Thrusting Wedge, Twist Of Fate & Parting Wings-Front 2 Hand High Push

MJS

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Thrusting Wedge:

1. An attacker at 12 o'clock pushes you high with both hands.

2. Step your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow as you thrust the outer portion of both of your forearms to create a wedge against your attacker's arms.


Parting Wings

1. An attacker at 12 o'clock pushes you with both hands.

2. Step back to 6 o'clock with your right foot so you are in a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you execute a right and left extended outward block at the same time (palms open) to clear away your attacker's arms.


Twist Of Fate

1. An attacker at 12 o'clock pushes you with both hands.

2. Step your right foot back to 6 o'clock into a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you execute right and left extended outward handswords to the inside of your attacker's wrists.


I've only posted the beginning moves of these techniques, as this is the part that I wanted to discuss.

Are these methods effective for defending against the push? There is often mention of not being able to seperate the hands by using the above mentioned defenses.

Mike
 

Carol

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MJS said:
Are these methods effective for defending against the push? There is often mention of not being able to seperate the hands by using the above mentioned defenses.

Mike

Depends on the push. If the attacker is making a hard, committed push with straight arms, it likely not be possible to seperate the arms.

However, a forcefully committed push with straight arms would be very well telegraphed. Such a push would have the attacker's bodyweight in to the motion. The attacker would have so much inertia (proper term?) that it would be very difficult to change directions at an instant. An astute (and agile) defender could avoid the attack simply by stepping off the centerline.

However, if the arms of the attacker are crooked at the time of the push, seperating the arms can be done. The defenses all rely on the attacker's elbows being bent at the time of the push. Contact to the forearms will create a more circular move...bending the attacker's arms back at the elbow and away from the defender.
 

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On an intellectual level I think these make sense, but I have doubts about my own ability to make them work. I think the stepping forward and wedging with the forearms, as long as you clasp the hands together for stability, has the greatest potential of the three described.

Another method I like is to step to about 1:00 with the right foot and pivot to remove your torso out of the path of the push. At the same time deliver a double palm strike/block to the outside of his left elbow/upper arm area. This turns him away from you toward your left, and places you sort of behind his left flank. You are free to attack the back of his head or neck or ribs, or grab the back of his left shoulder with both hands and jerk/pull him back and down along your right side, as you sweep your right foot forward. The sweep catches the back of his left ankle and swings his foot forward and up, while pulling him down and back drops him on his head. In the Chinese arts, we call this sweeping technique Bak Hok Tom Goi, or White Crane Tests the Water. Off topic a bit, but that's one of my favorites.
 

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Carol Kaur said:
However, a forcefully committed push with straight arms would be very well telegraphed. Such a push would have the attacker's bodyweight in to the motion. The attacker would have so much inertia (proper term?) that it would be very difficult to change directions at an instant. An astute (and agile) defender could avoid the attack simply by stepping off the centerline.

I'm kind of thinking that in the attack the elbows could be bent downward, and braced against the attackers own lower torso with the forearms and hands thrust forward and perhaps slightly up to strike against your mid chest area. Throwing the body weight behind a push like this could come in very quickly from a short range with little telegraphing and hit with a lot of unexpected power.

I think it would be very difficult to successfully split the attacking hands with outward blocks or knifehands. The attack would be solidly braced against his body, and would be comming in too fast and with too much power to get this to work.
 

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Flying Crane said:
On an intellectual level I think these make sense, but I have doubts about my own ability to make them work.
They don't. Separating the arms when the hands are Indexed in a pushing posture, fingers upward, is extremely difficult and impossible if the attacker doesn't 'allow' it to happen.
 

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Doc said:
hands are Indexed in a pushing posture, fingers upward

Hands are "indexed" sir? I'm stumbling on the words.
 

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Carol Kaur said:
Hands are "indexed" sir? I'm stumbling on the words.
The human body must move through specific INDEX POINTS or POSTURES to support the desired activity. Some are intuitively achieved and learned throughout a lifetime of trial and error creating established synaptic pathways, and mind body connections.

Other Indexes must be taught when entering into physically new and unproven (to the body) applications. These are taught with exaggerated external movements to 'train' the body to understand the relationship between the external movement, application, and the thought process required for success. Over time these 'indexes' become 'compressed,' faster, and ultimately intuitive requiring less external movement to recruit the same neuromuscular support for the activity. Most forms of modern martial arts do not contain these 'indexes' or this scientific methodology of teaching and training physical movement for maximum efficiency. Physical activity learned this way last a lifetime with no significant diminishing of developed skills or speed, even without constant practice once learned.
 

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I agree with the others. I have tried numerous times to make the "seperating" technique work in resistant drills, with abyssmal results. Much more effective to parry or evade, IMHO.
 

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MJS said:
Are these methods effective for defending against the push? There is often mention of not being able to seperate the hands by using the above mentioned defenses.Mike

All seems to depend on if the arms are extending or have alrady extended. When the arms of the attecker are still in the act of extending they are relatively easy to manipulate. Aikido and Ju Jitsu use this principle excessively. However once the arms reach a certain level of extension they're difficult to darn near impossible to move. Aikido demonstrates this concept with the "unbendable arm" exercise.

So it seems to depend on timing in my experiments. Can I catch the arms before they reach the "locked" or "semi-locked" positions? The area of no return seems to fall inbetween the 135-degree and 180-degree marks(refering to the angle the elbow joint makes). This seems to make sense given that this range (closer to the 135 degree area) is the mid point of flexion and extension of both the biceps and triceps. This gives the arm two VERY active muscle groups to remain in a straight configuration and deosn't even yet take into consideration the muscle groups that keep the arms in the extended position away from the body trunk.
 

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Kenpojujitsu3 said:
All seems to depend on if the arms are extending or have alrady extended. When the arms of the attecker are still in the act of extending they are relatively easy to manipulate. Aikido and Ju Jitsu use this principle excessively. However once the arms reach a certain level of extension they're difficult to darn near impossible to move. Aikido demonstrates this concept with the "unbendable arm" exercise.

So it seems to depend on timing in my experiments. Can I catch the arms before they reach the "locked" or "semi-locked" positions? The area of no return seems to fall inbetween the 135-degree and 180-degree marks(refering to the angle the elbow joint makes). This seems to make sense given that this range (closer to the 135 degree area) is the mid point of flexion and extension of both the biceps and triceps. This gives the arm two VERY active muscle groups to remain in a straight configuration and deosn't even yet take into consideration the muscle groups that keep the arms in the extended position away from the body trunk.
I disagree in principle sir. Once the hands are Indexed into the fingers up, wrist flex position, extension or lack thereof is immaterial. Experiment with a non-compliant subject in the correct posture. You'll find the capacity to separate the arms varies little fron inception to possible contact extension. Guaranteed.
 

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Doc said:
I disagree in principle sir. Once the hands are Indexed into the fingers up, wrist flex position, extension or lack thereof is immaterial. Experiment with a non-compliant subject in the correct posture. You'll find the capacity to separate the arms varies little fron inception to possible contact extension. Guaranteed.

You know me, I'll "put it to the fire" so to speak. So 1) fingers up 2) wrist flex are the only prerequisites?
 

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Kenpojujitsu3 said:
You know me, I'll "put it to the fire" so to speak. So 1) fingers up 2) wrist flex are the only prerequisites?

Just tell the person to try to push you with force and the intention to push you backwards. Telling them anyhting more, the are no longer non-compliant.
 
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MJS

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Great replies!!:)

Here are a few more questions for thought.

1) If the hands are not going to be able to be seperated, is there an alternate suggestion we could use, while still keeping to the format of those techniques?

2) If the arms can't be seperated by using the method in PW, can we still get an effective parry from the outside of the arm?

3) In PW and TOF, we're using an outward handsword, but in TW, we're using our hands together to form a wedge. In the first two, we're trying to move the hands apart, but with the wedge, we're driving up and towards the person. Are the arms going to seperate?
 

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MJS said:
Great replies!!:)

Here are a few more questions for thought.

1) If the hands are not going to be able to be seperated, is there an alternate suggestion we could use, while still keeping to the format of those techniques?

2) If the arms can't be seperated by using the method in PW, can we still get an effective parry from the outside of the arm?

3) In PW and TOF, we're using an outward handsword, but in TW, we're using our hands together to form a wedge. In the first two, we're trying to move the hands apart, but with the wedge, we're driving up and towards the person. Are the arms going to seperate?

The only time I've had trouble sepearting the arms in any of these is when I tell the person what I am going to do and they resist. In cross-training with guys that are "kenpo illiterate" and I tell them just push hard with no other info, I have no problems unless I am late as I posted about earlier.

The wedge is the easier method, the arms tend to move more upward than outward but that may be more due the fact that that's exactly where I want the arms. I actively try to wedge them upward.
 

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Kenpojujitsu3 said:
You know me, I'll "put it to the fire" so to speak. So 1) fingers up 2) wrist flex are the only prerequisites?
Wouldn't have it any other way. I encourage students to challenge to solidify and 'own' the information.

Have the model step forward with either leg, with the fingers upward and the wrist flexed as if pushing. When they stiffen their arms at various depths, utilize the various mechanisms in these three techniques at comparable speed to the attack.
 

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Doc said:
Wouldn't have it any other way. I encourage students to challenge to solidify and 'own' the information.

Have the model step forward with either leg, with the fingers upward and the wrist flexed as if pushing. When they stiffen their arms at various depths, utilize the various mechanisms in these three techniques at comparable speed to the attack.

Doc, at that point isn't the attacker compliant? You are setting the attack up.

Just curious, I do not like most of these techniques. I prefer going to the outside of the attack or using two downward outward blocks (as 90% time I am much taller than the attacker).
 

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HKphooey said:
Doc, at that point isn't the attacker compliant? You are setting the attack up.

Just curious, I do not like most of these techniques. I prefer going to the outside of the attack or using two downward outward blocks (as 90% time I am much taller than the attacker).
If you wish to run tests to explore the model, you must be consistent. The attacker is not compliant but allowng to to test the described appplication on the arms portion of the model.
 

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Doc said:
If you wish to run tests to explore the model, you must be consistent. The attacker is not compliant but allowng to to test the described appplication on the arms portion of the model.

would it perhaps make more sense to run the test by being the attacker, instead of being attacked, as long as your partner is able to adequately attempt the defenses. This way you can monkey with the delivery to see if it makes any difference, without having to clue your partner in to what is going on. Later, switch it up once you partner is in the know, but maybe initially it would work better to reverse the roles...
 

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Flying Crane said:
would it perhaps make more sense to run the test by being the attacker, instead of being attacked, as long as your partner is able to adequately attempt the defenses. This way you can monkey with the delivery to see if it makes any difference, without having to clue your partner in to what is going on. Later, switch it up once you partner is in the know, but maybe initially it would work better to reverse the roles...
Reversing roles is a part of the 'Three Perspective Point of View Process,' in teaching and learning.
 

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MattJ said:
I agree with the others. I have tried numerous times to make the "seperating" technique work in resistant drills, with abyssmal results. Much more effective to parry or evade, IMHO.

I'm kind of in agreement here.

I think in a prior thread a while back, Doc advocated these techniques be used against an attempted bearhug, rather than a push. The attacking arms will be wider as he tries to encircle you, so the need to separate the arms with outward blocks is a non-issue. Instead, step forward and use agressive double outward jamming knifehand blocks to the upper arms to stop the attack, and then proceed with the defense. If I remember correctly...
 
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