, if we are going to aim our kenpo instruction at aiding most of the people to respond effectively to sudden violence most of the time, we have to operate under a couple assumptions. Some of the most important for pushes are that 1) it will most likely come as a surprise; 2) it will be quick; 3) the environment will likely be pre-hostile to the aggressive action, causing an adrenal dump in you, the defender/counter-attacker.

Surviving the push is easy, particularly if you have ever skateboarded in your life. Backpedal steps, riding the momentum, until you come to a stop. Now what?

If your adrenal glands are firing, you could have one of two likely responses: 1) you're faster and more dialed, and so time the executions for interception perfectly. This comes with spending lots of time in that adrenaline rush state, and learning to move while you're brains on fire and your hands are shaking. More likely is 2) although your perceptive mind works more quickly, and you see the push coming, decided, authoritative responses fom the limbs are...um...slow. Time stands still, but so do your feet, hands, etc. Meaning, ultimately, that if some big angry guy is dead set on pushing you, you're probably going to get pushed. So what? It's a short, quick ride backwards. Keep your feet under you, land firmly when the momentum stops, settle into a combat-ready internal posture with external body correlates, and be ready for the follow-up assault.

As for Carols observation that the techs may have been modified to make them easier to teach, don't discount the idea too quickly. In commercial models, students come and go; the only constant at the studio is the instructor and the lease payment. Looking into "what-if's", any push can also be turned immediately into a grab. That grab can be static, or used to sling your now-misalinged (from the push) butt around like a rag doll. As a student of defense, you need to know what you're going to do to re-establish a functional base after Big Bubba has started slinging you. Commercially, while monitoring liability, there is little you can do to teach little Johnny and his mom what to do in the face of such overwhelming aggression and sudden violence. Enter the benefits of a testosterone-laden backyard school, or a committed instructor looking to pass on quality, and not just meet overhead.

Surviving the Initial Attack (SIA) is an SL4 concept that I (in my own pea little brain) think of as a small technique within the technique that you do before you do the technique. One reason they are hard to write, is they are content rich in a short time (like, 10 things in half a second). Easier than describing the SIA "prefixes" to each of the push techniques, it's easier to say, simply, survive the push. It ain't gonna kill you. What comes NEXT might, so be sure to get your game on fast, and not be psychologically overwhelmed by the suddenness of the assault.

Take Parting Wings...as a non-SL4 (meaning this ain't what Doc sez to do, but it'll give you an idea) survival, count on being propelled backwards with a shove that makes contact. So, before you start whipping your hands in the air like a kenpo spasmodic, take a couple of small cheat steps backwards to give yourself room, and mess with his head a bit about distancing (depth deception). Find a zone of sanctuary, of sorts, out of his reach. Then, as he closes in, you're settled, he's not, and your banging away on him is apt to have better effect. Different than just "step back into a neutral bow".

I've bounced some big dogs...if they push you, your feet are uprooting right out of the NB, and towards the space behind you. Also, by trotting backwards a couple steps, if he HAS turned the push contact into a shirtful of grab, you'll do better at yanking him off his base, making him more vulnerable to a counter, and making it harder for him to establish a base from which to sling you around.

As written, any of the push techs CAN work. But will they? Depends on a lot of things, and if you litmus test them with serious aggression in the attack (front, mouth off, swing a slap at the face, then drive hard with a push as the attacker/uke, and see just how well the defender in the technique line really responds), you'll find most need tweaking -- even at the training level -- to be applicable in the mysterious "street".

2 cents that won't help the national debt,

Dave

 

[Flying Crane]

Another good post, Dave. Thanks.

 

[HKphooey]

Law of averages: Find twenty participants, ask all to push you. Use the results to help you establish what is the most common. I am not trying to say you are incorrect. Just stating there are variables in all experiments.

Ask a few people to throw a straight punch. I bet you will have at least one person cross step with the opposite leg.

You had mentioned non-compliant testing. Telling someone what to do is compliance. That is is not science, that is predetermining the outcome.

I will rest my case with these statements, value your feedback and experiment with your suggestions. In the end, I would not use all three techniques (unless I fight a 6'7"+ opponent).

To the individual who flamed me over the post above, at least have the "jewels" to sign you name. I have no problem with someone giving bad rep points if I have disrepected them, but for not agreeing with them, is very childish. But I guess when one feels threaten, that is the easiest route to take.

flame: "religious devotion to a buzz-word is not flattering. you can do better" Please further your comment.

I would have been happy to continue the discussion off the post like gentlemen.

Please let me know via PM or this thread if you feel I disrepected you in anyway and I will be the first to apologize.

Sincerely,
HKphooey

No back to the thread. Sorry for the interuption.

 

[Carol]

To the individual who flamed me over the post above, at least have the "jewels" to sign you name. I have no problem with someone giving bad rep points if I have disrepected them, but for not agreeing with them, is very childish. But I guess when one feels threaten, that is the easiest route to take.

flame: "religious devotion to a buzz-word is not flattering. you can do better" Please further your comment.

I would have been happy to continue the discussion off the post like gentlemen.

Please let me know via PM or this thread if you feel I disrepected you in anyway and I will be the first to apologize.

Sincerely,
HKphooey

No back to the thread. Sorry for the interuption.

Wayne, you are the last person in the world that I think would be disrespectful or even disagreeable as a trait. I think even the folks that don't share your point of view would agree with that.

Some folks just play games.

 

[Doc]

To the individual who flamed me over the post above, at least have the "jewels" to sign you name. I have no problem with someone giving bad rep points if I have disrepected them, but for not agreeing with them, is very childish. But I guess when one feels threaten, that is the easiest route to take.

flame: "religious devotion to a buzz-word is not flattering. you can do better" Please further your comment.

I would have been happy to continue the discussion off the post like gentlemen.

Please let me know via PM or this thread if you feel I disrepected you in anyway and I will be the first to apologize.

Sincerely,
HKphooey

No back to the thread. Sorry for the interuption.

Don't pay any attention to those things. They serve no purpose as far as I can see. Just keep doing what you do.

 

[kenpohack]

The three techniques are done against pushes at different ranges. Thrusting Wedge is a close push or attempted grab where you see the attack unfold early, so you have time to step in an intercept it. Parting Wings in a committed push. This is why you step back and stabilize. Twist of Fate is a what-if to Parting Wings, in that, you stepped back too far to execute Parting Wings.

The hand formations are not the same for Parting Wings and Thrusting Wedge. This is mostly what causes problems. Thrusting Wedge uses a wedge formation where the hands form almost a triangle shape when they touch. Parting Wings. The way I was taught Parting Wings was to bend the arms at the elbow and keep your arms almost perpendicular to your attackers arms while anchoring your elbows. I've never had a problem parting the arms using this method. Granted, I'm 6'2" 240, but I've been an uke for people that I outweigh by well over a hundred pounds, and they had no problem stopping me. Anyone who knows me knows that I don't train with anything but the most realisitic of attacks. If a hundred pound girl can stop me pushing her with everything I've got, the technique must work.

 

[Hand Sword]

So, that being said, how can they be made more functional while still keeping with a similar format to the technique or what changes if any, need to be made?

IMHO, I really don't see anything wrong with the questions being asked. What I do see though, is people stating that certain things won't work for whatever the reason may be, but then people never provide an answer for a solution. If someone is going to discredit something, fine, but at least provide a solution. You apparently see something wrong with the way techs. are done Doc, but I really don't see what the issue is with the 'secrets.' A number of times people have asked about the SL4 method of doing the techs. but no answer is given.

Mike

:asian:

 

[MJS]

The hand formations are not the same for Parting Wings and Thrusting Wedge. This is mostly what causes problems. Thrusting Wedge uses a wedge formation where the hands form almost a triangle shape when they touch. Parting Wings. The way I was taught Parting Wings was to bend the arms at the elbow and keep your arms almost perpendicular to your attackers arms while anchoring your elbows. I've never had a problem parting the arms using this method. Granted, I'm 6'2" 240, but I've been an uke for people that I outweigh by well over a hundred pounds, and they had no problem stopping me. Anyone who knows me knows that I don't train with anything but the most realisitic of attacks. If a hundred pound girl can stop me pushing her with everything I've got, the technique must work.

Hmm...well, this certainly puts an interesting spin on things! You've apparently had some success with these techniques and I'm guessing that you've done them as written? If thats the case, what are the thoughts on the statements that said that these moves would not work? If you made any adjustments, I'd be interested in hearing what you did.

Mike

 

[Hand Sword]

I would say that the techniques can work and are functional based on a simple comparison. Let's take punches for example. An incoming punch can be blocked/deflected using the opening movements of the aformentioned techniques. Now add, a closed fist makes the arms tighter/firmer than open hands for a push, which would make them more difficult to block, etc.. So, If the blocks can be and are used in the techniques to great efficiency than the less firm pushing arms can and would be if caught before extension.

 

[Bode]

I would say that the techniques can work and are functional based on a simple comparison. Let's take punches for example. An incoming punch can be blocked/deflected using the opening movements of the aformentioned techniques. Now add, a closed fist makes the arms tighter/firmer than open hands for a push, which would make them more difficult to block, etc.. So, If the blocks can be and are used in the techniques to great efficiency than the less firm pushing arms can and would be if caught before extension.

The simple comparison you make is not quite as simple as written. You are failing to take into account the change in structure from a push posture to a punching posture. In addition, you are ignoring the postures effect on the mind and vice versa.

The simple flexing of the wrist when pushing fires all sorts of different muscle that would not be when the wrist is straight and hands clenched. (Calling Dr. Crouch)

 

[Doc]

The simple comparison you make is not quite as simple as written. You are failing to take into account the change in structure from a push posture to a punching posture. In addition, you are ignoring the postures effect on the mind and vice versa.

The simple flexing of the wrist when pushing fires all sorts of different muscle that would not be when the wrist is straight and hands clenched. (Calling Dr. Crouch)

You mean changing one small thing can have a huge effect on structure and execution possibilities? Who would have thought it?
Simplistic comparisons without an extensive understanding of the underlining body mechanics involved in the opposing sides of the physical equation, usually yields dubious and erroneous results, at best.