Thriving schools

[miguksaram]

With respect Jeremy, your statement is contradicting itself. Don't take that as a shot at you. This is also circular reasoning. TKD does cater to children as the bread and butter of the Dojang. If you disagree you'll have to take it up with puunui. And this solidifies my point(s) about it being circular reasoning.

Not really...I can sell a generic product that is meant for everyone. However, there may be a specific demographic that is more attracted to my product henceforth they are the majority consumer. This does not mean that I change my core product to fit the needs for just that consumer. However, I could highlight the benefits of my product in order to attract that majority demographics to my store. I don't change the product, just the way it is advertised.

I guess my issue is the use of the word 'cater'. I would say that TKD schools are kid friendly, but to say it caters to kids sounds like someone is saying that everything taught in TKD school has no real relavance to adults. I do believe that TKD school owners are trying to highlight specific areas of TKD that would entice a younger group, but again, to say it caters just seems limited. Also to say that if you are catering to kids you are catering only the sport TKD, seems to be limited in my view.

TKD caters to children as a commercial venture - you don't teach adult SD to children - parents may join the Dojang since they're there already - Dojang teaches sport across the board.

So if the lion's share of the TKD market is geared towards children (and it is), and sport is what you teach children in a TKD school, and many adults that join are doing it out of convienance rather than go to two separate schools then you can't turn around as claim they 'want' sport as it is by-and-large what is offered and available.

I guess my question here is are you assuming that if you have a children's class in TKD that the only thing being taught is sport or that the vast majority of what is being taught is sport?

 

[miguksaram]

If enrollment is the measure of success we're using, more people participate in the "martial sport" category than any other. TKD, Judo, BJJ, Western Boxing....

My problem with this statement is that you lump TKD in as martial sport. While it does have a sport aspect to it, that is a piece of the whole.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

TKD caters to children as a commercial venture - you don't teach adult SD to children - parents may join the Dojang since they're there already - Dojang teaches sport across the board.

So if the lion's share of the TKD market is geared towards children (and it is), and sport is what you teach children in a TKD school,

Sport along with some level of life skills and maybe anti-bullying in schools that have that kind of program. Frequently, child appropriate SD strategies (stranger=danger, yelling loudly if a strange person tries to grab you, etc.) are taught as well.

and many adults that join are doing it out of convienance rather than go to two separate schools then you can't turn around as claim they 'want' sport as it is by-and-large what is offered and available.

This doesn't make sport bad or less than anything else. But the only stretch being offered is that 'people don't want SD' when the majority of what is available is sport and they don't have a choice. Dancing with the stars or sport TKD if nothing else is available.

Saying people don't want SD is like saying that nobody listens to Elvis. Certainly, people listen to Elvis, and impersonators make a good deal of money at it, and record companies still do very well when they put out compilations. But it is not being consumed the way that modern pop is.

There was a time, however, when the positions were reversed and it was only the traditional, SD focused school that one would find. Then both were available. Then the pendulum swung in the other direction. It wasn't lack of availability that caused that swing. There were a number of contributing factors, and appealing to kids under twelve certainly was a biggie.

Will the pendulum swing back? Seems unlikely, but who knows? The right intersection of events and factors could certainly precipitate it.

Proof that people may indeed opt for a non-sport art if the choice is available.

There is always a market for a non-sport school. It is always a smaller market, but it is always present. One of the biggest appeals of such a school is that it provides a training environment for adults who don't have kids and simply want to train with other adults. And a savvy school owner can certainly tap this market.

 

[puunui]

The majority of TKD schools focus on sport to one degree or another as opposed to SD.

Wrong. The majority of taekwondo dojang, cater to families and focus on development of the individual, and not sport or self defense. At least that is what the thriving schools are doing.

I'll simply mention again that I don't teach sport and I can't keep up with the number of people that want to train with me.

Interesting how you consistently talk about how you have a waiting list and can't keep up with the people that wish to train with you for free, while at the same time ignoring questions about how many students you have. The above statement adds nothing to the discussion because for all we know, your capacity is one student and there may be two potential students on your waiting list.

 

[Steve]

My problem with this statement is that you lump TKD in as martial sport. While it does have a sport aspect to it, that is a piece of the whole.

That's fair, but isn't the same true of Judo, BJJ, and even Western Boxing?

 

[miguksaram]

That's fair, but isn't the same true of Judo, BJJ, and even Western Boxing?

Could be, but I am neither a judoka, BJJ player or boxer to know what an overall curriculum encompasses and how lessons are taught and in what manner.

 

[puunui]

Sport along with some level of life skills and maybe anti-bullying in schools that have that kind of program. Frequently, child appropriate SD strategies (stranger=danger, yelling loudly if a strange person tries to grab you, etc.) are taught as well.

But then the naysayers will state that such types of training are not "effective", how could it be, they do "sport".

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I guess my issue is the use of the word 'cater'.

I don't see why this would be an issue. Several people have stated that it is the kids that keep the doors open. That isn't a dig or slam, just stating the reality of the situation. Do these schools not host b-day parties and other kid-friendly activities beside the martial program? Of course they do, and no one is saying this is a bad thing. The word 'cater' should not be taken in a negative context. I'm happy that they have kid-friendly activities.

But my point of circular reasoning stands.

Saying people don't want SD is like saying that nobody listens to Elvis.

Puunui has made this statement several times in relation to TKD. But again, I point out that it is circular reasoning.

The majority of taekwondo dojang, cater to families and focus on development of the individual, and not sport or self defense. At least that is what the thriving schools are doing.

This could be said of any school regardless of their focus. But if you claim that this is specific to TKD, could you provide some statistical data to support your statement? How do you know what all these families want? How do you know their not just taking what is available or close to home? You'll need to back this up if you are going to claim you know what they all want.

Interesting how you consistently talk about how you have a waiting list and can't keep up with the people that wish to train with you for free, while at the same time ignoring questions about how many students you have.

I don't recall anyone asking me in this thread the details of my school. However, I do specifically remembering me asking you about the details of your school. First or second page IIRC. Could you answer those questions for us? Thank you.

But then the naysayers will state that such types of training are not "effective", how could it be, they do "sport".

Could you please quote the 'naysayers' that have stated that life-skills, anti-bullying programs and child-appropriate SD strategies are not effective if taught in a sport school? I'd like to see where your getting this from. Thank you.

 

[puunui]

This could be said of any school regardless of their focus. But if you claim that this is specific to TKD, could you provide some statistical data to support your statement? How do you know what all these families want? How do you know their not just taking what is available or close to home? You'll need to back this up if you are going to claim you know what they all want.

I'm not claiming that taekwondo has a monopoly on being family focused. As for what families want, if they did not want it, they wouldn't be signing up by the thousands for long term contracts and then renewing those contracts. As for taking what is available, at this point in time, open up the phone book and you will see many martial arts schools all over the place. In fact, one of the reasons why taekwondo is so hated by other martial arts is because it does monopolize the market, killing many schools in the process. I don't need to back anything up. It would be like pointing out the obvious, which is what I frequently do, if you haven't noticed.

I don't recall anyone asking me in this thread the details of my school. However, I do specifically remembering me asking you about the details of your school. First or second page IIRC. Could you answer those questions for us? Thank you.

I've talked about my school many times. People have been to my school and know my students. If you are out of the loop on that, then again, that is your problem, not mine.

Could you please quote the 'naysayers' that have stated that life-skills, anti-bullying programs and child-appropriate SD strategies are not effective if taught in a sport school? I'd like to see where your getting this from. Thank you.

Go search the mt threads.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But my point of circular reasoning stands.

Saying people don't want SD is like saying that nobody listens to Elvis.

Puunui has made this statement several times in relation to TKD. But again, I point out that it is circular reasoning.

And here I thought I was the only one to mention the king. Not sure how this relates to circular reasoning thought.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

As for taking what is available, at this point in time, open up the phone book and you will see many martial arts schools all over the place. In fact, one of the reasons why taekwondo is so hated by other martial arts is because it does monopolize the market

Thank you, you've proven my point on circular reasoning.

I've talked about my school many times. People have been to my school and know my students. If you are out of the loop on that, then again, that is your problem, not mine.

Sounds good too me. I'll use the same response

Originally Posted by Kong Soo Do

Could you please quote the 'naysayers' that have stated that life-skills, anti-bullying programs and child-appropriate SD strategies are not effective if taught in a sport school? I'd like to see where your getting this from. Thank you.

Go search the mt threads.

Surely you can do better than this? If you're going to claim that people here on MT are talking a specific stance, to the point you have to make an 'off-hand' comment then you really need to back it up. I'm going to have to call you on this one. Please present something factual to back up your statement. Thank you.

 

[puunui]

Thank you, you've proven my point on circular reasoning.

That's not circular reasoning.

Sounds good too me. I'll use the same response

It would be nice if one person on mt could verify what you state. I just saw miguksaram win two gold medals at the hanmandang and we've traveled to korea together.

Surely you can do better than this? If you're going to claim that people here on MT are talking a specific stance, to the point you have to make an 'off-hand' comment then you really need to back it up. I'm going to have to call you on this one. Please present something factual to back up your statement. Thank you.

Call all you want. I told you where to look. If you were a martial artist, that would be enough for you. Other people have mentioned the same thing.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Thank you, you've proven my point on circular reasoning.



Sounds good too me. I'll use the same response





Surely you can do better than this? If you're going to claim that people here on MT are talking a specific stance, to the point you have to make an 'off-hand' comment then you really need to back it up. I'm going to have to call you on this one. Please present something factual to back up your statement. Thank you.

He wont answer your question. He is just back pedalling. His history here is littered with statements that cant be backed up. This all makes for great reading each afternoon with a coffee on my back deck.

 

[Archtkd]

<br>
I don't suggest that adult SD martial arts could compete with children's sport martial arts on a financial level. But then for me it is a moot point as I don't charge anything except their sweat equity.

I just saw this and wonder how many other people in this forum are running free dojangs or attend dojangs where they don't pay dues. Another question would be whether it's accurate to refer to such dojangs -- into which one pours money for no monetary return -- as "thriving" enterprises, at least in the capatilistic sense, especially when compared to commercial or even non-profit dojangs, which have to break even. I am assuming there are costs involved in running a free dojangs, even those located in the home garages of their operators.

Along those lines and maybe this is for another thread, I don't believe in free stuff, especially free instruction from my teachers. Maybe I am old school, maybe it's culture, maybe it's principal. If someone spends time teaching me a life saving skill that they spent a large part of their life to acquire, I pay them, on time and as agreed. That has nothing to do with my perception or reality about the quality of teaching, the qualification of the teacher, their national origin, etc. Along those lines, I tend to think there is a relationship between the character of a fledgling martial artist and how they handle their financial obligations. Having the habit to pay (reasonable) dues to a teacher, on time, is part of developing character and financial responsibility.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I just saw this and wonder how many other people in this forum are running free dojangs or attend dojangs where they don't pay dues. Another question would be whether it's accurate to refer to such dojangs -- into which one pours money for no monetary return -- as "thriving" enterprises, at least in the capatilistic sense, especially when compared to commercial or even non-profit dojangs that have to break even. I am assuming there are costs involved in running a free dojangs, even those located in the home garages of their operators.

Along those lines and maybe this is for another thread, I don't believe in free stuff, especially instruction from my teachers. Maybe I am old school, maybe it's culture, maybe it's principal. If someone spends time teaching me a life saving skill that they spent a large part of their life to acquire, I pay them, on time and as agreed. That has nothing to do with my perception or reality about the quality of teaching, the qualification of the teacher, their national origin, etc. Along those lines, I tend to think there is a relationship between the character of a fledgling martial artist and how they handle their financial obligations. Having the habit to pay (reasonable) dues to a teacher, on time, is helps develop character.

we have a school up the road from my place (Im pretty sure they teach zendokai, either way its not tkd), and its completely free. It has a great reputation and a few mates of mine have trained there over the years, and never paid a cent.

 

[puunui]

Along those lines and maybe this is for another thread, I don't believe in free stuff, especially free instruction from my teachers.

In the big picture scheme of things, nothing is free and everything has a price.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

In the big picture scheme of things, nothing is free and everything has a price.

Ive taught guitar for years and never charged a cent. Running my business is my day job, away from work if Im passionate about something and good enough to teach it, then Im happy to share the passion and dont expect anything in return.

 

[harlan]

I can no longer follow this convuluted thread, but this simple statement I agree with. And before anyone points out that they've never charged money, I'd suggest that intangibles are also in play.

In the big picture scheme of things, nothing is free and everything has a price.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

It would be nice if one person on mt could verify what you state. I just saw miguksaram win two gold medals at the hanmandang and we've traveled to korea together.

I've given you a resource in which you could freely talk with my instructor, several of my students, those that aren't my direct students but have trained with me. You declined. And what does Jeremy winning something have to do with the questions that you've dodged about your own school? Has he physically been to your school? Has anyone here been to your school.

My friendly advise to you sir is two-fold; don't make statements you can't back up or are unwilling to back up. Secondly, don't ask questions of others if you're unwilling to answer their questions.

Call all you want. I told you where to look. If you were a martial artist, that would be enough for you.

Hmm, so now you're claiming I'm not a martial artist because I don't want to look back through thousands of MT posts to find evidence of a statement you've made but are unwilling to back up?

He wont answer your question. He is just back pedalling. His history here is littered with statements that cant be backed up.

I know he won't. In some cases he'd have to admit he made stuff up, in other cases that he's just plain wrong. How can you trust the word of a man that states in an open thread, 'Then I'll just leave and never come back' but is back posting the next day? And he's done this twice!

Enough! Glen, have a nice day and I wish you the very best. But it is pointless to discuss anything with you and a complete waste of time. Others have found value in my posts and they have my appreciation. You may continue to nip at my heels, I'm pretty much done with you.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I just saw this and wonder how many other people in this forum are running free dojangs or attend dojangs where they don't pay dues. Another question would be whether it's accurate to refer to such dojangs -- into which one pours money for no monetary return -- as "thriving" enterprises, at least in the capatilistic sense, especially when compared to commercial or even non-profit dojangs, which have to break even. I am assuming there are costs involved in running a free dojangs, even those located in the home garages of their operators.

That is a good question. From a capitalistic point of view, such as school I suppose wouldn't be 'thriving'. But if the point of the school isn't centered around money then it shouldn't/doesn't matter. I don't teach for a living so I have the flexibility to teach for the enjoyment of teaching in-and-of-itself. My reward is seeing a student progress, seeing a student successfully using what I've taught to protect themselves, seeing them develop into an instructor themeselves. This isn't to say that these aren't rewards for instructors that charge, only that I'm in the position where I don't need to charge.

I'm looking into making a complete shift towards something like a church or inner-city community center. Give teens and adults that can't afford MA instruction the opportunity to train. Current students will continue but it will open up opportunities for others. I'll have to see how it pans out. Too me, that would also be a thriving school.