Things that make you go HMMMM?

[ProfessorKenpo]

It makes me think more and more about what's happening to our art. It seems odd to me that with all these new improvements people are making to Kenpo ie. new training methods, timing drills, grappling etc. that we would throw away any of what Mr. Parker left us and opt for what some would call an evolved version of Kenpo. With all these new training methods and information shouldn't we still just be able to make a simple technique like Lone Kimono or any other tech. for that matter work effectively. It seems people are throwing away the baby with the bath water and it disturbs me. Shouldn't students be allowed the oppurtunity to make up their own minds about what they need to change or tailor upon completion of the entire system. At the very least it gives them a chance to contrast information and share with others about the same material. When you go to school they have a curriculum that's been tested, changed, modified and so forth but the basic curriculum still is and should be reading, writing, and mathematics, the fundamental skills that will allow you to interact on a basic level with others. If you then choose to improve yourself you go to college, learn new theories, concepts and principles, but primarily building on the same basics, refining them, exploring how they work in different environments. I don't see any colleges throwing out Analytical Geometry just cuz it's hard or even impossible for many that attempt it, but it's vital to a degree in engineering, and I suspect you probably will never get the degree until you pass the course. I personally don't won't to be in a car designed by someone who merely graduated from grade school. Though it may have a spectactular design and be roadworthy, I want some evidence it's going to hold up in a wreck and not kill me or my passengers.

It just appears that so many are attempting to take the easy way out and design new systems without the hard work it takes to be a true engineer of motion. Me, I'm still working on the Analytical Geometry part, desperately seeking answers to the mysteries of this wonderful art of Kenpo, I may even find it one day and pass the course.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[kenpofist2]

Greetings,

As my career in Kenpo moved on I went under many different instructors. Most had infused some kind of other art into the system and left huge holes in the Parker cirriculum. Talking on what Clyde said, I would like to add that as a result of that fusing of arts I was left with some substantial loss in basic principle and concepts.
To be fair to those arts that keep the Kenpo system in its pure form and then add other arts as bonus features to there school, those in my opinion have little impact on a students long term growth. As a person that has been there and experienced an art that was divided, I was never so glad to get to a school outside of my home state that taught pure Kenpo in the Parker System. After almost 10 years and being involved in Kenpo I found my skill developed well but I wasn't where I could have been if I had spent all that time under my current teacher.
All this I have said is from my point of view and from my own perspective from my experiences.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Once upon a time, they used to teach kids just the 3 'R's: readin' writin' & 'rithmetic...

Then they added civics, science, foreign languages, art, music, PE, shop, home-ec, etc. The 3 'R's suffered a bit, but kids had a much more practial real-world education.

Eventually, they added Driver's education and Sex education. 3 'R's suffered a little more, but kids are better drivers and a few even make good choices about sex.

Time marches on...

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Once upon a time, they used to teach kids just the 3 'R's: readin' writin' & 'rithmetic...

Then they added civics, science, foreign languages, art, music, PE, shop, home-ec, etc. The 3 'R's suffered a bit, but kids had a much more practial real-world education.

Eventually, they added Driver's education and Sex education. 3 'R's suffered a little more, but kids are better drivers and a few even make good choices about sex.

Time marches on...

I don't see them going over the Constitution, Declaration of Indepence, or the Emancipation Proclamation, Quantum Physics, or Home Ec. in Kindergarten. I reiterate my first point of fundamentals being the basic interaction.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I dunno Clyde...my son is learning the alphabet, numbers, art, gravity, cleaning-up, and sharing and he is in pre-school.

 

[howardr]

Once upon a time, they used to teach kids just the 3 'R's: readin' writin' & 'rithmetic...

Then they added civics, science, foreign languages, art, music, PE, shop, home-ec, etc. The 3 'R's suffered a bit, but kids had a much more practial real-world education.

Eventually, they added Driver's education and Sex education. 3 'R's suffered a little more, but kids are better drivers and a few even make good choices about sex.

Time marches on...

I think that illustrates the precise point that Clyde is making. The widespread lack of basic knowledge in gradeschool children in such critical fields as mathematics, grammar, and history not to mention illiteracy is so well documented that it should only need reminding. The result is a whole generation of post-secondary young adults who have a dismal grasp of history, nearly non-existent grammar, etc. Has this always been the case? Oh, no! The truth is it's gotten progressively worse in proportion to the deemphasis on the basics (and their actual active undermining through such disasters as "look-say," "the New Math," "ethnic grammar," "environmental science," etc.) and the introduction of all the awful things that you listed as "progress."

Real education as it used to be taught in this country (and how it is taught to a certain extent still in other countries) is practical while the PC/Progressive garbage that kids spend a great deal of their education on today is not just impractical but disasterous.

Howard

 

[Fastmover]

Seems to me Clyde you are scared to death for someone to change Kenpo. Keep in mind they are not trying to change your Kenpo, so why be concerned? If your happy with what you are doing then you are in the right place, dont go anywhere. In my mind you guys have traditionalized EPAK because you are doing it simply because thats the way Mr Parker left it in the books.

Mr Parker DID change, you sound just like the Tracy's talking about Mr Parker through the years. They couldnt stand what he had done and considered the Parker system a watered down version of Kenpo. I heard this for years and still here it in those circles.

You also seemed to be very caught up in the sequence of movements, god forbid someone come along and apply the equation formula and tailor it to increase the systems function. The principles are what is important not the sequence of movements. If there are sequences that increase the comprehension level of the concepts, principles and theories for students, why not teach it? Isnt that logical?

There are only 26 letters in the alphabet and out of those letters thousands of words can be made, even more so with the human imagination, any book can be wriiten to tell different stories. Still with only 26 letters in the english alphabet, hundreds of new books are written each new year. In my mind you are saying that no other book should ever be written.

Mr Parker left behind many teachings in how to proceed after he was gone. In fact in my mind he pointed the way and hopefully we as a generation can improve upon what was given to us. Didnt Ed Parker himself do this?

Why did Mr. Parker seek change? Where did all those fancy terms come from in the Encyclopedia? Is that a complete and final list?

These concepts, principles and theory of movement certainly were there when Mr Parker learned the system. Through the years I believe he developed and refined how to teach these methods to increase the systems function.

In some ways maybe Kenpo did die along with Mr Parker because he was always open to new ideas and new ways. When did we become misguided to think that Kenpo as of Decemeber of 1990 was the final product?

Be Good

John

"An ounce of logic can be worth more than a ton of tradition that has become obsolete through the weathering of time."

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Anybody ever see a fight that started in one place and moved to several others? Let's say it started in a bar, then moved to the parking lot, then wound up in another bar, then wound up at somebody's house, then continued at the local jail, etc.?

Anybody ever see a forum topic that started in one thread and then spilled over into several others. Le'ts say it started in "Disollusioned with Kenpo" spread to "Time to promote the Kenpo Grand Masters" fell into "Kenpo on the Ground" escaped to "Kenpo in the 21st Century" and then... This is definitely something that makes me go HMMMMM?

 

[jdmills]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Once upon a time, they used to teach kids just the 3 'R's: readin' writin' & 'rithmetic...

Then they added civics, science, foreign languages, art, music, PE, shop, home-ec, etc. The 3 'R's suffered a bit, but kids had a much more practial real-world education.

Eventually, they added Driver's education and Sex education. 3 'R's suffered a little more, but kids are better drivers and a few even make good choices about sex.

Time marches on...

It seems to me that is precisely the problem, the basics suffer. What you end up with is students (be they college students or kenpo students) who can parrot rhetoric (or perform techniques) that have been taught to them but lack a basic understanding of the fundamental reasons why. It permits performance, sometimes at a high level, but limits the ability for high-level original thought or inovation.

Jim

 

[Kalicombat]

Old Fat Kenpoka,
Why bother training in American Kenpo, ED PARKER's AMERICAN KENPO, if you find it lacking so? Move on to that which interests you. Most people that tout EPAK as their primary art, that I am associated with, are not interested in learning something to supplement it. They are trying to find all they can within the system. You are not going to convert anyone here to throwing on a set of "BadBoy" trunks and rolling around on the deck. Regardless of your opinion, which you are entitled to, my experiences in life have not shown the necessity of abandoning kenpo for BJJ or any other ground fighting system.
EPAK practitioners are among if not, THEE most passionate individuals when it comes to their art. SGM Parker gave us something that is worthy of further investigation. If you want ground work, try EPAK on the ground. I just cant understand why you would come to a KENPO forum and profess how lacking the system is.
This groundfighting debate is not going to be solved on this forum or any other. It is a matter of what each individual is seeking as a martial artist. Personally, I can go to the ground, and I can fight from there, however, I do not make it a goal when in a fight. No one should.

Gary Catherman, Kenpoist

 

[Michael Billings]

... learn what you will. I have trained extensively during the past 30 years in several disciplines, including a Tracy derived system for 6 years, then EPAK for the past 17 years.

I did judo, TKD, & shotokan before finding Kenpo in 1979. After that I dabbled in Tai Chi, Pa Qua (now Ba Gua), Hung Gar, some Choi Li Fut, and Wally Jay small circle ju-jitsu thrown into the mix. I have trained with boxers, had Muay Thai Kickboxers in to train and spar with us and worked out and attended classes & seminars in BJJ & JKD. There are lots of other disciplines I have been exposed to over the years.

Darn it all, I still think Kenpo offers the framework in which to analytically dissect, evaluate, and learn proper motion as applied to the Martial Arts.... regardless of discipline. Mr. Parker could watch someone from another style, any other style, and offer effective positive criticism regardless of style. I am sure he would have loved to explore the various facets of Kenpo against a BJJ grappler. He already did this against Judoka or Ju-Jitsu attacks, not to mention the boxer or TKD guy. What is to say he would not have continued this with BJJ?

Now the question is “Did he add new techniques against the various other stylist". My proposition is "NO, he did not", rather he evaluated the Principles, Concepts, and Theories of Motion, as they existed at that time, and TAILORED existing Kenpo techniques to them. I think that is the point that Clyde, Robert, and myself are trying to make.

The "Hmmmm..." (Yes continued across numerous threads now, to the exclusion of a lot of forum members probably), is that I see Larry Tatum's students, amongst a host of others, as emulating Mr. Parker. OFK, you and Fastmover and TOD want to learn techniques outside the system and bring them back in. Fine, no problemo .... Really! Others of us want to challenge that paradigm by further exploring the Principles, Concepts, and Theories of applied motion within the Kenpo system ... on the assumption that there is always more to learn, not just refinements ... but things that make you actually go "Hmmm .... Duh .... and Way Cool."

None of us are negating attacks by grapplers, as you clearly defined on another thread, we are just choosing a different paradigm to work in, which you are calling "Traditional". I am not! There was very little traditional about Kenpo, and why should you label it that when we continue to explore it's various and myriad facets?

To each his own ... can we move on yet?
:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by howardr
I think that illustrates the precise point that Clyde is making. The widespread lack of basic knowledge in gradeschool children in such critical fields as mathematics, grammar, and history not to mention illiteracy is so well documented that it should only need reminding. The result is a whole generation of post-secondary young adults who have a dismal grasp of history, nearly non-existent grammar, etc. Has this always been the case? Oh, no! The truth is it's gotten progressively worse in proportion to the deemphasis on the basics (and their actual active undermining through such disasters as "look-say," "the New Math," "ethnic grammar," "environmental science," etc.) and the introduction of all the awful things that you listed as "progress."

Real education as it used to be taught in this country (and how it is taught to a certain extent still in other countries) is practical while the PC/Progressive garbage that kids spend a great deal of their education on today is not just impractical but disasterous.

Howard

Howard,
There you go balming the educators for the social woas that plague our society. It couldn't be that the parents are out scoring crack or modern economics (and tax cuts for the rich) have made it so that both parents are out working instead of home raising there kids. Yea lets pay teachers the least of any proffession; that will solve things. Lets streamline lower income and minority kids into the prison system like its lower income housing where at least they wont be able to breed. Hey lets cut teachers salaries until they create the stepford children of yesteryear. Its not our responsibity its the fault of educators. wow somehow I now feel less to blame for anything my children might do... its almost like a drug. Thanks I almost felt responible for my children for a minute.

 

[Fastmover]

Thanks for the post as it was very insightful.

One thing I have been doing is a little re-search on the subject of change within the Kenpo system by looking at old Parker interviews and such. It has proved very interesting because Mr Parker spoke alot about incorporating methods and ideas to fit the fighting of the day which I believe is what lead him to change. Of course as his skill and knowledge grew over the years, he felt the need to incorporate this into the system. A lesson for us I think.

Mr Parker said this which fits us all,

"When it comes down to the end, Parker said, "what is true for one person may not be true for another. The real, truth for both lies in the moment of actual combat."

Take Care

John

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Howard,
There you go balming the educators for the social woas that plague our society. It couldn't be that the parents are out scoring crack or modern economics (and tax cuts for the rich) have made it so that both parents are out working instead of home raising there kids. Yea lets pay teachers the least of any proffession; that will solve things. Lets streamline lower income and minority kids into the prison system like its lower income housing where at least they wont be able to breed. Hey lets cut teachers salaries until they create the stepford children of yesteryear. Its not our responsibity its the fault of educators. wow somehow I now feel less to blame for anything my children might do... its almost like a drug. Thanks I almost felt responible for my children for a minute.

kind of interesting.... I can't find a school to hire me... because... get this... I'm OVERQUALIFIED! How someone can be overqualified to educate children, I have no idea. However, in a semester, I will have a master's degree... and the schools could pay two non-credentialed teachers for what it would cost them to hire one of me (credential and master's).

also...kind of interesting to note... the SAT 9 Tests that people are so big about seeing the results of don't match either federal or state education standards. Teachers are required to teach the standards, but the test doesn't test the standards, in many cases, it tests things that students aren't supposed to be learning until the following grade. So, either the teacher teaches the standards (and follows state law) and puts his or her job on the line (teachers can now be fired if their students don't perform well) by not teaching what's on the test, or the teacher breaks the law and teaches whats on the test instead of what children are supposed to be learning.

You see, the goal of education isn't to teach children what to think, its to teach them HOW to think, and this isn't so easily measured.... Children don't need to memorize gobs of information...they need to learn how to go out and find that information when they do need it. Children need a basic, working knowledge of history (who were the major civilizations, and approximately what order chronologically), working knowledge of math (algebra/geometry), and reading and writing skills, and COMPUTER skills. Children do NOT need to memorize pointless information such as the year the battle of Gallipoli was fought. (ACTUAL SAT 9 question...how many of US could answer that?!)..although knowing which war it was might be helpful. They do, however, need to know where to go to find that answer... google is a good place to start... http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwone/battle_gallipoli.shtml
students need to be taught how to think, and how to come to their own conclusions and find their own answers.

Kenpo, interestingly enough, has followed a similar pattern in some cases... A school I used to train at got so caught up in the little things (techniques) that they missed the big picture (principles of motion and all that) completely. The students could parrot back any technique in the book, but had no idea how to actually apply it to anything... they didn't know how to think in kenpo.

 

[rmcrobertson]

As one of those, "liberal," educators we hear so much about, let me say this: twice in the last two days, I've heard cops and librarians get on the radio and say something that boils down to this: "You know, it's a little difficult when people demand more and more and more services, and lighter and lighter and lighter taxes."

You try teaching high school English. Can't teach books like, "Huckleberry Finn, " and "Catcher in the Rye," because one nut group after another shows up at the PTA/Board meeting and demands that you be fired. Have to teach, "Romeo and Juliet," but can't mention a) premarital sex, b) gang violence, c) disrespect for parents, d) 'West Side Story.' Can't get students to come to calss, because they're home taking care of their baby...their sex ed class only taught abstinence. Have to write out a stupid Lesson Plan, because the State mandated it. Have 40, 50, 60, 70 kids in each class--you've got 4-6 classes a day--because the State's taxpayers don't wanna pay for new schools, more teachers, even though the stats all say there are more and more kids. Have to worry about a) students loan--under Reagan, they changed the tax regs and interest rates, so you own a ton, b) getting laid off, because the Federal Gov't is spending like a drunken sailor on leave in 1943 and your state's too cheap to keep you on. Enjoy dealing with wacked out, miserable, ill-mannered students whose parents are so busy working their tails off, all the time (gotta keep the country PRODUCTIVE) that they're never home to see their kids (and stressed out, when they are)...I could continue, but--getting the picture?

Oh, I left out one--every other time you turn on the radio or TV, you have to put up with assorted yahoos screaming about your salary being too high, or your union beeing too strong, or your politics being too liberal, or your general incompetence...all this and more is why I don't teach high school.

We are too damned cheap and short-sighted, in brief, to pay for teaching teachers decently (no, not training them) and good schools.

Sorry to yell-I often try to be more polite--but that nonsense just gets my goat. Please don't respond. let's all just take this as a meaningless tirade written in response to another meaningless tirade, and move on...

Oh yeah..it'll be good if our screaming spills over onto all the other threads, until we all form one big ball of waxy argument...it's the only hope of unifying kenpo...

 

[Michael Billings]

and a nice rant Robert, I really wish it were not so true.

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
and a nice rant Robert, I really wish it were not so true.

Well, like the news commentator, Paul Harvey is used to saying, "So you won't run out of things to worry about."

I'm a teacher also (22 yrs), and a former coach. I hear ya!

Stay tuned, there's more trouble ahead.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Michael: My advocacy of change does not include abandoning Kenpo principles and concepts. It revolves around refocusing on some attacks that were not covered and spending more time on "alive" training and less time on pre-arranged training drills. I think that Kenpo principles are one of the greatest strengths of the art. Principles are basic truths that should remain fairly constant over a very long time period. But, principles need to be applied and the applications need to remain current.

Robert: Being a high-school teacher sucks. In addition to all the stuff you mentioned, you have to deal with teenagers and all of their problems -- I know I was a problem teenager and it was Kenpo that straightened me out.

Everybody: I have a whole bunch of strong opinions on everything. Thank you for reading them, discussing them, embracing them, rejecting them, responding to them, and continuing the process of mutual education that is a key benefit of forum participation.

 

[kenpofist2]

Greeting OFK,

I too had a fairly "interesting" young life, and thanks to the grace of God I found Kenpo which helped me on a path of respect and decipline. It easy to lay and wait for something to happen, but it takes tanacity to effect change in your life.

:asian:

 

[howardr]

Howard,
There you go balming the educators for the social woas that plague our society. It couldn't be that the parents are out scoring crack or modern economics (and tax cuts for the rich) have made it so that both parents are out working instead of home raising there kids. Yea lets pay teachers the least of any proffession; that will solve things. Lets streamline lower income and minority kids into the prison system like its lower income housing where at least they wont be able to breed. Hey lets cut teachers salaries until they create the stepford children of yesteryear. Its not our responsibity its the fault of educators. wow somehow I now feel less to blame for anything my children might do... its almost like a drug. Thanks I almost felt responible for my children for a minute.

I'd say that you are making several unwarranted assumptions here. No where did I blame educators (which you seem to be equating with teachers themselves) for THE social woes plaguing our society. Where did I say that? I was merely pointing out that some of our current problems in education stem from both the content and methodology in our school systems. You really unreasonably stretched my point to your own liking.

Does my point necessarily require that the primary fault lie with the teachers themselves? No, it does not. Could it be the fault of some of the teachers? Perhaps. Possibly it is the fault of certain teachers but not fundamentally the teachers at the lower end of the educational totem pole. As to the source, I'd be looking more at the vanguards of these social movements - the theoreticians of the PC nonsense that usually reside in the ivory towers of our universities and think tanks.

As for the rest of your post, it strikes me as smacking with a twinge of envy (especially the part decrying supposed tax cuts for the rich). Maybe you should consider the IRS figures from the year 2000. According to the IRS, the wealthiest 1% of taxpayers pay 37% of all federal income taxes. The top 50% of taxpayers pay 96% of all income taxes. Thus, the least wealthy 50% pay next to nothing. Under Bush's tax plan everyone who PAYS taxes gets a tax cut. But Democrats decry this as a tax cut for the rich with the implication being that those who don't pay federal income taxes should get a tax cut! In other words, those that don't pay any taxes should by that fact receive more money from those that do. By this means, according to Democratic logic, anyone (or family) making more than $27,000 year has ascended to the upper eschelons of the rich. What a bunch of envious garbage.

You say these problems are our responsibility not the teachers. Well, who the heck are the teachers? Are they not equally members of our society? Or do you think they are some separate class that exists apart from the rest us? You wouldn't happen to be in college would you (or maybe a recent graduate)? Your bizarre theories about how the world works coincides perfectly with what is taught in the typical humanities class in our beloved universities.

Howard