thoughts on weight training

[gungfufreddie]

what do you all think is the most necessary part of the body to do weight training on, and this does also apply in relation to given martial arts. like wing chun and grip training, boxing and neck/back training, etc..

if you had to say there was a most important muscle group to you what would it be, or what part do you prefer to train and why.

though my opinions change daily or weekly (since the body can be viewed as one team rather than individual units) but i prefer to train the gluttes, rhomboids (located below trapezius), latissimus dorsi (lats), and the entire forearm muscles (extensors, efflexors, etc...)

if you have any opinions and lifting/training methods please share them with me. this is my focus of study and my center of life so your input is valuable!! thanks for reading

 

[Drac]

I won't say its impossible to train only one muscle group, I see guys at the gym only do bicep curls so they will look good in a t shirt..My question is why??For any combat art train the whole body..Arms,legs,chest and back..

 

[jks9199]

I won't say its impossible to train only one muscle group, I see guys at the gym only do bicep curls so they will look good in a t shirt..My question is why??For any combat art train the whole body..Arms,legs,chest and back..

Ditto...

You can't train just one part or you'll end up unbalanced. Especially since most martial arts use entire chains of muscles to punch or kick, like forearm/tricep/lats/quads/calves/toes for a punch.

If you want to minimize your time in the weight room, do compound exercises that work multiple groups, like squats or deadlifts for the lower body.

 

[exile]

I won't say its impossible to train only one muscle group, I see guys at the gym only do bicep curls so they will look good in a t shirt..My question is why??For any combat art train the whole body..Arms,legs,chest and back..

Ditto...

You can't train just one part or you'll end up unbalanced. Especially since most martial arts use entire chains of muscles to punch or kick, like forearm/tricep/lats/quads/calves/toes for a punch.

If you want to minimize your time in the weight room, do compound exercises that work multiple groups, like squats or deadlifts for the lower body.

Absolutely right, gentlemen, based on my own training experience...

There's some reason to believe that compound exercises are far more efficient than isolation exercises for promoting muscle growth. Reason: compound exercises enable to you lift vastly more weight than isolation exercises, and it's the total resistance (for a given length of time and distance) that you move that constitutes the trigger for muscle growth (hence strength increases). Example: get in a power rack, set the holding pins high enough that you only have about three inches of movement at the top—your strongest range, in terms of skeletal leverage—set the protection bars accordingly, and add weights to the point where you're at your strength limits. If you can bench full range at 135lbs, you'll almost certainly be able to do a very reduced range bench at 225—two wheels per side instead of one, and with rapid reping, you'll cover the same distance in the same time as you would with the 135lbs. But your power output is now way more than half greater. Next, go to the cable crossover machine, configure it for a pec isolation exercise, and try to move the cables together to lift your max weight on that machine. If you can manage 80 or 90 lbs, you'll be doing well! Even if you can get someone to help you, so you can get the weights lifted up to where you actually only begin the exercise in your strongest range—with the cable handle almost all the way to your centerline—you'll still be able to shift probably no more than 110 lbs or so, and that's if you're already quite strong. That's the difference between a compound exercise and an isolation exercise.

If I had to pick just three exercises to work on, they would be the great classic compound exercises: bench press for chest, seated shoulder press (for the shoulder girdle), and squats (or more safely, leg presses—spinal compression is always a danger with squats) for lower body. And for biceps, I'd forget about curls and do the following: get a chain belt, wrap it around a 20lb dumbbell to start with, get a bench to stand on in front of an overhead hanging bar, and pull yourself up on it so your shoulders are level with the bar, usind a palms-inward grip. Do that 20 times and your biceps will know it. But it will also work your lats a bit as well... another compound exercise, in other words. My own strength training approach has been to avoid isolation exercises wherever possible; you get much more bang for the buck from compounds...

 

[Drac]

If I had to pick just three exercises to work on, they would be the great classic compound exercises: bench press for chest, seated shoulder press (for the shoulder girdle), and squats

I was going to call you all manner of unclean things if you had forgotten the squat...These are all EXCELLENT exercises..

 

[jks9199]

I've gotta say that, DONE WITH PROPER FORM, the squat is almost the one indispensible weight exercise. Form is vital, or you will hurt yourself. Have a KNOWLEDGEABLE trainer correct and guide you, and don't use more weight than you do properly. It works almost the entire body.

If you really want to have "fun"... use much less weight than you think (an olympic-style bar maybe all you can handle, even if you're strong!), and add a shoulder press to the squat. I've done this three ways: 1. as you squat, press up; 2. press up once, and hold it, then do squats (hellacious core exercise!); 3. like a clean and jerk, without the clean -- squat, raise, press up, lower, squat, repeat. Then make it even better... and superset it!

 

[Hawke]

You may want to try working your core muscles (abs, gluts, hams, quads).

Being active and doing something fun (swimming, basket ball, hockey, volley ball, etc). Change the workout. You might be better off training your whole body.

Remember to stretch (before, during, and after your workout) and drink plenty of water.

 

[tntma12]

I would recommend working your entire body. Legs, Back, Chest, Shoulders, Arms, Abs.

 

[exile]

I was going to call you all manner of unclean things if you had forgotten the squat...

And I'd have deserved them all! :lol:

These are all EXCELLENT exercises..

A lot of people have gotten very strong doing just those exercises, I'll bet. Weight training is one area where keeping it simple really does pay off. One thing that helps a lot with squats is this device I have called a MantaRay. It's this contoured blue thing shaped like a... well, floppy manta ray that fits the contour of your uppoer back, and has a deep groove running across it where a loaded barbell sits. Distributes the weight much more evenly and comfortably than one of those foam pads with a velcro closure that you coil around the barbell; those things still dig into your back and hurt like hell. That doesn't happen with the MantaRay.

But I had to replace the squat with (much heavier) leg presses. Since I squat very short range—just the top third—I can do it in a power rack; that kind of squat really hits the quads above the knee hard. I was squatting 425 at my best, but my spine just couldn't take it—the MantaRay saves you from that horrible feeling of the bar `cutting in', but obviously the total weight is the same, and the feeling of pressure on my spine was scary. My mother, her brother and a couple of other relatives on that side have had badly herniated discs—my mother was in traction in hospital for something like ten days, I remember, when I was a kid—so I figured, after one particularly grueling session, that I'd better quit while I was ahead. I don't think using a leg press machine is as good as squatting, even with equivalent weights (you need to double the leg press weight to get the same vertical component as a normal squat, at least on a normal one set at 45º), but... I don't need a slipped disc!

 

[Drac]

But I had to replace the squat with (much heavier) leg presses. Since I squat very short range—just the top third—I can do it in a power rack; that kind of squat really hits the quads above the knee hard. I was squatting 425 at my best, but my spine just couldn't take it—the MantaRay saves you from that horrible feeling of the bar `cutting in', but obviously the total weight is the same, and the feeling of pressure on my spine was scary. My mother, her brother and a couple of other relatives on that side have had badly herniated discs—my mother was in traction in hospital for something like ten days, I remember, when I was a kid—so I figured, after one particularly grueling session, that I'd better quit while I was ahead. I don't think using a leg press machine is as good as squatting, even with equivalent weights (you need to double the leg press weight to get the same vertical component as a normal squat, at least on a normal one set at 45º), but... I don't need a slipped disc!

I have seen the "Manta Ray" at the gym...We have a plate loaded squat machine that can be adjusted for a deep squat or a 1/2 squat..It also has a built in feature that prevents the machine from smashing down on you..It comes in real handy on those days where you throw on a another 45lb plate because your believe you're ready for it...LOL.

 

[exile]

I have seen the "Manta Ray" at the gym...

It's a brilliant invention... with that kind of weight on your back, the last thing you need is an additional source of pain, eh?

We have a plate loaded squat machine that can be adjusted for a deep squat or a 1/2 squat..It also has a built in feature that prevents the machine from smashing down on you..It comes in real handy on those days where you throw on a another 45lb plate because your believe you're ready for it...LOL.

Smart setup, it souns like. I'm amazed more people don't kill themselves doing deep squats...

Speaking of which, most gyms I've worked out in have power racks, but very few people ever seem to use them. They're live-savers also—much safer than having someone spot you!

 

[meth18au]

Most of the above posts have covered really good points. However, I've recently discovered in the past few months a new way of lifting to yield brilliant results- powerlifting. In particular- Power Cleans, Snatches and Overhead Push Press (Jerk).

I feel it has helped my development greatly in terms of strength and power. I've always just lifted weights with the bodybuilding mindset (i.e. multiple sets of multiple reps and trying to last the whole set). The powerlifting mindset is different- you conserve NOTHING. Every single rep of every single set is 120% effort.

The only downside is that you do have to learn it properly from a trainer with experience in powerlifting. Form and technique are crucial to developing the power and avoiding injuries. And it definitely has helped my power in Muay Thai, especially in the punches. Must be all that explosive power that is getting built in my body!!!!!

However having said all that, it is still not my favourite way of training. I have a real soft spot for the ol' chest routine!!!! Although you might argue it isn't the most useful muscle in martial arts when compared to other muscle groups!!!

 

[Drac]

You may want to try working your core muscles (abs, gluts, hams, quads).

I do abs at EVERY workout...

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I agree with the above statements. On a specific note, foerarms, neck, and abs. You still have to train everything else, but I recommend specializing in holding on, not getting your neck broken and being able to throw more force into your twisting movements. I, personally, detest squats and won't do them anymore. Too hard on my knees, even with a good warm-up. Practice crushing walnuts in your hand. After a couple weeks you'll be able to do it (if you can't already). Eventually you can move on to coconut husks.

 

[gungfufreddie]

now to change the conversation up a bit, which do you prefer:
muscularity programs or power programs?

power - application of strength (how i see it in a nutshell)
muscularity - endurance and stability of muscle fibers

reply when you can and thank you for your input
Frankie

 

[terryl965]

Both but that really does not answer your question. I believe you must have a great balance to be that perfect weapon.

 

[exile]

I have a real soft spot for the ol' chest routine!!!! Although you might argue it isn't the most useful muscle in martial arts when compared to other muscle groups!!!

Well, interestingly, it appears that intense benches do yield significant results for shoulder girdle strength, as I discovered to my great surprise and relief after I had to stop doing specific shoulder exercises for about two years after a very bad lifting accident resulted in multiple full-thickness tears in my right rotator cuff and a fractured scapula in the bargain. It took me about six months of intense physiotherapy to get back my full strength and mobility in my right arm and shoulder, and for a year after that I avoided seated shoulder presses, which I had been doing with quite heavy weight, upwards of 225 lbs, in a power rack when I had the accident. After doing benches during that time, and no shoulder exercises at all, I started incorporating seated shoulder presses back into my workout and found that I had only lost a little bit of strength in my delts, and have been rapidly closing in on my highest short-range shoulder press weight. My only explanation for this effect is that the compound nature of the bench press, working as it does pecs, delts, triceps and abdominal core muscles, protected my deltoid strength from the steep dropoff I'd been fearing as a result of avoiding all specific shoulder work for that long. So I think it's not just a matter of working on an impressive-looking but functionally unimportant muscle group (from an MA perspective) when you do serious benches; you really are working much of the whole upper body muscle complex, and that has to help both your overall muscularity and your MA functionality.

now to change the conversation up a bit, which do you prefer:
muscularity programs or power programs?

power - application of strength (how i see it in a nutshell)
muscularity - endurance and stability of muscle fibers

reply when you can and thank you for your input
Frankie

The way I see it, the stronger you are, the more force you can generate in a given unit of time over the same distance, i.e., the more power you can generate. There's a whole weight-training system, Sisco and Little's Power Factor model, which uses the calculation of increasing power (force/time for a fixed distance) as a measure of increasing strength and as a guide to your training schedule (crucially incorporating extremely heavy weights over very short distances and rapid reps at these weights—hence the need for a power rack). Once you've done strength training for long enough, you can generate power to a much greater degree than you could before, but the other side of the coin is effective application, the delivery, of that power to a target. As Terry indicates in his last post above, both are crucial. Accurate delivery still requires you to be able to have something in the bank to deliver, and the greatest talent for power generation won't do you that much good if you can't deliver it in a focused fashion to an appropriate target. You need a balanced approach, as Terry says, and you have to work on both sides of it...

 

[meth18au]

So I think it's not just a matter of working on an impressive-looking but functionally unimportant muscle group (from an MA perspective) when you do serious benches; you really are working much of the whole upper body muscle complex, and that has to help both your overall muscularity and your MA functionality.

Too right that it is an impressive looking muscle group!!! he he. It's true though- I'd hate to see where my upper body strength would be without my favorite bench press.

I would definitely agree with Exile and Terry here- there is no doubt that the optimal situation would involve the training of both power and strength. In my experience though, many people focus on the 'bodybuilding' side (i.e. strength and physique), and tend to neglect the powerlifting side of things. I have attended various public gyms over the years and seen this with the majority of people. I also see it amongst my friends and peers, both MA's and non-MA's. Do you tend to agree with this?

This may be kinda veering off topic now- I have encountered some deal of negativity amongst my MA peers (both at my old Kung Fu school and my current Muay Thai gym) in regards to the lifting of weights. Not everyone, but many have been of the opinion that body-weight resistance exercises are either enough or more effective!!!! Has anybody encountered this, or is of this opinion?

 

[exile]

In my experience though, many people focus on the 'bodybuilding' side (i.e. strength and physique), and tend to neglect the powerlifting side of things. I have attended various public gyms over the years and seen this with the majority of people. I also see it amongst my friends and peers, both MA's and non-MA's. Do you tend to agree with this?

I think this is true, and it's unfortunate, meth, because powerlifting is great for training the application of power. You have a very small window to get that momentum over the threshhold and move the weight to the new stable position. Every single motor unit must be recruited and fire in perfect tandem to do it. All the strength in the world isn't going to help you unless you can deliver the necessary force in a very short unit of time, corresponding to that window. Focus, in other words... it's true, strength by itself won't do the job: it's necessary but not sufficient.

This may be kinda veering off topic now- I have encountered some deal of negativity amongst my MA peers (both at my old Kung Fu school and my current Muay Thai gym) in regards to the lifting of weights. Not everyone, but many have been of the opinion that body-weight resistance exercises are either enough or more effective!!!! Has anybody encountered this, or is of this opinion?

Bruce Lee trained weights over much of his career, serious weights. I remember an article in an old weightlifting mag I had about his program, and it was intense He believed that every single possible source of advantage to a MAist was necessary to explore—because if you didn't, and you oppo did, then you had a strike against you to begin with. BL was certainly not infallible, but I think he was right on target here. I've read threads in MT where people were arguing that in certain MAs, you didn't need increased strength, that it could actually be a liability because you would come to rely on it instead of `feel', of the trained response of your sense perceptions, of fluid movement. I've never bought it, myself. I see no reason why you can't have both, and if you do, you're doing to defeat someone who only has one or the other, all other things being equal.

Check out the archived Aikido threads—there's one on this very issue whose content should be evident from the thread title....

 

[meth18au]

I love that description of powerlifting- it's right on the spot!!!! Makes me feel like going out and pumping out some power cleans!!!

I've never bought it, myself. I see no reason why you can't have both, and if you do, you're doing to defeat someone who only has one or the other, all other things being equal

I am in 100% agreement here. Have no weakness in your game!!! I might just go have a read of the old Aikido thread- right about now....