Thoughts during combat

WcForMe

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Admittedly it's been a while since I have posted here. Seen the forum become slow over the last 8 months or so. Be honest I've just keeping my head down training hard as time allows me. Getting older, preparing to get married etc time isn't the same as it used to be.

I have always enjoyed the forum and the people that keep it alive and offer good views. However i think there's so much information already covered here it's harder to start new threads.

Anyways I was reading through several threads and it got me thinking: -

During drills, sparring I find myself thinking quite a few things. To some extent it helps me. Other times it's a hinderance. Such as the usual things, timing, space and distance, what's coming at me I.e will the opponent feint anything, looking at posture, where's the empty space etc.

During full or semi contact I find relying on a empty mind and the skills I've learnt seems to make me react faster, explote openings better etc. If I'm thinking to much about what my adversary is doing to much I seem to get caught with silly things that by now I really shouldn't. However unless I've got the wrong end of the stick I seem to have found several check lists if you like of what people seem to think when there sparring, drilling etc which seem to have anywhere from 3 to say 15 points. I just can't find time in the moment of a split second to do this.

Obviously relaxation plays a massive part of it specially when the adrenal dump happens. That in itself has taken years to deal with and still dealing with it best as I can.

What's it like for you guys and gals just being curious?
 
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hoshin1600

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During sparring or doing a form in front of others as a performance, i dont think anything. however i do catch myself in the not thinking and that makes me think..how am i remembering this kata ? if i am not thinking , how do i know what comes next? then i do the move and i am amazed at how the body moves without my prefrontal cortex telling me what to do next. of course this rabbit hole of thought causes my procedural memory to have a hickup and i lose where i was at and what kata i was doing.
 

marques

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Admittedly it's been a while since I have posted here. Seen the forum become slow over the last 8 months or so. Be honest I've just keeping my head down training hard as time allows me. Getting older, preparing to get married etc time isn't the same as it used to be.

I have always enjoyed the forum and the people that keep it alive and offer good views. However i think there's so much information already covered here it's harder to start new threads.

Anyways I was reading through several threads and it got me thinking: -

During drills, sparring I find myself thinking quite a few things. To some extent it helps me. Other times it's a hinderance. Such as the usual things, timing, space and distance, what's coming at me I.e will the opponent feint anything, looking at posture, where's the empty space etc.

During full or semi contact I find relying on a empty mind and the skills I've learnt seems to make me react faster, explote openings better etc. If I'm thinking to much about what my adversary is doing to much I seem to get caught with silly things that by now I really shouldn't. However unless I've got the wrong end of the stick I seem to have found several check lists if you like of what people seem to think when there sparring, drilling etc which seem to have anywhere from 3 to say 15 points. I just can't find time in the moment of a split second to do this.

Obviously relaxation plays a massive part of it specially when the adrenal dump happens. That in itself has taken years to deal with and still dealing with it best as I can.

What's it like for you guys and gals just being curious?
Similar here. I need time to process all the information, analysis, proper technique... so I need slow speed for that. When it is fast, I only focus on the main few things. Fortunately, training makes almost everything available in automatic mode in combat.
 
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ShortBridge

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First, to clarify, I don't think you mean "combat", do you? You're talking about sparring or maybe fighting. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but there are people among us who have combat experience and I'd never presume to speak for them or equate what I do with what they do.

Assuming you mean sparring/fighting with your Wing Chun, like you, I can't work with checklists. But, I don't go quite empty mind either.

I have a few strategic objectives e.g. - I want a bridge. I want to my put my feet where his feet are. I want to control the flow and have him reacting and recovering rather than attacking.

The hands just have to flow. I can't plan and execute sequences and responses. That's what training is for. When it's time to go, I just have to trust that it will be there for me.
 

ShortBridge

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First, to clarify, I don't think you mean "combat", do you? You're talking about sparring or maybe fighting. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but there are people among us who have combat experience and I'd never presume to speak for them or equate what I do with what they do.

Assuming you mean sparring/fighting with your Wing Chun, like you, I can't work with checklists. But, I don't go quite empty-mind either.

I have a few strategic objectives e.g. - I want a bridge. I want to my put my feet where his feet are. I want to control the flow and have him reacting and recovering rather than attacking. etc...

The hands just have to flow. I can't plan and execute sequences and responses. That's what training is for. When it's time to go, I just have to trust that it will be there for me.
 

jobo

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First, to clarify, I don't think you mean "combat", do you? You're talking about sparring or maybe fighting. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but there are people among us who have combat experience and I'd never presume to speak for them or equate what I do with what they do.

Assuming you mean sparring/fighting with your Wing Chun, like you, I can't work with checklists. But, I don't go quite empty-mind either.

I have a few strategic objectives e.g. - I want a bridge. I want to my put my feet where his feet are. I want to control the flow and have him reacting and recovering rather than attacking. etc...

The hands just have to flow. I can't plan and execute sequences and responses. That's what training is for. When it's time to go, I just have to trust that it will be there for me.
Fighting is COMBAT
 
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WcForMe

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Short bridge no your totally correct in you're break down about what i mean.

I don't mean combat as in war or any in any military term. I have no military experience at all and total respect to all those that do serve. Maybe a bad choice of words on my part. No offence is meant by it.

I mean training, maybe a altercation somewhere other than your kwoon or club.

When I say I think nothing obviously I'm present in the moment. But mainly using me eyes and senses, sensitivity etc found in alterations away from training. In those situations I always used to think and say to myself relax. I say it fast repeatedly and I used to force myself to slow that thought down.

Obviously we train to react if needed. Personally I train and hope I never have to use it, as I no longer put myself in these silly situations if possible. But it good to keep a sharp mind, keeps the weight off, and mainly it's fun.

My Sifu always says you can speed up a good technique. But you can't slow down a bad one. To me that rings true. But under pressure test situations I strive to keep to my form, structure but it can be so hard, and constantly thinking about what I'm doing when I'm doing it never helps. It stifles me. But fighting can be like chess and I try to be 7 steps ahead. But that's if I get a chance to analyse what's going to happen before it happens. Being jumped or sprung on usually leaves precious time to get your bearings and see what's happening.
 

ShortBridge

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Short bridge no your totally correct in you're break down about what i mean.

I don't mean combat as in war or any in any military term. I have no military experience at all and total respect to all those that do serve. Maybe a bad choice of words on my part. No offence is meant by it.

I mean training, maybe a altercation somewhere other than your kwoon or club.

When I say I think nothing obviously I'm present in the moment. But mainly using me eyes and senses, sensitivity etc found in alterations away from training. In those situations I always used to think and say to myself relax. I say it fast repeatedly and I used to force myself to slow that thought down.

Obviously we train to react if needed. Personally I train and hope I never have to use it, as I no longer put myself in these silly situations if possible. But it good to keep a sharp mind, keeps the weight off, and mainly it's fun.

My Sifu always says you can speed up a good technique. But you can't slow down a bad one. To me that rings true. But under pressure test situations I strive to keep to my form, structure but it can be so hard, and constantly thinking about what I'm doing when I'm doing it never helps. It stifles me. But fighting can be like chess and I try to be 7 steps ahead. But that's if I get a chance to analyse what's going to happen before it happens. Being jumped or sprung on usually leaves precious time to get your bearings and see what's happening.

I think forms and sometimes drills are the time to try to make things perfect or work on some very precise detail. When you're ... let's say "engaged" for lack of a better term ... I try not to spiral on it too much. If my hands are not good, I'll find out and can go back to training them to be better.

But, I like the chess analogy and it's one that I used recently with my students. When I start a chess game, I'm not thinking about executing knight's forks or skewers or discovered attacks. I'm instead thinking strategically. Control the center of the board, develop heavy pieces from the back rank, get ahead on material and make trades, etc.

When I'm ...engaging... I want to control range, take their center and their ground, etc. The hands just have to flow. Wing Chun is a style that does lend itself to analytical paralysis. Good fighters just move too fast and well for you predict what they are going to do 7 moves ahead. I can't even do that in chess and they are only allowed one move at a time and bound by pretty strict rules.
 

wckf92

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I use the chess analogy a lot when teaching... Be the Queen...the one piece on the board that has the most footwork options ;) :D
 

Buka

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In striking arts -

There's going to be a considerable difference between experienced and inexperienced individuals when it comes to the mental parts of the game.

And if you're using sparring in your dojo - there's going to be a difference in your thinking when you own the person you are sparring with, whether the person you're sparring with owns you, or both of you are in the process of figuring that out.

It's also the same in competition, unless nobody is familiar with each other. Then it's all figuring it out as you go along. Which is a lot of fun....if you figure it right. :)

It's different in everything. In police or security work, in the dojo, in the street, amongst friends. It's all different.
 

JR 137

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During sparring or doing a form in front of others as a performance, i dont think anything. however i do catch myself in the not thinking and that makes me think..how am i remembering this kata ? if i am not thinking , how do i know what comes next? then i do the move and i am amazed at how the body moves without my prefrontal cortex telling me what to do next. of course this rabbit hole of thought causes my procedural memory to have a hickup and i lose where i was at and what kata i was doing.
Same for me. If I think, I typically get a few moves ahead of myself and then nothing good happens.

I used to try a bunch of stuff in sparring. Id end up either doing nothing at all, or Id get hung up on trying to do something that Id be completely forcing it to work. And that never works.

Now if I try to do something, its one thing, and its strategy and not an actual technique. For instance, Ill try to stay in an orthodox stance. Or Ill try not to take any steps backwards. I gave up trying to use a specific combo or sweep, etc.

To quote Maverick in Top Gun: Up there you have no time to think. If you think, youre dead. At least thats what I think he said; its been a while. :) I DO know he said I feel the need.. the need for speed!
 

dvcochran

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Admittedly it's been a while since I have posted here. Seen the forum become slow over the last 8 months or so. Be honest I've just keeping my head down training hard as time allows me. Getting older, preparing to get married etc time isn't the same as it used to be.

I have always enjoyed the forum and the people that keep it alive and offer good views. However i think there's so much information already covered here it's harder to start new threads.

Anyways I was reading through several threads and it got me thinking: -

During drills, sparring I find myself thinking quite a few things. To some extent it helps me. Other times it's a hinderance. Such as the usual things, timing, space and distance, what's coming at me I.e will the opponent feint anything, looking at posture, where's the empty space etc.

During full or semi contact I find relying on a empty mind and the skills I've learnt seems to make me react faster, explote openings better etc. If I'm thinking to much about what my adversary is doing to much I seem to get caught with silly things that by now I really shouldn't. However unless I've got the wrong end of the stick I seem to have found several check lists if you like of what people seem to think when there sparring, drilling etc which seem to have anywhere from 3 to say 15 points. I just can't find time in the moment of a split second to do this.

Obviously relaxation plays a massive part of it specially when the adrenal dump happens. That in itself has taken years to deal with and still dealing with it best as I can.

What's it like for you guys and gals just being curious?

Great topic, and yes it is difficult to be original on this forum. Good job.
I have to separate forms and sparring.
When sparring, as others have said, it is a chess match. Especially when sparring someone I have never been against. It is unusual to know absolutely nothing about an opponent, and a poor job on your part if you are a serious competitor, but lets say it happens. I would not be thinking my physical prowess is going to work every time and would want to "feel" the person out. Trying to measure their perceived weakness(es) and how to exploit them. I may realize I feel out matched and go heavily on defense or I may try to end the match as quick as possible. I may not be in a match where knock downs/knockouts are allowed so I have to be more aware of my power or maybe I am working with a lower belt and want to do the same. The point is I am very much in the moment most of the time. When allowed the luxury, I will try to think no more than 2-3 moves ahead.
Forms are quite different. In the "perfect" scenario, you can get to the end of a form and have that "oh shxx" moment when you think you left some moves out only to find you did not. That is when you are practiced enough that it requires very little mental effort to remember the sequence of moves. ***Sidebar, in my opinion this level of repetition does not necessarily mean your form is well polished, just that you have done a bunch of moves together a great many times. I don't think anyone goes balls out full strength, full speed every time they do a form. Quite the opposite when first learning a form. Slower is better for the learning process. There are times I may be having trouble with a sequence and have to slow down to work out the rough edges. At some point in the process though we have to ramp things up to correctly measure our ability and competence of our technique. It is this refining process that allows our competency in forms to translate into our sparring and self defense skills. One component without the others usually leave something to be desired.
 

drop bear

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I do a check list. And I am solving a puzzle.

Make sure I am keeping the basics basic. And dealing with the unexpected.

Like driving pretty much.
 

ShortBridge

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...
To quote Maverick in Top Gun: Up there you have no time to think. If you think, youre dead. At least thats what I think he said; its been a while. :) I DO know he said I feel the need.. the need for speed!

I'll see your Top Gun and raise you a Bull Durham.

"Don't think, Meat, just pitch. Thinking only hurts the ball club."
 

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