The worse rule ever enacted

[terryl965]

Maybe this should be another thread, but I wonder how the idea of full contact got started in tournaments?

When I studied TKD in the mid-60s, contact was not allowed except in blocks. Now I understand the idea of feeling pain in a fight so you learn to ignore it as much as possible. That has some merit.

But the way we were taught, the power we were taught to develop, full contact would break limbs and kill. BTW, that is a corporate we, I only got to 8th green, but I had power at or above my level. Is that type of control not taught any more?

I didn't go to any, but I was told by other students, not exercising control at a tourney would get you disqualified. It would certainly get you some stern warnings from our teacher in the dojo. You had to miss by a lot until you had the control to get closer.

Really because all I remember was full contact back in the early days, of course we used control inside the dojaang. Tournaments are and has been full contact since I could remember. One thing to consider is childern as a whole did not do alot of competing back then it was mainly men. Now days woman childern and even five years old play the tournament circuit and when dealing with small childern they need to be protected at all times.

Back in the old days we also did not wear helmits riding our bikes or skateboards but I would not let my childern ride they bike today without one. Times have changed and power and size has increased over the years. We should not try and justify what was in our past because of what is now in the present. I can see into the future and they will be adding more rules just like any sport to protect those athlete from injury at all cost. I may not like the Juniro safety rules but I cannot certainly appreciate the efforts to try and keep childern from getting hit.

 

[d1jinx]

I tend to agree and think people over-exaggerate the power produced by a 9 year old. While there may be that 1 in a million Knock-out artist 9 year old, most kicks lack any real power. There's always that slight chance of momentum and timing (not by choice but fate) that a kick could connect with any real force, but its more possible the kid falls down and bangs their head while sparring.

I HATED the rule when USAT started it (still do). Light contact sure, NO contact... stupid for taekwondo. hey why not sign them up for FLAG FOOTBALL while your at it.

 

[mango.man]

Thats what I love about this site. Ignorant people assuming that everyone else is ignorant just because they are.
I have actually done some pretty extensive research on this subject for personal reasons. Have you? Have you ever found a study SPECIFICALLY done on head impact for TKD? Have you ever found one that specifically studies the impact that a 8 to 11 year old can produce? How much the head gear absorbs? To my knowledge there isnt one (although I remember a guy at Nationals one year trying to do a experiment on it but never found out what happened with it). Everyone wants to quote or refer to the mysterious study that says that TKD head kicking is bad for the younger kids. Asked for it. No one has ever been able to produce it other than general studies that say that kids getting hit in the head is bad for them... no kidding. But those studies are GENERAL studies that cover all impact to the head. They do not specifically study TKD. They have not studied the average impact of an 8 year old. They are general studies. These same studies say the same thing for adults by the way.... getting hit in the head for any age is bad for you. Heck I could have told you that and I didnt even need to do a study to tell you it.
In no way do I advocate full contact for this age group. But controlled kicks to the head should be allowed. I ask you this: How many times have you seen a 8 to 12 year old suffer a concussion at a tournament were head kicking was allowed (or in your gym)? Thats not the age you see it in. You see it in the 12 and up were they are starting to be able to generate more power and have the leverage and body weight to put behind it.
Another solution would be to put those red foam bootys on them and only allow them to kick with the top portion of the foot. This would allow for more padding and less impact.

Ignorant = resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or awareness. I didn't mean it in a pejorative sense. I was just stating a fact that you have admitted to. You have no personal knowledge or awareness of 8 year olds delivering head kicks to each other as being a problem. Therefore you think it should be allowed because you are ignorant on the subject.

I am not aware of any studies showing that consumption of alcohol by 8 year olds (or even 21 year olds) between rounds in a TKD match being a problem, so in my opinion I think that water/sports drinks should be replaced with Jack Daniels at TKD events until someone can produce a specific and factual study that disproves what I think should be OK and allowed.

 

[troubleenuf]

Here we go once again, someone showing his intelligence not by saying something intelligent about the subject matter but by trying to come across as intelligent by saying something ludicrous and only making himself sound like a total jackass in the process. If you cant stay on the subject matter then perhaps you should refrain from posting at all. It saves everyone time who is interested in the subject having to read through the garbage posts to read the ones that pertain to what they are interested in.

Ignorant = resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or awareness. I didn't mean it in a pejorative sense. I was just stating a fact that you have admitted to. You have no personal knowledge or awareness of 8 year olds delivering head kicks to each other as being a problem. Therefore you think it should be allowed because you are ignorant on the subject.

I am not aware of any studies showing that consumption of alcohol by 8 year olds (or even 21 year olds) between rounds in a TKD match being a problem, so in my opinion I think that water/sports drinks should be replaced with Jack Daniels at TKD events until someone can produce a specific and factual study that disproves what I think should be OK and allowed.

 

[mango.man]

Here we go once again, someone showing his intelligence not by saying something intelligent about the subject matter but by trying to come across as intelligent by saying something ludicrous and only making himself sound like a total jackass in the process. If you cant stay on the subject matter then perhaps you should refrain from posting at all. It saves everyone time who is interested in the subject having to read through the garbage posts to read the ones that pertain to what they are interested in.

Yes, here we go again someone calling someone else a jackass and stomping their feet and saying that they are taking their ball and going home when there is a disagreeing opinion posted.

Fact is that head trauma is dangerous most especially to children that are still developing but to adults as well. The difference is, adults are capable of making a decision on their own as to if they want to risk such trauma or not where kids are often forced into the fighting ring by parents or masters and the kid has no say (or no say that matters) about the situation.

There are literally hundreds of studies about kids, contact sports and head trauma and virtually every one backs up that statement. Your IGNORANCE on the subject is obvious if you chose not to read those studies or understand them just because you have not found a study that specifically researches 8 year old TKD sparring with head gear.

 

[Rumy73]

Troublenuff and others,

What are your views on TKD improving or modifying the headgear? Perhaps integrating protection for the face and chin a la modern football or hockey headgear? If this was done do you think people would be more receptive to the idea of head contact? I sort of marvel at the current TKD headgear, perceiving it is obsolete and provides really little or no protection.

I think Troublenuff's point about making the head a viable target for practioners of all levels and ages is relevant -- as are the concerns about head injuries at any stage of the game. (Which in fact is the reason that I don't compete at age 38, because I don't need that in my life at this point.)

 

[troubleenuf]

Head trauma... OK prove first that an 8 year old in TKD is providing enough impact to cause head trauma. Simple. I also provided a simple solution. You continue to provide nothing but reiterating the same useless concept that someone getting hit in the head is bad for them. Until you are willing to provide a solution or facts to back yourself up it really dosnt add anything to your argument.

Yes, here we go again someone calling someone else a jackass and stomping their feet and saying that they are taking their ball and going home when there is a disagreeing opinion posted.

Fact is that head trauma is dangerous most especially to children that are still developing but to adults as well. The difference is, adults are capable of making a decision on their own as to if they want to risk such trauma or not where kids are often forced into the fighting ring by parents or masters and the kid has no say (or no say that matters) about the situation.

There are literally hundreds of studies about kids, contact sports and head trauma and virtually every one backs up that statement. Your IGNORANCE on the subject is obvious if you chose not to read those studies or understand them just because you have not found a study that specifically researches 8 year old TKD sparring with head gear.

 

[troubleenuf]

Over the years the head gear has gone through changes. At least the new stuff you can see out of. As I said in a prior statement a simple solution to the problem if more padding was needed would be to use the foam foot gear and only allow the top of the foot to be used to the head for the kids. This would allow for the approximately one inch foam head gear and additional one inch foam foot pad combination.

Troublenuff and others,

What are your views on TKD improving or modifying the headgear? Perhaps integrating protection for the face and chin a la modern football or hockey headgear? If this was done do you think people would be more receptive to the idea of head contact? I sort of marvel at the current TKD headgear, perceiving it is obsolete and provides really little or no protection.

I think Troublenuff's point about making the head a viable target for practioners of all levels and ages is relevant -- as are the concerns about head injuries at any stage of the game. (Which in fact is the reason that I don't compete at age 38, because I don't need that in my life at this point.)

 

[armortkd]

When Trish Bare did the research at USAT Nationals & Junior Olympics, she had a dummy from the military that recorded amount by G Forces. It was all done by volunteers and athletes had to input all of their data (age, gender, weight, belt rank, etc). I believe she was doing this for a Doctorate at the University of Florida.

After she collected the data and did calculations, she presented it and I remember that she told me that Jay Warrick was shocked then became a believer in the new rules. This is what we have to remember.......leading up to the age of 11-12 that a kid's brain is going thru "fusing" of sorts in their neurological and cognitive development. Multiple light-contact shots with a mix of a few hard shots over this period of time isn't good.

I'm all for developing a better helmet for Juniors ages up to 11-12. Still have the light contact rule but has a great helmet for them. BTW, I'll contact Trish and ask her about getting me her research.

 

[mango.man]

Head trauma... OK prove first that an 8 year old in TKD is providing enough impact to cause head trauma. Simple. I also provided a simple solution. You continue to provide nothing but reiterating the same useless concept that someone getting hit in the head is bad for them. Until you are willing to provide a solution or facts to back yourself up it really dosnt add anything to your argument.

I am sorry, but I am IGNORANT on the subject of how much force is behind the blow of an 8 year olds TKD kick. I am sure to you, as an adult, it would be minimal but when delivered to another child it could be substantial enough to cause whiplash or a concussion. Because of my IGNORANCE on the subject I will not pontificate further on that particular issue.

I too will ask Trish for a summary of the results of her findings. I would personally consider her to be somewhat of an expert in this specific area and I am sure I will find reading her report to be very informative.

Exactly what "facts" have you provided that repeated light contact head kicks for 8 year olds will absolutely never result in brain or head injuries? As for your "Solution" of extra padding on the foot in conjunction with the already established head gear to eliminate the possibility of head and brain injury, well I am sure that extra padding would be useful to distribute a blow over a greater surface and absorb some of the impact, it is what goes on inside the skull when kicked that I am concerned about, not how much padding there is outside the skull.

 

[terryl965]

Trish will be at the AAU National I believe in two weeks, I have sent her an e-mail requesting that study so all can view. Let see if we can get it, she has always been a positive person when it comes to injury and believe she is top notch.

 

[Master Dan]

All the points related to poor training both for sparring and self defense related to no head contact allowed are valid. Controled contact is at the core of being able to SD in the future as opposed to uncontrolled blasting away?

However there are today many serious long term related brain and nervous system injuries related to public school sports and it is of concern to health officials, insurance companies and the like. The overall feeling I am getting from tournament organizers especially Asian is that Americans are litigous and there for they wish to eliminate anything that could cause them liability?

Go back further we have 3 decades of a degeneration of quality of control and respect for training and tournament officials which has caused and increase in the possibility of someone getting hurt or a parent Ect. suing. There have been some highly publisized injuries and even deaths due to full contact TKD which has caused concern and even rule changes over the last 15 years.

I agree use good foot protection and allow only contact to the side of the helmet not face or especially the back of the neck.

Adults over 18 should go all out.

 

[mango.man]

I just wanted to say that I have sent a request to Trish for her study, if she can provide it. For others that have submitted a request, if you have not heard she is currently at the hospital with a BMX rider (Andy Buckworth) who apparently ruptured his spleen today. So it may take some time for her to provide the report, if she chooses to do so.

 

[terryl965]

I just wanted to say that I have sent a request to Trish for her study, if she can provide it. For others that have submitted a request, if you have not heard she is currently at the hospital with a BMX rider (Andy Buckworth) who apparently ruptured his spleen today. So it may take some time for her to provide the report, if she chooses to do so.

Yes I saw that on Facebook earlier, our thoughts and prayers goes out to the family and rider.

 

[mango.man]

Hope this is useful to those that don't believe that head contact for children (even those weak little 8 year olds with no force in their kicks) is a stupid idea.

2 hours ago Charles Braun
Hi Dr Bare Grounds. Hope you are doing well. You might have already gotten a similar message from a few people today but I was one of those that said I would ask as I would be interested in reading your thoughts. Recently there has been some discussion on one of the TKD forums about "I think kids should be allowed to do head shots vs. it's not worth the risk of trauma for 8 year olds to be kicking each other in the head" debates. Someone mentioned that you and or your colleagues had actually done a TKD specific study as opposed to contact sports in general and the rates and severity of head/brain trauma that can occur. I was wondering if I could see your study and your findings if they are available? If that is possible, would you mind e-mailing it to me at (E-Mail Address Removed) Thanks for anything you can provide. Have a great day - Charles

2 hours ago Charles Braun
PS, I just read your post about Andy Buckworth and wanted to emphasize that there is no rush on my request, if possible. You must take care of the important people and things first. Take care of yourself and I hope Andy is OK.

12 minutes ago Trish Bare Grounds
I did my doctoral research on the forces applied to the head & the injuries sustained at TKD events. It still has not been published but it showed that children can exert comparable forces to the head sustaining the same types of injuries as adolescents & adults. The difference is until age 10-12 there is a much greater space inside the skull so a pre-adolescent's brain tends to "bang around" more so than their adolescent & adult countertparts setting them up for greater injury to the undeveloped portions of the brain. The recommendation would have been for no contact to the head age 10 & under. Children under the age of 10 often do not show how much damage occurred to the brain until around age 15-16 when their brain should develop a social/moral conscience that may not properly develop due to earlier brain trauma.

9 minutes ago Charles Braun
Thank you for the information. Do you mind if I post your response on the forum where we are discussing the issue?

3 minutes ago Trish Bare Grounds
Sure

 

[mango.man]

By the way mr trouble, I accept your apology for that mean name you called me earlier in this thread. I am sure you were just hurling your hurtful words out of frustration and of course IGNORANCE on the subject at hand.

 

[terryl965]

Here is what Trish sent me and she will put together something a little more for those wishing to see more.

Trish Bare Grounds
Master Stoker, yes, I gave Charles Braun an overview of the research I did & the recommendations that came from it. If you need actual literature citations may take me a few days as I am not near my computer, but I will copy the info I sent to him last night in just a moment.

 

[d1jinx]

here is what trish sent me and she will put together something a little more for those wishing to see more.

trish bare grounds
master stoker, yes, i gave charles braun an overview of the research i did & the recommendations that came from it. If you need actual literature citations may take me a few days as i am not near my computer, but i will copy the info i sent to him last night in just a moment.

damn facebook......................................................

 

[ArmorOfGod]

I took my students to a martial arts tournament last week and some of the fighters were tkd people. They kept their hands straight down by their sides while fighting.
They kept getting hit in the head because of this.

AoG

 

[ATC]

Here is what Trish sent me and she will put together something a little more for those wishing to see more.

Trish Bare Grounds
Master Stoker, yes, I gave Charles Braun an overview of the research I did & the recommendations that came from it. If you need actual literature citations may take me a few days as I am not near my computer, but I will copy the info I sent to him last night in just a moment.

Master Terry, The link takes you to a facebook login but with your yahoo email address as the login. If I attempt to login with my email and pass I get logged in but can only see Trish's public info, nothing more.

You will have to cut and paste the info she wrote into the thread sir, for any of us to see. Maybe Mango is Trish's friend also on FB so he can already see it.