Thrusting Inward Blocks

Dominic Jones

Orange Belt
Joined
Jun 9, 2002
Messages
60
Reaction score
0
Location
Sendai City, Japan
Doc said
The thrust does have validity when placed into proper context, however expediency is not the dictating factor, efficiency is.

Doc could you expand on what the proper context for a thrusting inward block is. Thank you.

Could it be when the thrusting block to the arm continues into a thrust punch to the head as in the tecnique DARTING MACE - or do you still use a hammering inward block and then graft into the thrusting method of execution for the punch.

Cheers
Dominic :asian:
Sendai Kenpo
 

kenpoworks

Purple Belt
Joined
Feb 27, 2004
Messages
369
Reaction score
3
Location
jersey
Hey Dominic,
I know you where addressing Doc, But I have found through my own efforts while trying to make this technique effective in the ""ideal"" stage, that a hammering action from an eyebrow height reference point sets the "feel" of how the rest of the technique should be executed.
Richard.
hope you did'nt mind me butting in!
 

Doc

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2002
Messages
4,234
Reaction score
176
Location
Southern California
Dominic Jones said:
Doc could you expand on what the proper context for a thrusting inward block is. Thank you.

Could it be when the thrusting block to the arm continues into a thrust punch to the head as in the tecnique DARTING MACE - or do you still use a hammering inward block and then graft into the thrusting method of execution for the punch.

Cheers
Dominic :asian:
Sendai Kenpo
Well that is a reasonable example of how it COULD be used. But if you examine what Rich said, than the question is, how did it get to eyebrow height? I submit for structure, it should have rotated there before thrusting.

The real misunderstanding is, "Ed Parker NEVER used a pure thrusting action after he began his Chinese Kenpo." (My quote) But I digress. We were talking about the defensive application in "Delayed Sword." Those who advocate thrusting are simply unknowledgeable of all the mechanisms that take place here in the execution of this technique, as well as the target acquisitions and their effect, along with their own PROPER body mechanics.

Everyone has an opinion of HOW THEY see a technique executed, however anatomical efficiency and correctness is not open to interpretation, no matter how biased we are toward a particular motion. That's the difference between Sublevel Four Kenpo and motion based kenpo. Anatomy is the primary dictate for efficiecy, NOT subjective motion. The idea of "as long as it works for you" is unacceptable in a set science based approach. Your study model must begin from a sound base of understanding to begin with, and doesn't allow for anamolous and sometimes stupid preferences of teachers or students, even if it works on some level.

Human physical movement and biomechanics are a science unto itself, and are largely not found in the interpretive arts, and marks the difference between martial "arts," and martial "science." Most of the modern eclectic self defense material is "art" based in subjective preferences of execution. Imagine going to a professional sports team at a particular position with your own ideas of how you should do something. No matter how much talent you have, there is a coach there to insure your mechanics are correct. American Football is a good example. When a QB strugles with efficiency, they often bring in a QB coach to put a player back in touch with their fundimental execution. You see SOMEBODY already knows how it is supposed to be done, and has spent millions of dollars over time insuring its correctness. In motion-kenpo EVERYBODY knows how it should be done and they are all different. If only Mr. Parker had lived to take SOME people to the next level. SOME would have had a great time, but that level isn't meant for the closed minded or already satisfied. Even that is a preference on some level.
 

Touch Of Death

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
May 6, 2003
Messages
11,610
Reaction score
845
Location
Spokane Valley WA
Are you saying Ed Parker never did a thrusting motion from that day on, or are you talking specificly about the thrusting inward block? I mean I find it hard to believe he didn't thrust his uppercuts. Does thrusting off the hip always demonstrate a lack of knowledge or is it simply that smarter people always go to a hammer then graft to a thrust?
Sean
 

kenpoworks

Purple Belt
Joined
Feb 27, 2004
Messages
369
Reaction score
3
Location
jersey
I have found that "LIFT" is the PRIME MOVER when executing uppercuts, this is how it feels when Iam practicing my 2nd favourite punch.
with respect
Richard
 

Touch Of Death

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
May 6, 2003
Messages
11,610
Reaction score
845
Location
Spokane Valley WA
Lift and thrust require the same muscles; therefore, lift is a thrust. So you just call thrust lift and be done with it? I really thought you were trying to tell me Mr. Parker "Anded" all his thrusting motion or something.
Sean
 

Doc

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2002
Messages
4,234
Reaction score
176
Location
Southern California
kenpoworks said:
I have found that "LIFT" is the PRIME MOVER when executing uppercuts, this is how it feels when Iam practicing my 2nd favourite punch.
with respect
Richard
The next time I see you' I'll show you an INDEX that will improve that by 100%. "Guaranteed by Doc." For the record Ed Parker completely stopped ALL pure "thrusting" movement. Anyone who thinks he didn't would be someone who didn't know what to look for. Lift and thrust are different and require different execution and assignment of muslce groups, mate. Don't let me forget.
 

Jagdish

Green Belt
Joined
Nov 21, 2002
Messages
100
Reaction score
0
Location
Madrid.
Sir:

With all these long posts i don't have it clear: Does the thrusting inward block have a place within the our system?

Yours,

Jagdish



Doc said:
Big misunderstandings abound about the "thrusting block." Mr. Parker NEVER used it as a purely defensive mechanism. I would like for someone to come up with a piece of film or video that has Mr. Parker blocking with a thrusting action when executing a defensive block from the inside at street speed. It doesn't exist. Those that expound "it is quicker," simply are a tad lean in the knowledge and skill developement department when it comes to human anatomy. In fact when Mr. Parker executed with authority, his block was actually traveling "downward" when it made contact in his circular execution. Some people fall into the trap of "over-thinking" a simple concept. The thrust does have validity when placed into proper context, however expediency is not the dictating factor, efficiency is.
 

Doc

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2002
Messages
4,234
Reaction score
176
Location
Southern California
Jagdish said:
Sir:

With all these long posts i don't have it clear: Does the thrusting inward block have a place within the our system?

Yours,

Jagdish
Yes and no sir. That is, when Mr. Parker appeared to be thrusting, he really wasn't purely "thrusting." To get there requires years of "phonetic" movement to create synaptic pathways and "muscle memory" to allow the "shorthand" in appearance only movement.
 

Kenpoist

Green Belt
Joined
Jan 26, 2005
Messages
101
Reaction score
4
Location
USA
Doc said:
Big misunderstandings abound about the "thrusting block." Mr. Parker NEVER used it as a purely defensive mechanism. I would like for someone to come up with a piece of film or video that has Mr. Parker blocking with a thrusting action when executing a defensive block from the inside at street speed. It doesn't exist. Those that expound "it is quicker," simply are a tad lean in the knowledge and skill developement department when it comes to human anatomy. In fact when Mr. Parker executed with authority, his block was actually traveling "downward" when it made contact in his circular execution. Some people fall into the trap of "over-thinking" a simple concept. The thrust does have validity when placed into proper context, however expediency is not the dictating factor, efficiency is.
Doc,

Ref to the concept of the hammering "downward" circular block. Does the less experienced person risk executing the block too much on a 90 degree angle (closer to a right to left inward circle as opposed to top to bottom circle), thus risking the redirection of your attackers punch back into your body/head. I have seen poorly executed blocks carry the attackers motion right back into themselves.

I was taught to execute the a thrusting block - 45 degree angle (the diagonal in the box) - than of course your front snap kick to the groin - and your right hand is already set to perform a right downward chop to the neck. Some practice the chop as a straight chop, but the attacker should be doubled over after the kick.
 
G

GRIM

Guest
Sorry if I'm repeating anyone inadvertingly but something to think about would be agressive twins, high two hand push technique. (left leg rear twist unwind with right inward to opponents left arm clearing the push kick, kick, ect.)

My point is that a hammering inward block won't make the interception with the outside of the opponents arm in time, {and it is a dead give away if you chamber at all}. With a thrusting inward you are firing from the hip much like a gun fighter while maybe not the strongest block it deffintly has speed and with some torque you got a pretty good defense move.

I'm sorry if my descreption isn't the best I can rewrite if needed.
And I must give credit I did the hammering until Phil Bullerd (sp) showed me this wasy.
 

Michael Billings

Senior Master
MTS Alumni
Joined
Apr 5, 2002
Messages
3,962
Reaction score
31
Location
Austin, Texas USA-Terra
I was going to stay out of this for no apparent reason other than to hear what other, wiser heads would say. I may want to venture out a little here, and suggest that the thrusting inward block, as most know it, can gain levels of sophistication. This could include the palm rotating down as the block is initiated, to ensure rotation at, or right before the point of contact with the opponent. I think that now I tend to "round the corner" a bit, even when executing a thrusting inward block. It is not enough to actually be able to call it circular, but a sailor's term would be, "put a hook in it," and it is visible to me and partially a function of the pectoral contracting, along with the rotation of the wrist, and believe it or not, there may even be a slight circular action with the shoulder, even when coming from the hip as my point of origin, so that there may even be a slight gravitational marrage component. Does anyone understand what I am talking about here?

-Michael
 

Doc

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2002
Messages
4,234
Reaction score
176
Location
Southern California
GRIM said:
Sorry if I'm repeating anyone inadvertingly but something to think about would be agressive twins, high two hand push technique. (left leg rear twist unwind with right inward to opponents left arm clearing the push kick, kick, ect.)

My point is that a hammering inward block won't make the interception with the outside of the opponents arm in time, {and it is a dead give away if you chamber at all}. With a thrusting inward you are firing from the hip much like a gun fighter while maybe not the strongest block it deffintly has speed and with some torque you got a pretty good defense move.

I'm sorry if my descreption isn't the best I can rewrite if needed.
And I must give credit I did the hammering until Phil Bullerd (sp) showed me this wasy.
In the very old technique called "Aggressive Twins," (which was replace by Alternating Maces), the "block" does not block, but simply acts as a check to the reaching arms. You have already moved back to kicking distance.
 

Doc

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2002
Messages
4,234
Reaction score
176
Location
Southern California
Michael Billings said:
I was going to stay out of this for no apparent reason other than to hear what other, wiser heads would say. I may want to venture out a little here, and suggest that the thrusting inward block, as most know it, can gain levels of sophistication. This could include the palm rotating down as the block is initiated, to ensure rotation at, or right before the point of contact with the opponent. I think that now I tend to "round the corner" a bit, even when executing a thrusting inward block. It is not enough to actually be able to call it circular, but a sailor's term would be, "put a hook in it," and it is visible to me and partially a function of the pectoral contracting, along with the rotation of the wrist, and believe it or not, there may even be a slight circular action with the shoulder, even when coming from the hip as my point of origin, so that there may even be a slight gravitational marrage component. Does anyone understand what I am talking about here?

-Michael
Yep.
 

Doc

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2002
Messages
4,234
Reaction score
176
Location
Southern California
Kenpoist said:
Doc,
Ref to the concept of the hammering "downward" circular block. Does the less experienced person risk executing the block too much on a 90 degree angle (closer to a right to left inward circle as opposed to top to bottom circle), thus risking the redirection of your attackers punch back into your body/head. I have seen poorly executed blocks carry the attackers motion right back into themselves.
?
I was taught to execute the a thrusting block - 45 degree angle (the diagonal in the box) -
OK.
than of course your front snap kick to the groin - and your right hand is already set to perform a right downward chop to the neck. Some practice the chop as a straight chop,
I have no idea what you're talking about beyond the block.
but the attacker should be doubled over after the kick.
IF you're talking about a techniques, the idea he will be "bent over" after the kick is probably an incporrect assumption.
 
Top