You ARE or WERE a Black Belt.

[Earl Weiss]

To a large extent we are al products of our training.

Had an instructor that used to say, "If you stop training, take your belt and uniform and put it in the bottom of a drawer and forget about it unless or untill you start training again."
His point was if you don't use it you lose it. So, forget about being a black belt forever if you stop training. (This goes hand in glove with the 1 year first dan probation which I get some flack for on these boards, but it's established on day one of the student's training, and has been in effect for 35 years now.)


I always figured that to certain extent people who show up to get a certificate and then quit have the wrong outlook. At the lowest levels I don't take an opportunity to "Educate them" since I fear that doing so will forever turn them off to ever train again. But I can't help but wonder what mom and dad are really thinking about having Bobby come just to get that yellow stripe certificate and then never to return.

Your thoughts.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The kids would rather play video games, and the parents would rather not pay for lessons; thats why.
Sean

 

[d1jinx]

while I may agree with you, here's a similar scenario that anyone can decide...

you go to school for 4 years and get your Electrical Engineering Degree. You accept a job NOT dealing with your degrees background,
do you throw your degree away and say you have NO degree because you don't currently "exercise" what you studied for 4 years?

Next scenario:

You study MA your whole life and obtain a 8th degree BB. However you are too old and physically unable to display the skills you once had, do you throw the paper away and not call yourself a BB because you cannot physically "do it" anymore?

Third Scenario:

Muhammad Ali was world champion, now he is physically diminishing and not a fraction of his former self, do we dismiss how great he was and no longer acknowledge his accomplishments in the past?


I guess my point, if any, is you can not take away anyones accomplishments because they have gone dormant. And when you do re-engage, it will come back to you eventually. so why dismiss it?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Promotion is permanent unless rescinded. It may not be recognized by other schools, systems, instructors, etc. It may not represent the person you were when you achieved it. But those are different distinctions. And frankly, since the rank of 'Black Belt' varies so widely between schools, systems, instructors, and students, I am not sure that you can even say that a person who 'was' a black belt is no longer a black belt after X period of time inactive. Some 'retired' black belts, I am sure, could kick the bejabbers out of a newly-minted black belt of the same system, depending on the people involved. There just is no level playing field by which people can be judged based on the belt around their waists.

I am a san-kyu (Brown Belt) in Isshin-Ryu, and both my Sensei and the UIKA have recognized my rank. If I step in front of a truck tomorrow and never train again, I remain a san-kyu unless and until that rank is revoked.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Promotion is permanent unless rescinded. It may not be recognized by other schools, systems, instructors, etc. It may not represent the person you were when you achieved it. But those are different distinctions. And frankly, since the rank of 'Black Belt' varies so widely between schools, systems, instructors, and students, I am not sure that you can even say that a person who 'was' a black belt is no longer a black belt after X period of time inactive. Some 'retired' black belts, I am sure, could kick the bejabbers out of a newly-minted black belt of the same system, depending on the people involved. There just is no level playing field by which people can be judged based on the belt around their waists.

I am a san-kyu (Brown Belt) in Isshin-Ryu, and both my Sensei and the UIKA have recognized my rank. If I step in front of a truck tomorrow and never train again, I remain a san-kyu unless and until that rank is revoked.

Try explaining that your black belt was rescinded, when trying to compete in the beginners devision at a tournament.
Sean

 

[dancingalone]

It's a lot like bragging about something you did as a kid in high school, perhaps. Maybe you're Al Bundy and you still talk about that touchdown you scored in a game. Yet the longer out it gets and the older Al gets, the more pathetic the boasting seems.

So, you've earned a black belt. Awesome, it's worth a pat on the back or two. But what if you earned it as a pup and you've not practiced for 15 years or more? Well... I wouldn't go around boasting about it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

To a large extent we are al products of our training.

Had an instructor that used to say, "If you stop training, take your belt and uniform and put it in the bottom of a drawer and forget about it unless or untill you start training again."
His point was if you don't use it you lose it. So, forget about being a black belt forever if you stop training. (This goes hand in glove with the 1 year first dan probation which I get some flack for on these boards, but it's established on day one of the student's training, and has been in effect for 35 years now.)


I always figured that to certain extent people who show up to get a certificate and then quit have the wrong outlook. At the lowest levels I don't take an opportunity to "Educate them" since I fear that doing so will forever turn them off to ever train again. But I can't help but wonder what mom and dad are really thinking about having Bobby come just to get that yellow stripe certificate and then never to return.

Your thoughts.

From the training perspective, to get the belt and the cert, stop training, but still consider yourself "a black belt" with regards to your current skills is self deluding.

If you are talking about kids, they don't understand the concept of being a blackbelt versus having a blackbelt and holding a first dan.

As to what mom and dad are really thinking, I suspect that they view it as childhood enrichment; last year was piano lessons. this year its karate. Next year its soccor.

For the person who trains and then quits, it is easy for those of us who keep on to view their time as being spent for nothing more than a belt and a cert. But there are life lessons that a student can learn in the geub ranks and retain long after cesation of their physical training.

I think that we simply have to accept that we will only have the student for a limited amount of time. After a certain point, they will either quit, move on to another art or another school, or open their own school. However much time we have them for, we should teach them to the best of our ability.

Daniel

 

[tinker1]

Originally Posted by Bill Mattocks
Promotion is permanent unless rescinded. It may not be recognized by other schools, systems, instructors, etc.

I agree. If you earn a degree at University, that degree is yours - it doesn't matter if you've stopped studying or applying that knowledge. You remain of that scholastic "rank" forever.

I have seen Grand Masters "rescind" a person's Dan rank - simply because that person left his school and either trained somewhere else, or decided to open their own school under their name (not under the name of the GM). This I believe is a travesty.

Another issue is : ARE or WERE you a Martial Artist?

I believe this question really involves whether or not attaining the Dan rank was a transformational experience for you.

For example, my Father was a Marine. The experience of becoming a Marine is a transformational experience for most (actually ALL the ex-Marines I've ever met). Once a Marine, always a Marine - as they say.

So it's more about how you define yourself.

Some people train, and it's just something they do. A hobby, or a fitness activity - that's all. They may "have" or "earn" a Dan rank, but it's really not part of who they are. Of those people I doubt they really ever were a martial artist.

For me, 1st Dan in TKD and Kenpo were both transformational experiences. Like the gauntlet for the Marines.

My TKD 1st Dan test lasted for 2 days. We slept at the dojang, and senior black belts were given license to sneak in while we slept (briefly) and attack us. We were tested on EVERYTHING we learned since we walked in the door. We also had to write papers on the Martial Arts. We did our basics, we did form, we sparred .. in TKD rules, Point rules, Full Contact (PKA) rules, 2 on 1, 4 on 1, even 10 on 1. We defended against knives, clubs, and guns. We demonstrated escapes from all sorts of holds. We were tested on our teaching abilities. We were also required to have entered at least 1 competition. We ran, we did push ups, sit ups. We carried each other up hills. We broke boards with every strike we knew - left and right sides. We broke bricks.

It was a transforming experience. For me, it made me a martial artist - as part of how I define myself as a person. No one can ever take that away from me.

 

[punisher73]

while I may agree with you, here's a similar scenario that anyone can decide...

you go to school for 4 years and get your Electrical Engineering Degree. You accept a job NOT dealing with your degrees background,
do you throw your degree away and say you have NO degree because you don't currently "exercise" what you studied for 4 years?

Next scenario:

You study MA your whole life and obtain a 8th degree BB. However you are too old and physically unable to display the skills you once had, do you throw the paper away and not call yourself a BB because you cannot physically "do it" anymore?

Third Scenario:

Muhammad Ali was world champion, now he is physically diminishing and not a fraction of his former self, do we dismiss how great he was and no longer acknowledge his accomplishments in the past?


I guess my point, if any, is you can not take away anyones accomplishments because they have gone dormant. And when you do re-engage, it will come back to you eventually. so why dismiss it?

All apples and oranges IMO.

1) If you earn your degree in EE and accept a job not in the field, you tell people you have a degree in EE, you don't go around telling people you are an engineer.

2) You are physically unable to perform? So what?. Do you still mentor and help those within your style? You seem to equate only the physical skills with rank. If you stop and don't do it any longer and have no more study, than if asked you should say "I held the rank of 8th degree". You aren't denying or throwing away the rank, but also acknowledging that it isn't something you still do.

3) Ali, again when he is referred to it is as the "Former HW Champ". Just like politicians, presidents and other titles granted while doing the occupation at hand.

I don't think that it should "go away". But, if you had a BB when you were in your late teens and now you are in your 60's. I would not say I AM a BB, I would say that I HAD a BB. Still acknowledging the achievement, but not saying that you still maintain those skills that you once had.

 

[Carol]

All apples and oranges IMO.

1) If you earn your degree in EE and accept a job not in the field, you tell people you have a degree in EE, you don't go around telling people you are an engineer.

2) You are physically unable to perform? So what?. Do you still mentor and help those within your style? You seem to equate only the physical skills with rank. If you stop and don't do it any longer and have no more study, than if asked you should say "I held the rank of 8th degree". You aren't denying or throwing away the rank, but also acknowledging that it isn't something you still do.

3) Ali, again when he is referred to it is as the "Former HW Champ". Just like politicians, presidents and other titles granted while doing the occupation at hand.

I don't think that it should "go away". But, if you had a BB when you were in your late teens and now you are in your 60's. I would not say I AM a BB, I would say that I HAD a BB. Still acknowledging the achievement, but not saying that you still maintain those skills that you once had.

Being an engineer myself, I know several degreed engineers that describe themselves as "engineers", regardless of whether they are working as an engineer at that moment or not.

Personally I think if a person puts in the time, energy, sacrifices, and usually the money to earn an achievement, that achievement is theirs. It does not go away.

 

[JohnEdward]

This is one problem, I don't think is so often discussed concerning the issue of rank. Rank doesn't have standardization. It differs from what it means, how it is treated, and the qualifications from style to style, school, to school, instructor to instructor. My instructor was from Japan, and according to the stories he told, it seemed rank had more standardization then it does today. Kano Jigro is credited for today's rank/grade system which he standardize for Judo. I guess in Japan that stuck for awhile with little deviation. Kano being an educator, a rank was like a degree/diploma it showed that you accomplish a skill level tied to a grade. Similar in respect to finishing up a grade. Once you got it, it couldn't be taken away. It was yours. 1st degree back in the day was getting your high school diploma and awarded the rank of lieutenant for lack of a better example. Like in ROTC. You can't take that away, like any merit. Today, that has expanded and treated under all sorts of different umbrellas of circumstance.

If you bury that belt in your clothes drawer, as you haven't practiced in sometime, it is a noble act. It speaks of skill backing up rank. On the other hand, is your rank based on skill not of fighting, but of knowledge in preservation through ceremony, which allot of traditional Japanese martial arts are about, like, Iaido, Kudo, Najanata etc.? If so than that is non-combative skill and if you stop practicing it doesn't mean you don't still process that knowledge. The bottom line for me is once you earn a rank it symbolizes skill and knowledge. If your skill wanes because of age, you stop training once you get it, or something like that, it doesn't mean you still didn't earn what it represents.

People have to be honest with themselves, and look at rank as what it was first intended for as a merit award. If you're not training and your fighting skill is under par of the time you earned your rank, telling the world you have a black belt may impress the water cooler crowd, but what push comes to shove, the truth will be told.

 

[ATC]

Too much emphasis on the physical. If that is all you equate black belt with then there are some no belts that can be considered a black belt.


To me, it is more about the knowledge and the passing of that knowledge then your physical abilities. Many grandmasters are not even close to as good as they were when younger and don't or can't train anymore. But they can always pass the knowledge.


To me it is more about the knowledge than the pure physical. The phyiscal is more for the young than the wise.

 

[punisher73]

Being an engineer myself, I know several degreed engineers that describe themselves as "engineers", regardless of whether they are working as an engineer at that moment or not.

Personally I think if a person puts in the time, energy, sacrifices, and usually the money to earn an achievement, that achievement is theirs. It does not go away.

But did they ever work in the field? The example given was someone who just earned their degree and took a job doing something else. My degree is in Psychology, I don't go around telling people I'm a psychologist. When I quit/retire law enforcement I am no longer a police officer, I "used to be".

I understand that life happens sometimes, and we worked in the field and still maintain standards and keep up on the newest stuff while doing something else because you are still doing what you were trained to do. Just like a BB that might not be in a school somewhere, but still practices and has a personal study.

 

[puunui]

Had an instructor that used to say, "If you stop training, take your belt and uniform and put it in the bottom of a drawer and forget about it unless or untill you start training again."

If any student quits training, dan holder or not, I don't rescind their rank or tell them what to do with their belt and uniform. Once I give them something, it's theirs forever.

 

[dancingalone]

Being an engineer myself, I know several degreed engineers that describe themselves as "engineers", regardless of whether they are working as an engineer at that moment or not.

Don't you have to be licensed as an engineer in many states in order to call yourself one [legally]?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

For example, my Father was a Marine. The experience of becoming a Marine is a transformational experience for most (actually ALL the ex-Marines I've ever met). Once a Marine, always a Marine - as they say.

Side-note: I *am* a Marine. There are no 'ex-Marines'. And yes, it is, as you said, 'transformational'. One 'joins' the Army, Navy, or Air Force. One 'becomes' a Marine. With all due respect to Rush, some changes *are* permanent.

 

[Carol]

Don't you have to be licensed as an engineer in many states in order to call yourself one [legally]?

Only if you offer engineering services to the public. That is the legal distinction.

For those that do, they only have to pass the exam once to be a PE.

 

[mastercole]

So many different situations. Basically, once a Dan holder, always a Dan holder.

You also have many types of Dan holders that can fall into many groups.

- student
- coach
- trainer
- Referee
- master- instructor
- grandmaster - instructor
- event organizer
- political officer
- supporters
- athlete (competitor)
- testing panel members
- instructors academy leaders
- researchers/scholars
- writers/producers

and more..

They all serve an important purpose and none should take off their belt because they are not doing what the other does. Once a Dan holder, always a Dan holder.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Interesting to see how my post was interpreted.
FWIW I did not mean to insinuate rank is lost or revoked.
It had more to do with ones personal mindset.

 

[Carol]

But did they ever work in the field? The example given was someone who just earned their degree and took a job doing something else. My degree is in Psychology, I don't go around telling people I'm a psychologist. When I quit/retire law enforcement I am no longer a police officer, I "used to be".

I understand that life happens sometimes, and we worked in the field and still maintain standards and keep up on the newest stuff while doing something else because you are still doing what you were trained to do. Just like a BB that might not be in a school somewhere, but still practices and has a personal study.

You stil have that degree in psych, do you not? Did you give that up because you are not a psychologist?

You are still an alum of your university are you not? Did you give that up because you stopped going to school?

You're a graduate of a police academy too, correct? Will you no longer be a graduate when you are no longer in LE?

As far as my friends, I know at least one did not work in the field, until very recently. She passed her PE when she was pregnant but chose to stay home with her kids instead.