Thoughts on time variance to earn black belt

[dvcochran]

In my not so humble opinion....

Too much emphasis is placed on making 1st Degree Black Belt. It's a great goal to have, don't get me wrong, but it is not the be-all and end-all of training. It's very much like graduating from high school. All it shows is that you have learned the basics. Now it is time to really start learning the art.

Agree. What suggestions can you provide for setting goals throughout the learning progression? The belts have worked for decades (centuries?) and are very effective as long as the are not presented as the End of training. Exactly like you said unfortunately happens sometimes. Some of this is induced by the student and some of it is from poor communication form the instructor. IMHO

 

[skribs]

In my not so humble opinion....

Too much emphasis is placed on making 1st Degree Black Belt. It's a great goal to have, don't get me wrong, but it is not the be-all and end-all of training. It's very much like graduating from high school. All it shows is that you have learned the basics. Now it is time to really start learning the art.

Because there are opportunities that are not available to you if you don't have a diploma/GED.

 

[dvcochran]

Because there are opportunities that are not available to you if you don't have a diploma/GED.

Would you clarify the statement please?

 

[skribs]

Would you clarify the statement please?

Jobs that require you to have completed high school education. Higher education opportunities that are not available until you meet pre-requisites.

At the college level, you have the problem of some credits not transferring when you transfer schools. So now you need to re-take some classes, or take new pre-requisites, just to move towards the degree you were already close to getting.

Coming back to Martial Arts, let's say you train Taekwondo for 20 years, but you move around from school to school and never quite made black belt before you moved again and have to learn the new curriculum there. You almost learn all the forms at a KKW school and then move to an ATA school; get caught up there and move to a MDK school, then go to an ITF school, then back to KKW (but this school does the palgwes), then to another ITF school (this one does sine wave), and then you go back to a KKW school that does the forms you originally learned and you have to re-learn them all. Now you've got several times the experience of most first degree black belts, and probably enough experience to open your own school, but you're not even qualified to be a junior instructor in the organization.

Yeah, someone should stick to one school if they can, but if you're in the military or move around a lot for work, you might not have the opportunity. And this isn't an extreme case. There's a guy at my dojang who is progressing through our 3rd dan curriculum just as fast as I am, but he's been a 3rd dan in KKW for several years now. If he would have stayed at one school, he'd probably be a 5th dan by now. It wouldn't mean he'd be any different of a martial artist. But if he wanted to open his own school, he could, and right now he can't.

 

[dvcochran]

Jobs that require you to have completed high school education. Higher education opportunities that are not available until you meet pre-requisites.

At the college level, you have the problem of some credits not transferring when you transfer schools. So now you need to re-take some classes, or take new pre-requisites, just to move towards the degree you were already close to getting.

Coming back to Martial Arts, let's say you train Taekwondo for 20 years, but you move around from school to school and never quite made black belt before you moved again and have to learn the new curriculum there. You almost learn all the forms at a KKW school and then move to an ATA school; get caught up there and move to a MDK school, then go to an ITF school, then back to KKW (but this school does the palgwes), then to another ITF school (this one does sine wave), and then you go back to a KKW school that does the forms you originally learned and you have to re-learn them all. Now you've got several times the experience of most first degree black belts, and probably enough experience to open your own school, but you're not even qualified to be a junior instructor in the organization.

Yeah, someone should stick to one school if they can, but if you're in the military or move around a lot for work, you might not have the opportunity. And this isn't an extreme case. There's a guy at my dojang who is progressing through our 3rd dan curriculum just as fast as I am, but he's been a 3rd dan in KKW for several years now. If he would have stayed at one school, he'd probably be a 5th dan by now. It wouldn't mean he'd be any different of a martial artist. But if he wanted to open his own school, he could, and right now he can't.

Accidental post.

 

[skribs]

@dvcochran how am I wrong?

• Do people who transfer from school to school not have to learn the new school's curriculum?
• Does it not matter what your rank is when you open a school?
• Has my friend not had a 3rd degree black belt for several years?

 

[dvcochran]

Jobs that require you to have completed high school education. Higher education opportunities that are not available until you meet pre-requisites.

At the college level, you have the problem of some credits not transferring when you transfer schools. So now you need to re-take some classes, or take new pre-requisites, just to move towards the degree you were already close to getting.

Coming back to Martial Arts, let's say you train Taekwondo for 20 years, but you move around from school to school and never quite made black belt before you moved again and have to learn the new curriculum there. You almost learn all the forms at a KKW school and then move to an ATA school; get caught up there and move to a MDK school, then go to an ITF school, then back to KKW (but this school does the palgwes), then to another ITF school (this one does sine wave), and then you go back to a KKW school that does the forms you originally learned and you have to re-learn them all. Now you've got several times the experience of most first degree black belts, and probably enough experience to open your own school, but you're not even qualified to be a junior instructor in the organization.

Yeah, someone should stick to one school if they can, but if you're in the military or move around a lot for work, you might not have the opportunity. And this isn't an extreme case. There's a guy at my dojang who is progressing through our 3rd dan curriculum just as fast as I am, but he's been a 3rd dan in KKW for several years now. If he would have stayed at one school, he'd probably be a 5th dan by now. It wouldn't mean he'd be any different of a martial artist. But if he wanted to open his own school, he could, and right now he can't.

Most MA's would call what you describe a pretty cool MA journey. It just is Not all about the belt that is wrapped around you waist.
I agree that the person you described would have a ton of experience, enough that they could/should easily be able to pass it on to others.
The line of ascension you mention is only important within the one organization and is even sometime limited to one school. If rank is what is most important to you then you are correct in your statement. Else, not true.
Yes, I hold a high rank, but the breadth of knowledge I have is from years and years of cross-training with any and every school I could find during my travels all over the world.

 

[skribs]

Most MA's would call what you describe a pretty cool MA journey. It just is Not all about the belt that is wrapped around you waist.
I agree that the person you described would have a ton of experience, enough that they could/should easily be able to pass it on to others.
The line of ascension you mention is only important within the one organization and is even sometime limited to one school. If rank is what is most important to you then you are correct in your statement. Else, not true.
Yes, I hold a high rank, but the breadth of knowledge I have is from years and years of cross-training with any and every school I could find during my travels all over the world.

Imagine you have that breadth of knowledge with no rank. Why would anyone want to learn from you? Until they know you and your background, you are just another person claiming to know martial arts.

It is our accomplishments that give us the authority on the subject. I can claim to have 20 years of experience in all of the following: BJJ, Muay Thai, Aikido, Wing Chun, Capeoira, Wrestling, Boxing, Taekwondo, and Tai Chi. But I can't back any of those up, because none of them are true. Now let's say I talk about my 10 years of experience in Taekwondo. This is true. If I had no rank, medals, or documented accomplishments, how can anyone verify this?

One of the most common posts I see on the r/martialarts subreddit, is a link to a school with the basic question of "I'm thinking about starting martial arts, can you tell me if this dojo is legit?" If the people who look into the school can't find any evidence to support the claims of the instructor, they'll call it sketchy.

It's not to say that the journey I described is bad. But someone who's gone on that journey doesn't have the credentials to match with their experience. If being an instructor is something they would enjoy, it's not an option for them. Even if they're more skilled than the rest of the people in the area, they're probably less qualified.

For you, you hold a high rank. It's easy for you to dismiss the situation my friend is in, because you don't find yourself in that situation. Just like a rich kid growing up who doesn't understand money troubles, I don't think you can clearly see the problem of having your skillset without the rank.

Would you be fine with getting your black belts removed and going back down to a red or brown belt? If you went to a new TKD school and they made you a brown belt (even though you are the equivalent of their 8th degree black belts in terms of knowledge and experience), would you accept that?

 

[dvcochran]

Imagine you have that breadth of knowledge with no rank. Why would anyone want to learn from you? Until they know you and your background, you are just another person claiming to know martial arts.

It is our accomplishments that give us the authority on the subject. I can claim to have 20 years of experience in all of the following: BJJ, Muay Thai, Aikido, Wing Chun, Capeoira, Wrestling, Boxing, Taekwondo, and Tai Chi. But I can't back any of those up, because none of them are true. Now let's say I talk about my 10 years of experience in Taekwondo. This is true. If I had no rank, medals, or documented accomplishments, how can anyone verify this?

One of the most common posts I see on the r/martialarts subreddit, is a link to a school with the basic question of "I'm thinking about starting martial arts, can you tell me if this dojo is legit?" If the people who look into the school can't find any evidence to support the claims of the instructor, they'll call it sketchy.

It's not to say that the journey I described is bad. But someone who's gone on that journey doesn't have the credentials to match with their experience. If being an instructor is something they would enjoy, it's not an option for them. Even if they're more skilled than the rest of the people in the area, they're probably less qualified.

For you, you hold a high rank. It's easy for you to dismiss the situation my friend is in, because you don't find yourself in that situation. Just like a rich kid growing up who doesn't understand money troubles, I don't think you can clearly see the problem of having your skillset without the rank.

Would you be fine with getting your black belts removed and going back down to a red or brown belt? If you went to a new TKD school and they made you a brown belt (even though you are the equivalent of their 8th degree black belts in terms of knowledge and experience), would you accept that?

It is not an apples to apples question I can answer.
Maybe this answers your question; I used to often travel worldwide for work. I would find a school(s), regardless of style, where ever I traveled. I would always have a conversation with the owner or instructor and often wore no belt or my original white belt that I kept in my bag. Almost always was the case when it was a different style. In the early 90's I got my 1st Dan in Kali where I had to start as a white belt.

I am much aware that my journey has been very atypical. I have never been a casual learner of anything. I legally owned my first school before I was even a black belt. I was a silent partner for almost two years. I still own the physical property for two schools and was owner/operator for one Dojang for about 15 years. I missed going to the '88 Olympics by 2 matches. I can go on and on with the "I's" but that misses the point.

I never had to give much thought to belt progression because I was putting in more than just the required time between belts. Pretty sure I have always tested some time after the 'time requirement'. For my 3rd/5th and 4th/6th belts the test were done in the same weekend. Yes, that was very much a challenge but I was given the option and choose to do so. Our GM has been a longtime board member of the KKW testing and scoring committees and they wanted to spend time seeing the MDK material. My 5th KKW and 7th MDK were about a year apart. I had not tested since 1995 and honestly I was a bit disappointed with the KKW testers and format in Chicago. Much easier than my 4th Dan. The 7th Dan test was mostly a review of my accomplishments in the growth and business of TKD, to verify I had met the required milestones, to confirm I knew all the material, and see some material I have created. My hope is that some of it will be added to the official MDK curriculum.
I have no stripes on my belt and never will. Context aside, I could give 2 shits if anyone knows what rank I am. This is a MA site so I hope all this is received accordingly.

So, the short answer is I over achieved so that I knew for certain that I was never in a position to know what the some of the condition you described would feel like. My apologies; please do not take that as bragging, just a lot of hard work.

I can tell you this; I many regards I walked the journey twice. In 2001 I was hit head-on by a dump truck, "died" twice and have had 38 (I think) surgeries since. I literally had to relearn how to walk and talk. Have had a ton of cognitive and memory issues. Twelve plates, every kind of graph you can think of, yada, yada, yada.
About 10 years later I very, very slowly started working out and have had to relearn everything several times over. It does not appear this is ever going to change.

I feel your "just another person claiming to know an art" is exactly why belt level has to be taken carefully. Some of the best schools and workout environments I have ever been in were ran by 1st/2nd Dan's or guys with no official rank at all.

How does anyone "verify your accomplishments/experience"? By working out with you. By seeing the quality of the person, and the environment you have built. By seeing the quality of the other people working out with you.
In NO way does this only mean physical quality.

 

[skribs]

How does anyone "verify your accomplishments/experience"? By working out with you. By seeing the quality of the person, and the environment you have built. By seeing the quality of the other people working out with you.
In NO way does this only mean physical quality.

The thing is, you know all of this about yourself. But some random person off the street doesn't. And they're going to make decisions very quickly. When I applied for my job in IT, I needed to have specific certifications. I needed to have Security+ and Server+, which I hold. However, I still had to interview. If I didn't have Security+ or Server+, I couldn't even have been considered, even though I was a perfect candidate for the job. But my interviewer made it clear that my certifications just got me to the interview. It was how I conducted myself in the interview and the critical thinking skills I presented that got me the job. Neither was more important than the other. My skills I could demonstrate and my skills on paper were both critically important to me having the job.

This is a MA site so I hope all this is received accordingly.

To give you another example on this forum, you have some people like you and @Dirty Dog and @gpseymour who have enough years in Martial Arts that you can take the attitude of the State Farm commercials "we know a thing or two, because we've seen a thing or two." Then you've got people like me, who have a fair amount of experience - enough that we're considered teachers or experts within our art, but still have a lot of room to grow. And then you have people that I'm not going to name (but you might know who I'm thinking of) that are armchair masters. The kind of person personified by Matt Page when he plays Master Ken (Enter the Dojo on Youtube), who washed out of every school they trained and have no practical experience, but talk like an 11th-degree-black belt.

On this forum, we all have the same authority. While I'm a lot less experienced than you, I can say a lot of the same things you can. I've trained for years under a Master. I've trained others under me. I've mentored other instructors at my school. I've gotten with peers, and developed a few ideas myself. I don't know that it will make it into a KKW curriculum, but I hope one day to have my own curriculum I can teach. I know you can claim all of these things and more. And yet, someone with only a few months of experience and a huge superiority complex (okay, we may share that second trait) can post advice with the same clout. So what is it that sets apart your message, or my message, from that uninformed one?

 

[dvcochran]

When I applied for my job in IT, I needed to have specific certifications. I needed to have Security+ and Server+, which I hold. However, I still had to interview. If I didn't have Security+ or Server+, I couldn't even have been considered, even though I was a perfect candidate for the job. But my interviewer made it clear that my certifications just got me to the interview.

This is not at all how the MA world I have been involved in works. It soundly resembles someone who is trying to put the cart before the horse. Maybe they think they will clean things up later. A Lot of people have done just that. This is one of the reasons for the extended time between Dan ranks.
We start with nothing; pure and "white" (in belt). Usually dumber than a box of rocks when it comes to MA's. Then we build on this over time and progression. The may or may Not mean any kind of belt or rank.

On this forum, we all have the same authority. While I'm a lot less experienced than you, I can say a lot of the same things you can.

True, in any environment. A very real hazard in todays world of instant information. Saying I am a brain surgeon and actually performing the surgery could not be more different. It doesn't matter what my certificate says. In this context I often think of 1st and 2nd Dan and yes even some 3rd Dan's in much of TKD as interns.

And yet, someone with only a few months of experience and a huge superiority complex (okay, we may share that second trait) can post advice with the same clout. So what is it that sets apart your message, or my message, from that uninformed one?

I immediately go to the old saying "Money talks and BS walks". I don't know what else to say other than that experience is the best teacher.
"Sets apart" , I don't feel I have the written skills to say. This is part of the problem in communicating over a forum. So much is lost in the communication.
Sometimes inexperience can be perceived even in written form.

 

[skribs]

@dvcochran on MartialTalk we have a belt rank based on our post count. Over on the r/Taekwondo subreddit, you can put your belt rank and what association you're with. For example, mine says "3rd Dan KKW". Others may have "2nd Dan WTF/ITF" or something similar to that. This tells you right away what level of experience they have, and in what lineage.

When someone asks a question, I can immediately tell based on the tag what the experience level is of the person making the post. It doesn't mean I have to like their post. But it gives me perspective. If I see a question answered by a "red belt", a "2nd dan", a "4th dan" and a "7th dan", then I know where each of them is coming from:

• The red belt is saying what he's learned in class
• The 2nd dan is saying what he's had a chance to experiment with
• The 4th dan is speaking from experience both himself and in his teaching
• The 7th dan is speaking from decades of experience and probably a few perspective changes along the way, from student to teacher to master

Knowing that perspective makes it easier for me to understand what it is they're saying.

With that in mind, I then treat what they say based on what they say. For example, there's one guy that's a 2nd Dan, but based on his disrespectful attitude to TKD in general I wouldn't want him anywhere near my school.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The thing is, you know all of this about yourself. But some random person off the street doesn't. And they're going to make decisions very quickly. When I applied for my job in IT, I needed to have specific certifications. I needed to have Security+ and Server+, which I hold. However, I still had to interview. If I didn't have Security+ or Server+, I couldn't even have been considered, even though I was a perfect candidate for the job. But my interviewer made it clear that my certifications just got me to the interview. It was how I conducted myself in the interview and the critical thinking skills I presented that got me the job. Neither was more important than the other. My skills I could demonstrate and my skills on paper were both critically important to me having the job.



To give you another example on this forum, you have some people like you and @Dirty Dog and @gpseymour who have enough years in Martial Arts that you can take the attitude of the State Farm commercials "we know a thing or two, because we've seen a thing or two." Then you've got people like me, who have a fair amount of experience - enough that we're considered teachers or experts within our art, but still have a lot of room to grow. And then you have people that I'm not going to name (but you might know who I'm thinking of) that are armchair masters. The kind of person personified by Matt Page when he plays Master Ken (Enter the Dojo on Youtube), who washed out of every school they trained and have no practical experience, but talk like an 11th-degree-black belt.

On this forum, we all have the same authority. While I'm a lot less experienced than you, I can say a lot of the same things you can. I've trained for years under a Master. I've trained others under me. I've mentored other instructors at my school. I've gotten with peers, and developed a few ideas myself. I don't know that it will make it into a KKW curriculum, but I hope one day to have my own curriculum I can teach. I know you can claim all of these things and more. And yet, someone with only a few months of experience and a huge superiority complex (okay, we may share that second trait) can post advice with the same clout. So what is it that sets apart your message, or my message, from that uninformed one?

It has been my experiece that those of us in traditional (belt-using) systems expect that rank to be more important to newcomers than it typically is. My belt is often not visible (hidden under hakama), and I can only think of twice I've been asked by a visitor what my rank was. One of those times, it appeared to be a real question, the other seemed to be out of curiosity (or perhaps because they thought they should ask that). Once we have a level of experience, I think we're more likley to pay attention to someone's rank, because it does give us some information (depending how much we know about the system they're ranked in).

 

[dvcochran]

Isn't that exactly to your previous point? How do you really know what rank anyone is on reddit? Other than 'hearing' experience, or the lack thereof, in what they write.
This is another reason why I like this site better. A person can/should fill in their profile page with as much information as possible. This makes them a more reliable source of information (MA related) and is a means of verification if necessary.
Hopefully I am about as transparent as possible.

 

[Dirty Dog]

@dvcochran on MartialTalk we have a belt rank based on our post count. Over on the r/Taekwondo subreddit, you can put your belt rank and what association you're with. For example, mine says "3rd Dan KKW". Others may have "2nd Dan WTF/ITF" or something similar to that. This tells you right away what level of experience they have, and in what lineage.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I am not a reddit user), but I believe that only tells you what experience they CLAIM, not what they actually have.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I am not a reddit user), but I believe that only tells you what experience they CLAIM, not what they actually have.

Yep. I’ll note that the r/bjj subreddit has a verification process for anyone wanting to display black belt flair, but I don’t think any of the other martial arts subreddits have anything like that.

 

[Buka]

I don't even know what "r/bjj subreddit" means. The bjj part I get, the rest not so much. But no worries, as they say around here.....me no care.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't even know what "r/bjj subreddit" means. The bjj part I get, the rest not so much. But no worries, as they say around here.....me no care.

Reddit is really just a platform or central clearing house for a ton of different forums, each of which has its own rules, moderators, etc. Those forums or “subreddits” are identified as r/whatever, i.e. r/bjj, r/martialarts, r/judo, r/politics, r/marvelstudios, r/dadjokes, and so on.

 

[Balrog]

Agree. What suggestions can you provide for setting goals throughout the learning progression? The belts have worked for decades (centuries?) and are very effective as long as the are not presented as the End of training. Exactly like you said unfortunately happens sometimes. Some of this is induced by the student and some of it is from poor communication form the instructor. IMHO

When I was running my school, we always talked about Black Belt. Stand like a Black Belt, answer like a Black Belt, etc., trying to get the student in the habit of setting long term goals. But by the time they got to Brown Belt, we were talking about a goal of Second or Third Degree or beyond. Too many students make First Degree and quit. We were trying to keep them past that so that the training would sink in even deeper and become a lifestyle.

 

[skribs]

Isn't that exactly to your previous point? How do you really know what rank anyone is on reddit? Other than 'hearing' experience, or the lack thereof, in what they write.
This is another reason why I like this site better. A person can/should fill in their profile page with as much information as possible. This makes them a more reliable source of information (MA related) and is a means of verification if necessary.
Hopefully I am about as transparent as possible.

It gives you a starting point for the conversation. You are right that you can see through what they post whether they really are that rank or not. However, I believe most people on that site are the rank they claim.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I am not a reddit user), but I believe that only tells you what experience they CLAIM, not what they actually have.