Thrusting Wedge, Twist Of Fate & Parting Wings-Front 2 Hand High Push

Hand Sword

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Bode said:
The simple comparison you make is not quite as simple as written. You are failing to take into account the change in structure from a push posture to a punching posture. In addition, you are ignoring the postures effect on the mind and vice versa.

The simple flexing of the wrist when pushing fires all sorts of different muscle that would not be when the wrist is straight and hands clenched. (Calling Dr. Crouch)

Nothing is being ignored by me, just breaking it down to basics. Point being the arm is stronger when a punch is coming than a push. Can it be blocked, parried, etc..? Yes. Therefore a push, if caught early enough will be blocked, parried, etc.. Therefore the techniques can be valid.

As far as your little dig Doc:
" Simplistic comparisons without an extensive understanding of the underlining body mechanics involved in the opposing sides of the physical equation, usually yields dubious and erroneous results, at best." [/I]

Totally unnecessary from a personal view and not as much needed from a realistic view. Arms extended with force behind them are what they are. They can, and have been dealt with, without all the trifles that you focus on, being executed perfectly.
 

Doc

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Hand Sword said:
Nothing is being ignored by me, just breaking it down to basics. Point being the arm is stronger when a punch is coming than a push. Can it be blocked, parried, etc..? Yes. Therefore a push, if caught early enough will be blocked, parried, etc.. Therefore the techniques can be valid.

As far as your little dig Doc:
" Simplistic comparisons without an extensive understanding of the underlining body mechanics involved in the opposing sides of the physical equation, usually yields dubious and erroneous results, at best." [/I]

Totally unnecessary from a personal view and not as much needed from a realistic view. Arms extended with force behind them are what they are. They can, and have been dealt with, without all the trifles that you focus on, being executed perfectly.
Sorry, I don't do 'digs' sir. Fact is a push is stronger than a punch, and I break things down because you have to if you are to understand the underlying mechanics of execution and it's possibilities.
 
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MJS

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I'll be heading out to class today. I plan on working these techniques, taking into consideration all of the suggestions, experiments, etc. I'll report my findings later on.:)

Mike
 

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Doc said:
Fact is a push is stronger than a punch, and I break things down because you have to if you are to understand the underlying mechanics of execution and it's possibilities.

Doc, can you elaborate on how you feel a push is "stronger" than a punch? Are you comparing a two handed push to a single punch? I think I see what you may mean in that case, but if you are talking pushing versus punching, my experience has been that punching is stronger and more damaging.
 

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

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MattJ said:
Doc, can you elaborate on how you feel a push is "stronger" than a punch? Are you comparing a two handed push to a single punch? I think I see what you may mean in that case, but if you are talking pushing versus punching, my experience has been that punching is stronger and more damaging.

Neurological feedback can take pleace in fractions of a second. In terms of wrecking power, of course a punch will have more potential...you're throwing a stone, so the rules of ballistics are more apt to apply (mass x acceleration, area of impact being concentrated, blahdy blahdy blah).

But consider a bench press, and the mount of muscle recruitment, as oposed to a open kinematic chain punch.

Traditionally, a closed kinematic chain is when a limb makes contact with something solid, such as the ground, or something rooted to the ground (wall, standing person?). Think squats. Open kinematic chains don't touch something solid. Think thigh extensions. Closed chains give the body more time to proprioceptively clue in to a focus point. Open chain ballistic movements fire harder, but recruit less of the mass of the involved muscles, and lack as much synergistic coordination/cooperation.

Pop a guy in the mouth: Ballistic movement, travelling through most of it's arc without feedback about directional resistance. It could fly wide, low, high, shallow, and you wouldn't proprioceptively know until the moment of impact, and the final miss/hit status. Pushes take more time, and provide your body an oportunity to decide how to get all parties on board in the same direction (all the muscles working together in a group, with instantaneous, ongoing feedback through the spinal cord about who gets on board, where, and with how much emphasis).

Student of mine is in the 400 lbs bench club. Can push like a maniac; I use him for demos, specifically for this purpose. His stance ends up being like a linebacker when launches me bass ackwards. Punching, however, he's much weaker. With time, training, and technique, I'm sure Doc Stone will be a wrecking crew of a puncher. But for now...not as many notes in the symphony of neurologic noise in the punch, as in the push.

Punches hurt more because ofthe focused point of impact. But, unfortunately, there is less muscle involvement in an unclosed ballistic throw, than in a constant-pressure contact.

I could go more into detail, but that would require writing a book. Literally. Just finished reading a text on ballistic throwing biomechanics, and their applications to sports activities such as tennis, golf, and pitching. Exhaustive, and not worth re-typing here. If you want to read it, I'll post the reference. Otherwise, that's all for now. And the jist of it.

Regards,

Dave
 

kenpohack

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MJS said:
Hmm...well, this certainly puts an interesting spin on things!:) You've apparently had some success with these techniques and I'm guessing that you've done them as written? If thats the case, what are the thoughts on the statements that said that these moves would not work? If you made any adjustments, I'd be interested in hearing what you did.

Mike

I've found that the key to these techniques are the nature of the attack. In Thrusting Wedge, you see the attack coming before the opponent maximized the power of the push; hence, you're beating him to the push before he puts his back-up mass behind it. Parting Wings assumes that the opponent has executed a solid push that you cannot side step or parry from the outside (Alternating Maces would be the quick shove that someone gives you before they throw a punch). Parting Wings is a push where someone is trying to shove you back heartily or shove you to the ground. For this technique, you must keep your arms perpendicular to the opponent's arms or he can jam your technique. The hand formation for Parting Wings is different from Thrusting Wedge. I have to anchor my elbows, especially since my instructor is about 6'3", 225 lbs. He is much stronger than I, so if I don't anchor my elbow and keep my arms perpendicular to his, he will jam my arms down and go right through me.

Twist of Fate assumes that you either stepped back too far or the opponent made contact with the push and moved you back out of range for Parting Wings to be executed.
 

Hand Sword

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Doc said:
Sorry, I don't do 'digs' sir. Fact is a push is stronger than a punch, and I break things down because you have to if you are to understand the underlying mechanics of execution and it's possibilities.

With respect, That's the difference between real time Kenpo and Chalkboard Kenpo. Pushes, as is the case in these defenses, are done with the arms and upper body, or half the weight behind them. With them square to you, weakening their balance front to back. They are quick movements, over in a blink. A punch has the whole body behind behind it, with the balance of the opponent strong front to back. You can survive a push everytime, not necessarily a punch.

My point was a simple breakdown as well sir. It's just a push, and the defenses of such. My point was the techniques can be valid if caught early enough. The arms of punch are blocked effectively, and those arms are firmer, stonger and in a tighter position than pushing arms.

Try holding your arm out in front of you with a pushing position. Now change it into a fist. Which feels stronger?
 

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

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A simple rule oif thumb I would offer for consideration. The further away from the body you get...the more joints between your core, and the thing you're exerting a force against...the weaker the force transition. A kne is a more powerfult thrust than a kick...closer to the core by a couple joints. Finger spear versus palm heel versus inward elbow smash. The more joints, the weaker the press. This is why a 400 lb bench press is done with pressing palms, and not fingers. And why the power stroke on a row is through the elbows and whoulders, not wrists and forearms.

From palm heel to fist adds 2 rows of articulating joints to the kinematic chain between you and your contact. Which is more stable with a kid riding on your back...palm-contact push ups, knuckle push ups, or fingertip push ups?

Just a thought,

Dave
 

Hand Sword

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I hear ya! I agree too. My response was just to all of this debating about whether the techniques discussed were valid. Some argued no, and pulled out formulas, equations, etc.. Some said yes. I just showed a simple example of extended arms during a push being not as strong as an incoming punch, and that punches are dealt with, in the same manner as the defenses dicussed.
 

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

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Yeah. After busting my hump to nail timing on push techniques, I had some smarty pants kenpo guy say, "What do you care? They can't really hurt you, and you know exactly where his hands are and what they're doing." Went on to say, since they are occupied and committed to a predictable course of action, you can start being creative in your use of time.

Turns out my favorite push counter is a solid left inward block with footwork, followed by an overhand right and a kick to da nutz. His hands go right on by you, sucking the head in for the counter-shot. Some would say it's too low tech to be kenpo. Hm. I would ask them to guess the identity of the smart aleck who taught me the irreverence for the push techs, and showed me how simple defense ultimately is. The rest is for development and exploration. Scholar, not warrior.

One of his long-time students got me off of spearhands and finger thrusts; eye gouges and throat punches, with similar, simple wisdom. And something about any streetfighter can do that stuff...plus something else about just busting the bad guy in the grill if all you want to do is learn to fight. The rest is for development. Body mechanics. Learning how to get dem bones to work in concert.

But that's just me.
 

Hand Sword

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Sounds good to me too. That's the best Kenpo.
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To me pushes and punches are very different.

I took a lesson at another school, the instructor asked me if I knew the difference between a strike and a punch. I said no. He took two steps back from me and threw a punch at my face. "Those two knuckles" he pointed out. A punch is a strike that leads with the first two knuckles. It provides a concentrated force.

Pushes on the other hand, you can get your entire body weight in to a push, and work in muscles all the way down to your feet pushing off the ground to make something go forwards. I can push my futon and make it move as much as I want. I can't do that by punching it.

At the same time, I can't push someone in the jaw.:idunno:

Just my thoughts and I'm probably making no sense because Stickarts' Arnis class wore me out. (Missed you, HKPhooey!!) :D :D
 

Hand Sword

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Really? I've seen people get shoved at the jaw and face many times. Keep practicing.
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However, you are making sense, and I agree with that kind of push being structurally stronger, having all the limbs closer to the body. But, for real, people don't push like that, unless they are ramming you into something. or trying to bowl you over. Most times you are exchanging words, with them close enough to you. You're square to each other and they just quickly pop you in the chest.
 

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Hand Sword said:
With respect, That's the difference between real time Kenpo and Chalkboard Kenpo.

This week I attended a SL-4 class. You must be insane if you characterize it as "chalkboard" kenpo :) Or you've just never seen it in person. It's as real-time and full-force as it gets. They don't attempt to push - they SHOVE and HARD too. The kind of push that could launch you off your feet. And the techniques work.
 

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Carol Kaur said:
To me pushes and punches are very different.

I took a lesson at another school, the instructor asked me if I knew the difference between a strike and a punch. I said no. He took two steps back from me and threw a punch at my face. "Those two knuckles" he pointed out. A punch is a strike that leads with the first two knuckles. It provides a concentrated force.

Pushes on the other hand, you can get your entire body weight in to a push, and work in muscles all the way down to your feet pushing off the ground to make something go forwards. I can push my futon and make it move as much as I want. I can't do that by punching it.

At the same time, I can't push someone in the jaw.:idunno:

Just my thoughts and I'm probably making no sense because Stickarts' Arnis class wore me out. (Missed you, HKPhooey!!) :D :D

You absolutely can get your entire mass behind a punch or any other strike for that matter. With the use of proper alignment and basics your mass becomes unified with the power principles. This is also where proper depth of attack becomes very important. You have to fully penetrate the dimension you attacking for the maximum effect.
 

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TChase said:
You absolutely can get your entire mass behind a punch or any other strike for that matter. With the use of proper alignment and basics your mass becomes unified with the power principles. This is also where proper depth of attack becomes very important. You have to fully penetrate the dimension you attacking for the maximum effect.

Aha! I'm starting to understand a little better now. I'm a bit slow on the uptake sometimes... :)
 

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Hand Sword said:
With respect, That's the difference between real time Kenpo and Chalkboard Kenpo. Pushes, as is the case in these defenses, are done with the arms and upper body, or half the weight behind them. With them square to you, weakening their balance front to back. They are quick movements, over in a blink. A punch has the whole body behind behind it, with the balance of the opponent strong front to back. You can survive a push everytime, not necessarily a punch(1).

My point was a simple breakdown as well sir. It's just a push, and the defenses of such. My point was the techniques can be valid if caught early enough. The arms of punch are blocked effectively, and those arms are firmer, stonger and in a tighter position than pushing arms.

Try holding your arm out in front of you with a pushing position. Now change it into a fist. Which feels stronger?(2)

(1) Have you ever been hit with double palms to the chest? was it a strike or a push...? and how can you be certain it is what you thought it was?

(2) Not sure what you are trying to convey here. Neither is stronger, unless you mean at the wrist. I can make both just as strong as the other, and if I can, so can the masses.

good discussion.
 

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For TW...
Try pulling your outward blocks towards you instead of outward. It is a reverse wedge (frictional pull/check). For the test, have a person hold their stiff push out in front of you (and I agree, it is difficult to divide them), instead of going outward, go outward and pull inward (like a rowing motion). You will see it is like driving a wedge into wood (only in reverse, pulling).
 

Hand Sword

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DavidCC said:
This week I attended a SL-4 class. You must be insane if you characterize it as "chalkboard" kenpo :) Or you've just never seen it in person. It's as real-time and full-force as it gets. They don't attempt to push - they SHOVE and HARD too. The kind of push that could launch you off your feet. And the techniques work.

That's how it should be. So, good for them shoving hard. I was referring to the pulling out of formulas and equations, etc.. for a simple HIGH push attempt, not SL4.
 

Hand Sword

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Sapper6 said:
(1) Have you ever been hit with double palms to the chest? was it a strike or a push...? and how can you be certain it is what you thought it was?

(2) Not sure what you are trying to convey here. Neither is stronger, unless you mean at the wrist. I can make both just as strong as the other, and if I can, so can the masses.

good discussion.


1. Yes I have and a lot more.
In that case it's a strike, and If you have been attacked by both methods, and have any real experience..YOU KNOW and FEEL the difference. Double palms have whole committment behind them with a step forward as in a punch, a quick push, which is a HIGH push, as described in these techniques does not.

2. I was conveying that your arm is firmer, shoulder to fist than in a stretched out pushing position. I and even the untrained masses can feel that. If you can make both in that position just as strong...good for you.

This arguing of technicalities is pointless people, The techniques as any can be valid (which was the point of my arguing). If hard punches can be blocked, with the blocks, parries of these techniques, so can pushes. They, like punches, have to be caught in time. THAT's MY POINT.
 
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