Things that make you go HMMMM?

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Something that makes me go HMMMM? is a thread with a title that is so vague it is impossible to wander off topic.

 

[howardr]

You see, the goal of education isn't to teach children what to think, its to teach them HOW to think, and this isn't so easily measured.... Children don't need to memorize gobs of information...they need to learn how to go out and find that information when they do need it. Children need a basic, working knowledge of history (who were the major civilizations, and approximately what order chronologically), working knowledge of math (algebra/geometry), and reading and writing skills, and COMPUTER skills. Children do NOT need to memorize pointless information such as the year the battle of Gallipoli was fought. (ACTUAL SAT 9 question...how many of US could answer that?!)..although knowing which war it was might be helpful. They do, however, need to know where to go to find that answer... google is a good place to start... http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/ww...gallipoli.shtml
students need to be taught how to think, and how to come to their own conclusions and find their own answers.

Here is where I disagree with you. This is precisely the sort of problem I'm concerned about in modern education.

I think it is the job of education to teach children WHAT to think. The fundamental point is that without the WHAT there is no HOW. To take a simple example: try teaching a child HOW to solve algebra problems without first having them memorize the multiplication tables (the WHAT in this case). I certainly would not quarrel with the idea that children should be taught HOW to think. However, I think that the only way to do that, so that they can REALLY think on their own, is to first provide them with a host of facts (the WHAT) that they can use a substratum of data from which to draw, figure things out, and against which to analyze new ideas or claims. Children need to learn (yes, memorize in many instances!) a whole library of basic knowledge before they will be equiped to start thinking on their own. Otherwise, their "thinking" will amount to little more than emotional declarations in the guise of thought. In sum, there cannot be a HOW in a vacuum without first the basic data (the WHAT) with which children can eventually be taught HOW to think.

Howard

 

[howardr]

You try teaching high school English. Can't teach books like, "Huckleberry Finn, " and "Catcher in the Rye," because one nut group after another shows up at the PTA/Board meeting and demands that you be fired. Have to teach, "Romeo and Juliet," but can't mention a) premarital sex, b) gang violence, c) disrespect for parents, d) 'West Side Story.' Can't get students to come to calss, because they're home taking care of their baby...their sex ed class only taught abstinence. Have to write out a stupid Lesson Plan, because the State mandated it. Have 40, 50, 60, 70 kids in each class--you've got 4-6 classes a day--because the State's taxpayers don't wanna pay for new schools, more teachers, even though the stats all say there are more and more kids. Have to worry about a) students loan--under Reagan, they changed the tax regs and interest rates, so you own a ton, b) getting laid off, because the Federal Gov't is spending like a drunken sailor on leave in 1943 and your state's too cheap to keep you on. Enjoy dealing with wacked out, miserable, ill-mannered students whose parents are so busy working their tails off, all the time (gotta keep the country PRODUCTIVE) that they're never home to see their kids (and stressed out, when they are)...I could continue, but--getting the picture?

Hey Robert,

I certainly can't disagree with you that State education is the absolute pits!

Howard

 

[rmcrobertson]

Dear Howard:

As one of those so-called 'ivory tower," PC types (I actually teach in small working-class colleges, and have for the last...oh...fifteen years, and grew up without a lot of money--but that never slows you folks down, does it?) responsible for The Decline and Fall of Practically Everybody (Will Cuppy's book..still funny), I say this:

Piffle. Balderdash. Stuff and nonsense. Fiddlesticks. Claptrap.

You do not know what you're talking about, and you won't be bothered to learn.

Either you don't teach, or you're one of those guys who always sits there in department meetings, furious, worried that somewhere, somehow, some smartass might be teaching something you don't personally approve of.

As for the argument about the savage mistreatment of the upper middle class and wealthy in America--hilarious! Classic! It's always good to see the attack on PC, on teachers, on kids, followed up by a paean to Capitalism Set Free, which would solve all the problems if we'd only let it. The syndrome always appears full-blown.

Howard, go read: George Gilder, "Sexual Suicide;" Dinesh d'Souza, "Ill-Liberal Education;" Roger Kimball's essays on this topic in "The American Spectator;" Ann Coulter's columns. Read the moral teachings of William Bennett. Hey, there's Gertrude Himmelfarb. They'll all tell you EXACTLY what you want to hear, and you won't have to deal with reality a bit.

Anybody who's actually interested in the topic? I recommend Jonathan Kozol, "Savage Inequalities;" Richard Ohmann, "English in America;" Robert Scholes' latest book (full disclosure: he was my dissertation advisor) on the nature of the profession of English.

Oh. When you respond, Howard, be sure to attack my education as PC. Be sure to write things such as, "Yes, you liberals...." Throw in some stuff about my being a flag-hater, and about how people like me are destroying this once-great country. Write about all the money we're wasting on sex ed and gay liberation and bilingual ed and moral relativism. Be sure to include a remark or two on how I don't realize this is The Greatest Country On Earth, and how I should just go teach in China if'n I don't like it. I feel sure you'll even be able to work in something about my support for Saddam Hussein...

Just FYI, the good old days? I was there, goin' to school. Back when we prayed, every day, the Lord's Prayer...forced to. And recited the Pledge...forced to. And kids still got paddled. And the Kennedys were hated because they were Catholics. And we never, never, never had to deal with minorities...because the schools were segregated. Ah, traditional education...

I will now shut up on this silly topic, having said mah piece.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I thought this was a Kenpo forum? The education discussion started as an analogy to compare focusing on current Kenpo principles vs. adding stuff from other styles. How did we wind up arguing about taxes and such?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...because I'm an idiot, too easily baited into hopeless discussions?

 

[Michael Billings]

Hit the nail on the head that time, so how does this apply to the current interregnum in Kenpo currently? I can think of several ways it might.

Another Idiot, striving to be a moron.

 

[howardr]

As one of those so-called 'ivory tower," PC types (I actually teach in small working-class colleges, and have for the last...oh...fifteen years, and grew up without a lot of money--but that never slows you folks down, does it?) responsible for The Decline and Fall of Practically Everybody (Will Cuppy's book..still funny), I say this:

Piffle. Balderdash. Stuff and nonsense. Fiddlesticks. Claptrap.

You do not know what you're talking about, and you won't be bothered to learn.

Either you don't teach, or you're one of those guys who always sits there in department meetings, furious, worried that somewhere, somehow, some smartass might be teaching something you don't personally approve of.

Dear Robert,

Your post really gave me a big smile and a good belly laugh. As much as I disagree with you, you do have a funny, clever way of writing coupled with some absolutely pithy zingers. I suppose you should be so verbally adroit being a professional English teacher. Thanks!

Admittedly, I am not a teacher. I'm not sure why that immediately disqualifies my judgment on this subject (though you seem to think as much). While not choosing the path of teaching professionally, I've both gone to graduate school in the humanities and have many friends that are professors and secondary school instructors (not to mention a number of graduate students that I am friendly with). So, with this background and a fairly voracious appetite for reading, I think my conclusions are sound. While you may like to believe I'm merely parroting "right-wing" claptrap, in fact, I've inductively arrived at my conclusions via my own independent experiences and judgment.

It might surprise you to know that I don't care for Gilder; think that d'Souza has some good points; Kimball isn't too shabby; not a huge fan of Coulter (really having bothered investigating her too much); and can't stand Bennett.

Finally, I thought your last 3 paragraphs equally hillarious. But, I must say, I think you have me pegged incorrectly. At least half of your caricature of me is absolutely off the mark. Sorry to disappoint.

Howard

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry, shan't bandy further.

 

[Guiseppe Betri]

Robert-

Are you the one with the school in Sedro-Wooley, WA, Skagit Kenpo Karate? I was just curious, my sister lives in Bellingham and I've traveled to that part of the country several times.

Guiseppe Betri

 

[rmcrobertson]

No, not at all...I hereby absolve the poor guy from my failings.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
It makes me think more and more about what's happening to our art. It seems odd to me that with all these new improvements people are making to Kenpo ie. new training methods, timing drills, grappling etc. that we would throw away any of what Mr. Parker left us and opt for what some would call an evolved version of Kenpo. With all these new training methods and information shouldn't we still just be able to make a simple technique like Lone Kimono or any other tech. for that matter work effectively. It seems people are throwing away the baby with the bath water and it disturbs me. Shouldn't students be allowed the oppurtunity to make up their own minds about what they need to change or tailor upon completion of the entire system. At the very least it gives them a chance to contrast information and share with others about the same material. When you go to school they have a curriculum that's been tested, changed, modified and so forth but the basic curriculum still is and should be reading, writing, and mathematics, the fundamental skills that will allow you to interact on a basic level with others. If you then choose to improve yourself you go to college, learn new theories, concepts and principles, but primarily building on the same basics, refining them, exploring how they work in different environments. I don't see any colleges throwing out Analytical Geometry just cuz it's hard or even impossible for many that attempt it, but it's vital to a degree in engineering, and I suspect you probably will never get the degree until you pass the course. I personally don't won't to be in a car designed by someone who merely graduated from grade school. Though it may have a spectactular design and be roadworthy, I want some evidence it's going to hold up in a wreck and not kill me or my passengers.

It just appears that so many are attempting to take the easy way out and design new systems without the hard work it takes to be a true engineer of motion. Me, I'm still working on the Analytical Geometry part, desperately seeking answers to the mysteries of this wonderful art of Kenpo, I may even find it one day and pass the course.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Changes come in all shapes and sizes. You can't expect a 5 yo child, a 5'0, 100lb woman, and a 6'5, 230lb man to all do the tech the same way. Therefore, you must make a change. The 5'0 woman is not going to reach the 6'5 man in the neck, so she will have to adapt the tech and make it work for her. The poster who said that the same topic goes from 1 thread to another is 100% correct. Its the same thing, just colored differently.

You mention new drills, etc. Whats wrong with that? Fastmover was correct in his post by saying that there are way too many people that are sooooo afraid of a change. Do we never buy new clothes? Do we never buy a new car? Do we never go to a different place to eat? Do we eat the same food for breakfast, lunch and dinner every day? Of course not, so why not make a change?

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Seems to me Clyde you are scared to death for someone to change Kenpo. Keep in mind they are not trying to change your Kenpo, so why be concerned? If your happy with what you are doing then you are in the right place, dont go anywhere. In my mind you guys have traditionalized EPAK because you are doing it simply because thats the way Mr Parker left it in the books.

Mr Parker DID change, you sound just like the Tracy's talking about Mr Parker through the years. They couldnt stand what he had done and considered the Parker system a watered down version of Kenpo. I heard this for years and still here it in those circles.

You also seemed to be very caught up in the sequence of movements, god forbid someone come along and apply the equation formula and tailor it to increase the systems function. The principles are what is important not the sequence of movements. If there are sequences that increase the comprehension level of the concepts, principles and theories for students, why not teach it? Isnt that logical?

There are only 26 letters in the alphabet and out of those letters thousands of words can be made, even more so with the human imagination, any book can be wriiten to tell different stories. Still with only 26 letters in the english alphabet, hundreds of new books are written each new year. In my mind you are saying that no other book should ever be written.

Mr Parker left behind many teachings in how to proceed after he was gone. In fact in my mind he pointed the way and hopefully we as a generation can improve upon what was given to us. Didnt Ed Parker himself do this?

Why did Mr. Parker seek change? Where did all those fancy terms come from in the Encyclopedia? Is that a complete and final list?

These concepts, principles and theory of movement certainly were there when Mr Parker learned the system. Through the years I believe he developed and refined how to teach these methods to increase the systems function.

In some ways maybe Kenpo did die along with Mr Parker because he was always open to new ideas and new ways. When did we become misguided to think that Kenpo as of Decemeber of 1990 was the final product?

Be Good

John

"An ounce of logic can be worth more than a ton of tradition that has become obsolete through the weathering of time."

My thoughts and feelings are the same! EXCELLENT POST FASTMOVER!!!

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
Old Fat Kenpoka,
Why bother training in American Kenpo, ED PARKER's AMERICAN KENPO, if you find it lacking so? Move on to that which interests you. Most people that tout EPAK as their primary art, that I am associated with, are not interested in learning something to supplement it. They are trying to find all they can within the system. You are not going to convert anyone here to throwing on a set of "BadBoy" trunks and rolling around on the deck. Regardless of your opinion, which you are entitled to, my experiences in life have not shown the necessity of abandoning kenpo for BJJ or any other ground fighting system.
EPAK practitioners are among if not, THEE most passionate individuals when it comes to their art. SGM Parker gave us something that is worthy of further investigation. If you want ground work, try EPAK on the ground. I just cant understand why you would come to a KENPO forum and profess how lacking the system is.
This groundfighting debate is not going to be solved on this forum or any other. It is a matter of what each individual is seeking as a martial artist. Personally, I can go to the ground, and I can fight from there, however, I do not make it a goal when in a fight. No one should.

Gary Catherman, Kenpoist

I think that we all realize that there are many, many die-hard Kenpoists on this forum. I don't think that anyone is trying to say forget about Kenpo and do BJJ. In other threads, we have discussed the pros and cons of the art, and like OFK said, it spills over and over and over. Kenpo was my first art. After 17 yrs, I still train it. If I didn't like it, I would have stopped a long time ago. Kenpo is not the end all of combat. If there was one art that was the best, then there would only be 1 school, and everybody would be learning the best art. What we are trying to say, is that there are always things to add and make better. Didn't Parker himself modify that art from what he learned from his Inst.? Of course he did. He wanted to make it more adaptable for the street. However, things change with the times. I think the question we should ask now is, "What has been added, changed, etc. to make it better?"

Once again, nobody said that BJJ is the ultimate art. What we are saying, is that having even a basic understanding of the ground, might save your life if you end up there. Where do women end up if they are getting raped? On their back on the ground. I would want my wife or daughter to be able to escape from the bottom, get back to her feet, where she can deliver a strike, or run!

Mike

 

[Kalicombat]

. However, things change with the times

What kind of things that one of us may encounter in the "streets" are so different now, then when SGM Parker was formulating his American Kenpo? The same evils of society that plagued the US back then are still there today. Gangs with guns are more prevailant now, but few kenpo techniques are going to stop a drive by. Drug induced scum bags have been around along time, only back then, LSD was more in the forefront then it is today. Today, crack is the biggest drug that we may encounter some one being on. At least here in Texas, theres not a whole lot of "grapplers" lurking around in the shadows, waiting to pounce on an unsuspecting victim with an arm bar. Truth is, combat in the street, which does not include angry drunks staring one another down until a punch flies, is not all that different now, then it was 20, 30, 40 years ago. People carried knives back then, just like they do now. Street Combat is different from street fighting. If Im at the ATM, and some dirtbag tries to jack me for my cash, wallet, car, etc..., he's gonna do a hit and run type attack. Then you better be prepared for it. Its not gonna be a Hollywood version. Its gonna be fast, hard, and with the bad intent. Thwarting that attack with extreme prejudice is combat. Stopping him with whatever means available, thats combat.
Your point about a women getting raped is valid, but, chances are, she's going to fend off the perpetrator with head butts, gouges, scratches, bites, pokes, hairpulls, keys, pen, etc.... all of which are not legal in your fantasy world of UFC's and MMA events. The Gracies, and other BJJ officionados thrust the groundfighting craze to the forefront, helped along the way by all the martial arts mags, and all the while, they've wheeled their barrells to the bank to cash in on the craze. Just because it is popular does not make it anymore valid as a self defense alternative. There is nothing new in BJJ, its still Jujitsu, been around along time, just like Greco-Roman wrestling, Judo, and 8 year old kids fending off a bigger stronger bully.
People like the Shamrocks have done more positive for groundfighting craze then the Gracies, because of the level of fitness they have taken their fighters to. Royce Gracie won because the fantasy was designed by the Gracies, around their system. Throw a lead pipe, mop handle, busted beer bottle into the equation, and you've deflated the over-hyped fantasy of triangle chokes and ankle locks. My reccomendation for fighting a grappler. Always carry a bag of tacks, or of broken glass. When confronted by a BJJ perpetrator, spread the contents on the ground and stand in the middle of the pattern. Then beat the snot out of them with your useless kenpo strikes and kicks.

Gary Catherman, Kenpoist

 

[LoneWolfandCub]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
My reccomendation for fighting a grappler. Always carry a bag of tacks, or of broken glass. When confronted by a BJJ perpetrator, spread the contents on the ground and stand in the middle of the pattern. Then beat the snot out of them with your useless kenpo strikes and kicks.

Gary Catherman, Kenpoist

Sounds like a hard-core match Mick Foley style! Good Idea! The lay on the ground in the middle of something horrid is a fantasy, Ive never been able to grapple with anyone willingly wihout striking the piss out of them first!

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
What kind of things that one of us may encounter in the "streets" are so different now, then when SGM Parker was formulating his American Kenpo? The same evils of society that plagued the US back then are still there today. Gangs with guns are more prevailant now, but few kenpo techniques are going to stop a drive by. Drug induced scum bags have been around along time, only back then, LSD was more in the forefront then it is today. Today, crack is the biggest drug that we may encounter some one being on. At least here in Texas, theres not a whole lot of "grapplers" lurking around in the shadows, waiting to pounce on an unsuspecting victim with an arm bar. Truth is, combat in the street, which does not include angry drunks staring one another down until a punch flies, is not all that different now, then it was 20, 30, 40 years ago. People carried knives back then, just like they do now. Street Combat is different from street fighting. If Im at the ATM, and some dirtbag tries to jack me for my cash, wallet, car, etc..., he's gonna do a hit and run type attack. Then you better be prepared for it. Its not gonna be a Hollywood version. Its gonna be fast, hard, and with the bad intent. Thwarting that attack with extreme prejudice is combat. Stopping him with whatever means available, thats combat.
Your point about a women getting raped is valid, but, chances are, she's going to fend off the perpetrator with head butts, gouges, scratches, bites, pokes, hairpulls, keys, pen, etc.... all of which are not legal in your fantasy world of UFC's and MMA events. The Gracies, and other BJJ officionados thrust the groundfighting craze to the forefront, helped along the way by all the martial arts mags, and all the while, they've wheeled their barrells to the bank to cash in on the craze. Just because it is popular does not make it anymore valid as a self defense alternative. There is nothing new in BJJ, its still Jujitsu, been around along time, just like Greco-Roman wrestling, Judo, and 8 year old kids fending off a bigger stronger bully.
People like the Shamrocks have done more positive for groundfighting craze then the Gracies, because of the level of fitness they have taken their fighters to. Royce Gracie won because the fantasy was designed by the Gracies, around their system. Throw a lead pipe, mop handle, busted beer bottle into the equation, and you've deflated the over-hyped fantasy of triangle chokes and ankle locks. My reccomendation for fighting a grappler. Always carry a bag of tacks, or of broken glass. When confronted by a BJJ perpetrator, spread the contents on the ground and stand in the middle of the pattern. Then beat the snot out of them with your useless kenpo strikes and kicks.

Gary Catherman, Kenpoist

Whats different. Well, I guess Parker thought that there must have been something different when he was learning, because he made changes. How about making the training a little more "alive", by adding some resistance to the attacks, and more movement. Compare some training methods of some other people to those of Kenpo and maybe you'll see a difference.

Nothing new in Jujitsu? And how would you know? And a poke, gouge, and headbutt is your answer to grappling for a woman? I wonder how many of us actually go outside to train instead of on the nice soft mat. How many of us train in the clothes that we wear every day? Its a big difference even for the Kenpoist to train outside. Your footing is going to be much different on pavement, grass, dirt.

No fantasy about the Gracies. They set up a no time limit, pit one style against the other fight to see who was better. As for the Shamrocks, yes, they are in good shape, but are you telling me that none of the other BJJ fighters are not in good shape? So are you telling me that just because they are in better shape, that makes them a better fighter? NO, its the skill that makes the fighter also!

Once again, you're talking about a beer bottle, pipes, etc. Listen closely to this.....its only something I've said 100 times already...I never said that you had to roll on the ground for 30 min with the attacker. Having the knowledge to get back to your feet is an important thing though.

And while attempting the strikes and kicks, dont forget to do your best to avoid that clinching that we all work so hard on.

You also mention Hollywood type attacks. Well, maybe you can answer this question for me. I was watching Larry Tatums Mass Attack tape. In the beginning, you see him fighting mult attackers....yup, one at a time. During the actual inst. he goes on to gradually position the attackers according to his set movements, saying that when he does this move, then this will happen, and prevent that attacker from doing this, etc. How can you predict a mult person fight? You talk about Hollywood. Well, in a real mult attacker fight, they will not be attacking 1 at a time, it will be 2 or 3 at a time.

Mike

 

[MJS]

To reiterate my "aliveness" statement---read that thread in the JKD section of this forum. It will explain things a little more clearer.

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

I'm curious, Mike--who was your main kenpo instructor?

 

[Seig]

I am only going to say this once. The UFC was and is a load of crap. The Gracie HYPE is crap. They never pitted one system against another system, they pitted men against men, period. When Royce won his first UFCs he did so because he was physically better prepared to do so. Was it because BJJ was superior to Kenpo? No, Royce was a better fighter than Keith, end of discussion. In that same vein, Keith beat the hell out of a guy three times his size and broke his hand doing so. Why? Because he was the better fighter. When any trained fighter is allowed to do so in his own element, he has the advantage. People, hype is hype, not reality. The Gracie family has produced some world class athletes, as have the Machados, it's what they train for and gear towards. Could I get in the ring with one of them, probably not, I'm not a competition fighter. Can I level the average street punk? History says, yes. That's what I train for and that's what I teach. I hate to say this, because it goes against my nature to agree with DocD), it's not the system, it's the instruction.