Then vs. Now Differences

[Alan Smithee]

I would have loved to have met him. My TKD instructor, Billy Blanks, trained under him to 7th Dan. Billy told some great stories of him. When someone asked about him Billy would whistle and smile, saying “Man, you should see him fight”

That's why I'm so curious. What ruleset do you figure the full contact Tae So Do competition was under? No way it was Olympic rules, but at the same time hard to imagine bare knuckle full contact, but equally strange to imagine gloves in 1963.. Would also be interesting to know if they allowed low kicks.

 

[dvcochran]

I would have loved to have met him. My TKD instructor, Billy Blanks, trained under him to 7th Dan. Billy told some great stories of him. When someone asked about him Billy would whistle and smile, saying “Man, you should see him fight”

I would say he had as fast a front leg flip (rabbit) kick as anyone I ever seen. And it really had something on it when it hit you. To be a pretty hardcore TKD guy his takedowns were a thing of beauty.
He was pretty involved in the Olympic TKD push during the mid 80's and was very involved in the scoring rules/procedures. I still smile when I think back of watching 10-12 high ranking Koreans 'negotiate' the rules. It got pretty passionate at times.
I am going to say this rather vaguely and you will get the reason. A certain Korean whose last name was Chun was very passionate about there being no height to weight ratio for weighting. After spending two full days debating the issue and realizing it was not going his way he very much lost his composure.
Now, by Korean standards our GM Shin is a big, tall man. GM Chun who was below average for Korean stature decided he would try to sweep my GM in an attempt to make some kind of misguided reverse point that height does not matter. GM Chum tried 4-5 times with different footwork or angle and could never budge the leg. Then, as if that was not bad enough, something was said (in Korean)between the two that did not set too well. They rather hurriedly went outside the conference room quietly talking to each other. Several minutes went by before GM Shin comes back in looking just like he did when he left the room. About 30 minutes later GM Chun came back in very humbled with a busted lip and eye and shirt covered in blood. He sad down at the table and never said another word.

Theses guys lived and breathed their passion. This was a group who had moved on from competition or just always had other aspirations. A lot of us talk about being passionate. These were some of those guys who embodied it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I would have loved to have met him. My TKD instructor, Billy Blanks, trained under him to 7th Dan. Billy told some great stories of him. When someone asked about him Billy would whistle and smile, saying “Man, you should see him fight”

Still possible. He does seminars all over.

 

[Alan Smithee]

He was pretty involved in the Olympic TKD push during the mid 80's and was very involved in the scoring rules/procedures. it.

What, Jong Soo Park was? He never transitioned to the KKW so I don't see why he would have any involvement with that. He had an ITF off-shoot after his falling out with General Choi.

 

[dvcochran]

What, Jong Soo Park was? He never transitioned to the KKW so I don't see why he would have any involvement with that. He had an ITF off-shoot after his falling out with General Choi.

All "Kwans" were involved plus many others.

 

[Alan Smithee]

All "Kwans" were involved plus many others.

Why would the ITF have any involvement with a sport they didn't belong to?

 

[dvcochran]

Why would the ITF have any involvement with a sport they didn't belong to?

Political jockeying. Everyone involved in TKD wanted a piece of the Olympic pie.
ITF practitioners are allowed; they just have to play by WT rules. In a nutshell, WT is open in regards to a person experience. But they have to go by the rule/rank and advance through the circuit which gets pretty involved. By the time a person gets to the Olympic level they are a seasoned WT fighter.

 

[Alan Smithee]

ITF practitioners are allowed.

That's fairly recent. They were not allowed before.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Political jockeying. Everyone involved in TKD wanted a piece of the Olympic pie.
ITF practitioners are allowed; they just have to play by WT rules. In a nutshell, WT is open in regards to a person experience. But they have to go by the rule/rank and advance through the circuit which gets pretty involved. By the time a person gets to the Olympic level they are a seasoned WT fighter.

I believe North Koreas ITF team were allowed to compete a few years ago, but I don't know if they ever did

 

[dvcochran]

I believe North Koreas ITF team were allowed to compete a few years ago, but I don't know if they ever did

Yep.

 

[Buka]

That's why I'm so curious. What ruleset do you figure the full contact Tae So Do competition was under? No way it was Olympic rules, but at the same time hard to imagine bare knuckle full contact, but equally strange to imagine gloves in 1963.. Would also be interesting to know if they allowed low kicks.

I don't really know.

But things were "different" back in the late sixties and early seventies. The first tournament I ever saw was in Boston Arena, a "point" tournament with continuous fighting held in a boxing ring. It was no gloves and full contact with primarily Japanese fighters. It was nuts. I signed up for Karate at the school of the winner the following week.

 

[Buka]

Still possible. He does seminars all over.

Good to know. But I rarely travel to the mainland any more. Been back east twice in the last two months, though, and it was awful. But if he ever comes to Hawaii I'd definitely go, or maybe the west coast....

 

[Alan Smithee]

I don't really know.

But things were "different" back in the late sixties and early seventies. The first tournament I ever saw was in Boston Arena, a "point" tournament with continuous fighting held in a boxing ring. It was no gloves and full contact with primarily Japanese fighters. It was nuts. I signed up for Karate at the school of the winner the following week.

One of the things I notice watching these old competitions is that technique was pretty unpolished. Lots of poor knee chambers and just overall stiff kicks from seasoned fighters.

You never see a modern day elite competitor with that. I think they just mainly focused on application and power in those days.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Yep.

But they didn't right?

 

[Buka]

One of the things I notice watching these old competitions is that technique was pretty unpolished. Lots of poor knee chambers and just overall stiff kicks from seasoned fighters.

You never see a modern day elite competitor with that. I think they just mainly focused on application and power in those days.

I think what they focused on was kicking somebody's ash. Joe Lewis was the guy that taught me how to tournament fight. He used to stay at my home when he was in the area. We used to spar in my kitchen late at night. I learned as much in that kitchen as I did at any dojo. And, man, his sidekick was just plain nasty.




And to your thread about wrist locks, this photo was on the wall of my dojo with the caption under it "Wrist lock this."

He had seriously strong hands. Gorilla strength hands. I miss him a lot, he was a good man.

 

[Alan Smithee]

I think what they focused on was kicking somebody's ash. Joe Lewis was the guy that taught me how to tournament fight. He used to stay at my home when he was in the area. We used to spar in my kitchen late at night. I learned as much in that kitchen as I did at any dojo. And, man, his sidekick was just plain nasty.

View attachment 22589


And to your thread about wrist locks, this photo was on the wall of my dojo with the caption under it "Wrist lock this."

View attachment 22588

He had seriously strong hands. Gorilla strength hands. I miss him a lot, he was a good man.

Lewis had good technique but a lot of those guys didn't. Look at Skipper Mullers sidekicks there. Great competitor but novice bodymechanics. Bob Wall who had just turned black belt also very stiff.

 

[Buka]

Lewis had good technique but a lot of those guys didn't. Look at Skipper Mullers sidekicks there. Great competitor but novice bodymechanics. Bob Wall who had just turned black belt also very stiff.

Bob Wall was a beast. It was like getting hit by a truck. He trained under Joe Lewis, Gene Lebelle and the Machados. He grew up on a farm and lifted a little calf every day as the calf grew. That’s one way to improve strength, that’s for sure.

He could rock and roll, Bob Wall could. Ooh, mama.

 

[dvcochran]

But they didn't right?

I cannot say for sure. I do know that ITF people have been circuit level competitions.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I'm not a TKD guy, but I don't think style is really the topic, rather the metamorphosis of the dojang/dojo and teaching over the years here in the USA. Back in the good ol' days (late 1960's-early 1970's) pads were looked down upon as being wussy (wraps were allowed only if your were fighting injured.) This began to change when Jhoon Rhee came out with his line of foam pads which became required in TKD competitions. It was looked down upon by the "old guard" as it made for sloppy movements and actually increased injuries by taking away the once needed contact control. But the trend was established (and the pads got better) No groin shots or sweeps? What kind of MA is that?? That's what made sparring fun.

The martial art community back then was a lot smaller (like in old Okinawa) and the key players all knew each other. That meant reputation was important, so the instructors put that on the line whenever they promoted a student to black belt. Now, not so much. With so many instructors, there is more anonymity and less accountability for their actions within the community. The culture of karate has changed.

I agree with Earl Weiss' post re: the physicality of the classes and heavy soaked uniforms back then. Being bounced off the walls was just part of the entertainment. Also, less kids and more young adults making up the clientele. There was a social element back then, as MA was an esoteric art that was shared by a smaller, close knit group, loyal to their instructor (who, back then, was most likely deserving of it) and wanting to uphold his reputation.

But the bottom line is that all is dependent on the instructor, for good or ill, and that he is responsible for his students.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Bob Wall was a beast. It was like getting hit by a truck. He trained under Joe Lewis, Gene Lebelle and the Machados. He grew up on a farm and lifted a little calf every day as the calf grew. That’s one way to improve strength, that’s for sure.

He could rock and roll, Bob Wall could. Ooh, mama.

Taekwondo is not a strong man contest.