Rant: USAT 14-17 bb div sparring rules

[bluekey88]

This past Saturday, I attended a coaching seminar in preparation for the AAU regional qualifiers next week. I was really surprised to hear that 14-17 year old black belts have the option of either competing in a dividion with adult rules (full ocntact to the head basically) or in a division using junior safety rules (light head contact). I sat there thinking "what a fantastic idea!"

Here's my situation, a few months ago, I had the difficult experiencing of telling my son (who I also help coach) that he was not ready to spar at the USAT Junior Nationals in San Jose. You see, he's 13 and will have to compete in the 14-17 y.o. division under full contact adult rules. Zak is pretty good. but he's not a great sparrer...but he loves competing. The concerns the coaches (myself included) had were that under that ruleset...the competition would be too dangerous...he'd literally get his head knocked off. Theoretically, my son (14) could end up facing a more experienced, faster, stronger 17 (maybe almost 18) year old.

My son's reaction was that he would train harder and bring his game up so that he could fight. We (myself and the head coach) pointed out that there is no one on the team who we would willingly let fight in that division right now. In fact, all the past comp team memebers who were really good all quit around the time they turned 14...either because they did not want to compete under this rulset or because they tried but got knocked out.

As a parent and as a coach, it would be very irresponsible of me to put my son in there when he is clearly not ready for that level of competition. However, it was very hard to see him say he was going to some how bring his game up...even though realistically, it wasn't going to happen. Ultimately, we gave him a goal...he had to dominate (consistently) another comp team member (someone who is much better than him) before he would be considered to be allowed to spar at nationals. He's trying, but it's not going to happen.

My frustration is, if USAT had a rule like in AAU that would allow someone like my son to spar under Junior safety rules...there would be no problem. I mean, there is a huge difference (physically, mentally, etc.) between a 14 year old and a 17 year old...hell, between 14 and 15 year olds for that matter.

That's my rant, but here's a question...how do you more expereinced copaches deal with this issue? Does this even come up? I'm concerned that my son will lose "momentum" if he doesn't have nationals to look forward to...then again, he needs the time to mature and gain more expereince and groqth before going into the "headhunters" division. While it would be nice to have new rules...they aren't there in USAT at the moment.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Laurentkd]

You are right, it doesn't make any sense to have 14-17 sparring with full contact to the head. Especially boys. The difference between a 14 year old and a 17 is tremendous!!

It would be very difficult to be in your position. Like you said, you don't want to set him up to get hurt, but at the same time you don't want to discourage him either.
So why not take him to the AAU nationals instead? If those are the rules you like better, go for it. He has many years left to compete in USAT if he wants to go the Olympic route. Why not do AAU for awhile and then move back into USAT at a national level when he is ready?

 

[bluekey88]

Going to AAU nationals may be a possibility. However that will depend entirely on how he does this Saturday at the regional qualifiers. The USAT tournament is an open tournament so he wouldn't have to qualify ahead of time.

The other down side is that the coaches have been on the fence as whether to stick with USAT (as we have in the past) or going with AAU. There seemed to be an equal amount of organization/disorganization between the two groups. We are more familiar with USAT, but we have a good realtionship with the regional AAU president and he's been trying to get us to cross over for awhile now. In the end, we polled the team and parents and everyone decided they would much rather do the USAT nationals in San Jose this year. So, if Zak qualifies for AAU, we'd be on our own. We'd lose the comraderie of going as a team. Though, since the AAU event is in Florida, it'll be more affordable for us to get there.

I've not ruled this out. We'll see how things go.

The other trick is that my daughter (7) wants to go to nationals (she didnpt go last year and was put out a bit). Obviously she'll be ok to do all the events...it's just a mess trying to keep all this straight.

Peace,
Erik

 

[terryl965]

Erik we will be at AAU national in florida you can always be apart of our team while you are there my oldest just turned 13 today and I know your delimma I;m in the same boat I own and operate my son and have done all my sons training he is good but to be with a 17 year old please that is just being an ***. This is why we do AAU and USAT so he can stay safe and also have a chance for the Olympics one day.

 

[mango.man]

I am not familiar enough with AAU to know the "Team Building Process".

Past Process:
USAT however, JOs is what determines the Jr National Team. Therefore if you are going to be on the Jr National Team then you need to compete using international rules. For example last year's Jr team was comprised of all the 1st place winners at JOs. That team was in Vietnam a few weeks later competing at Jr Worlds. So let's say your kid competed and won with Jr Safety Rules at JOs and made the Jr team. Are you then not going to allow him to go to Jr Worlds because he might get killed in the ring?

This year:
There will be Team Trials to determine the Jr team rather then just taking the winners of the 14-17BBs and having them be the team. Still though do we want kids taking spots on the Jr team that are not prepared to fight internationally? I say no and since JOs is one step towards going to team trials I think the same rules should be in place as you will fight with if you are on the team.

USAT Nationals is not just a "let's go for fun" thing. At least not in my opinion. Especially at the 14-17BB and 14-32BB groups. The people fighting there are fighting for an opportunity to represent the USA.

 

[bluekey88]

That's a good point...BUT if you are going to have an open tournament (which is what USAT has...the world's are not open, but that's not the event I'm looking at here) then the dividions should better match the competitors. It is ludicrous to have a division where 14 year olds could go up against 17 yesr olds in full contact rules. It literally becomes dangerous to the younger kids. I feel as if the 14-17 bb div should either be split (14-5 and 16-17) OR some sort of rule similar to the AAU rule should be put into effect so as to keep the safety of the competitors at a higher standard.

The fact of the matter is that 99% of the kids going to USAT nationals are not going on to worlds or even have a shot at making the Olympic team. I think most of them know that (based on my experiences last year in Atlanta). If the event is just to find the best of the best...then the tournament shouldn't be an open event. Drop the open part of Nationals and just keep the World's...with the need to do well in the regional qualifiers to go. Better yet, made make the qualification process even more stringent (if we really want the best of the best and we want to weed out anyone that is not at that elite level). I'd heard tha tlast year, a lot of folks made it to World's because the divisions were so small at some of the regional qualifying events that medalling was almost a given. Why? Because there is an open tournament going at the same time as the world tournament that doesn't need a qualifier.

Right now it appears as if the USAT wants it both ways. There is this idea of only getting the best of the best of the best to go to World's (which is great...go for it), but then having this open national event opens up things to anyone who wants to go. THEN, there is a rule set that suddenly comes into play that frankly puts a section of the players at greater risk. Good players that could develop into top notch talent I might add...but because of the inherent risks of steppping up to the adult rules...often have to retire or quit becuase of factors beyond anyone's control (basically, how quickly and in what fashion one start/goes through puberty). It would be interesting to look at the 14-17 bb medal winners of the last few years and look at their ages and physical characteristics. I would bet the preponderance of winner will be older and/or more physically developed.

I dunno. This isn't just about my kid. I just think this section of the rules doesn't make sense and needs some tweaking. If that's not doable, then change how the tournament is structured.

Peace,
Erik

 

[bluekey88]

Erik we will be at AAU national in florida you can always be apart of our team while you are there my oldest just turned 13 today and I know your delimma I;m in the same boat I own and operate my son and have done all my sons training he is good but to be with a 17 year old please that is just being an ***. This is why we do AAU and USAT so he can stay safe and also have a chance for the Olympics one day.

Thanks you for the generous offer. You are very kind. This will be something I think about...I'll wait and see how things go Saturday first though.

Peace,
Erik

 

[mango.man]

It would be interesting to look at the 14-17 bb medal winners of the last few years and look at their ages and physical characteristics. I would bet the preponderance of winner will be older and/or more physically developed.

All team member bios are on the USAT website, including their age / height and weight. http://www.usa-taekwondo.us/92.htm and I see alot of 14-15 year olds.

And just so people do not think that I have these thoughts but no kid to put in the ring, my 14 yr old will be fighting both jr and sr qualifier in Portland. 1 of her competitors in her division for sr recently fought in the US Open in the 33-40 age group. I am confident that she will be fine, but you never really know. Bad things can, and have and will continue to happen at any age with any rules.

 

[bluekey88]

All team member bios are on the USAT website, including their age / height and weight. http://www.usa-taekwondo.us/92.htm and I see alot of 14-15 year olds.

I took a look at that link. I did some unoffocial, non-scientific numbers crunching. Here's the data. Looking at 2003, 2004, 2005 male teams there were a total of 30 athlertes listed (I would include 2002, but links to names became fewer and fewer...didn't want to scew the data). Of those 30, 21 were linked (8 were not, thus I could not easily find age and weight stats...I'm sure they're someplace). Also, of the 21 linked names, 3 names were listed twice (in consecutive years)...this leaves 18 male competitors that made the Junior National team between 2002 and 2005.

Now, looking at the 19 names I find one that would have been 14 at the time he competed...it was in the fin division. 1 athlete was 15 in the Bantam div. 2 were 16...the rest, 14 names were all 17 (one was almost 18) at the time of competition. The mode and median ages of this data set is 17. The mean age is 16.6...

I think that proves my point.

Listen, I'm not really trying to slag the USAT. I really do feel that the makeup of this division puts too much risk (in an already risky sport) to the younger competitors. I also feel that there are better ways to find the elite athletes (through the qualifiers...no need for an open tourny too). Anyone who can truly hang in that division is a fantastic athlete who has worked hard to get there...they have nothing but my deppest respect for their accomplishments. I would like to see a bit more equity though in how things are set up.

Mangoman - Good luck to your daughter in the upcoming national events.

Peace,
Erik

 

[wade]

Hey Mango.man, good luck to your daughter and when she's ready to get her medal come with her, I'll be the one working the awards table.

 

[mango.man]

Wade, I will keep my offer of throwing back a few brews with you as well.

 

[troubleenuf]

I have been coaching my kids for a long time at both the USTU/USTA and the AAU nationals. Just like in any sport some kids are just not ment to be at the National Level. Its just simple as that. I have kids every year that I tell that they just are not ready yet. Its up to the coach to be able to do this to keep them safe. I do believe that they could split the age to 14/15 and 16/17 to make it more fair (there is a huge difference between 14 and 17). But I dont know were we come up with the idea that everyone should be going to Nationals and if they cant something is wrong with the ages/rules. In fact what other sport does everyone go to National? If there is something wrong with the system its the idea that everyone should be there. If it were not for the ulmighty dollar speaking that would change in a hurry.
By the way, I had a 14 year old win gold last year in the 14-17 Black belt group... It can happen but its a tough road.

 

[Laurentkd]

I think that proves my point.

Listen, I'm not really trying to slag the USAT. I really do feel that the makeup of this division puts too much risk (in an already risky sport) to the younger competitors. I also feel that there are better ways to find the elite athletes (through the qualifiers...no need for an open tourny too). Anyone who can truly hang in that division is a fantastic athlete who has worked hard to get there...they have nothing but my deppest respect for their accomplishments. I would like to see a bit more equity though in how things are set up.

Mangoman - Good luck to your daughter in the upcoming national events.

Peace,
Erik

I think this is the issue here. Any other competitor at junior olympics has a "fair shot" because they are competing against fighters who are maximum one year older than them. I just don't think 14-17 is a good age bracket for a contact sport. Can anyone else name any sport in which 14 year olds compete against 17 year olds as a requirement?

 

[Carol]

Being a band geek I know nothing about high school athletics but I seem to recall that incoming freshmen could compete at tryouts to play on the varsity squads of my school's sports. If they made it they competed with other schools varsity athletes.

The difference being...the 13 and 14 year olds didn't necessarily make it to the varsity level their first time out....and our school had freshman teams to organize those that didn't.

And then this one time...at band camp...oh I'll stop there.

 

[Laurentkd]

Being a band geek I know nothing about high school athletics but I seem to recall that incoming freshmen could compete at tryouts to play on the varsity squads of my school's sports. If they made it they competed with other schools varsity athletes.

The difference being...the 13 and 14 year olds didn't necessarily make it to the varsity level their first time out....and our school had freshman teams to organize those that didn't.

And then this one time...at band camp...oh I'll stop there.

haha! Good point. If there were younger athletes that could compete against older ones they were given that opportunity. But, just as you said, if they weren't ready there were freshmen teams, and often sophomore teams (I went to a large school) and then JV and Varsity. This allowed the "needs" of each athlete to be met, and everyone could compete on a competitive basis at their level.

I always also a band nerd (saxophone) but tried to balance it out with softball (probably still a nerd though!!) .

 

[mango.man]

haha! Good point. If there were younger athletes that could compete against older ones they were given that opportunity. But, just as you said, if they weren't ready there were freshmen teams, and often sophomore teams (I went to a large school) and then JV and Varsity. This allowed the "needs" of each athlete to be met, and everyone could compete on a competitive basis at their level.

So you go to competitions based on the level of competition that they provide. Nobody would go to an NFL game and expect them to provide a venue for high schoolers to play football. You go to the NFL to see the pros or compete against the pros.

TKD Nationals is the same at certain age levels. If you do not want to watch or play with the pros then go find an amature game somewhere. There is no lack of local tournaments across the nation on any given weekend.

 

[Laurentkd]

So you go to competitions based on the level of competition that they provide. Nobody would go to an NFL game and expect them to provide a venue for high schoolers to play football. You go to the NFL to see the pros or compete against the pros.

TKD Nationals is the same at certain age levels. If you do not want to watch or play with the pros then go find an armature game somewhere. There is no lack of local tournaments across the nation on any given weekend.

You are right. If you want to see best of the best college age kids you go to college sports, if you want to see best of the best high school kids you go to high school games. If you want to see kids compete in TKD you go to the junior olympics. That is the EXACT venue for them! I think this is where we are not lining up--- I am not saying that below par kids should compete at nationals, what I am saying is I want to see best of the best 14 year olds compete against best of the best 14 year olds, not best of the best 17 year olds.

The NFL shouldn't have a venue for high school, because high school has it's own venue. But the JR OLYMPICS for TKD IS THE venue for kids (juniors) to compete. The venue is exactly correct. I just want to see fairer divisions within that venue. You don't see 14 year olds forced to compete against 17 year olds in any sport (at least none I can think of).

 

[mango.man]

If you want to see kids compete in TKD you go to the junior olympics. That is the EXACT venue for them! I think this is where we are not lining up--- I am not saying that below par kids should compete at nationals, what I am saying is I want to see best of the best 14 year olds compete against best of the best 14 year olds, not best of the best 17 year olds.

I think at this point we will just have to agree to disagree on this point. Since JOs is traditionally the path to the ultimate goal of making the Jr National Team that gets to travel internationally to represent the USA, I think that they should have to meet that goal by playing by the same rules they will use internationally.

And those are WTF rules that 14-17 compete against each other, not USAT. USAT is just following WTF guidelines.

Also keep in mind under these rules it is based on the age you will be during the calendar year. Therefore there is potential that a person turning 18 on Jan 1, 2008 will fight a person who turns 14 on Dec 31, 2007. Basically pitting an 18 year old vs 13 year old on July 14, 2007 in San Jose. That is just the way it is and if your 13 year old is ready to represent team USA that is what they will have to overcome.

 

[Laurentkd]

I think at this point we will just have to agree to disagree on this point. Since JOs is traditionally the path to the ultimate goal of making the Jr National Team that gets to travel internationally to represent the USA, I think that they should have to meet that goal by playing by the same rules they will use internationally.

And those are WTF rules that 14-17 compete against each other, not USAT. USAT is just following WTF guidelines.

Also keep in mind under these rules it is based on the age you will be during the calendar year. Therefore there is potential that a person turning 18 on Jan 1, 2008 will fight a person who turns 14 on Dec 31, 2007. Basically pitting an 18 year old vs 13 year old on July 14, 2007 in San Jose. That is just the way it is and if your 13 year old is ready to represent team USA that is what they will have to overcome.

I agree. Those are the rules, and if you want to play you have to play by them. It would just be cool if there was another option for 13 year olds who are great ad who can compete without going against 18 year olds (per your example). But, since there isn't you have to either put up or or go to another good tournament (such as AAU).
Cheers

 

[troubleenuf]

Actually if you turn 18 in the calender year you must fight in the senior group...