The way I like it

[dancingalone]

Well, just think about the simple example I posed earlier of the reverse punch. It's not seen frequently in Olympic TKD sparring, but consider it outside of that context with and without hogu. Without a hogu, reverse punches are very painful, even if you don't deliver it full force by design or because the target managed to slip away to minimize the power delivered. With a hogu, if you don't land it flush with hips thrust forward, the target will feel some hard pressure on his torso, but that's it. The hogu also takes away any non-concussive type attacks like a claw hand or a spear hand or even a knife hand in some respects.

This is coming from someone like me who deliberately builds up his reverse punch by using makiwara.

Of course your mileage may vary if all you do is sport type kicking and punching.

 

[goingd]

I have knocked the wind out of people, and knocked them down with a reverse punch while they were wearing hogu. I have had the same thing done to me. Without it there would have been some breakage. With a hogu, one can certainly still hurt.

 

[dancingalone]

Read the comment I made about hip movement with hogu...Unless you're saying you still managed to hurt someone with a glancing shot. In that case, I defer to thee, Mr. Muscles.

 

[Manny]

Sparring does not mean to kill or finish your parthner c'mon. Sparring is used to test your fighting abilities or skills inside a safe enviromental place (dojang), so you don't need to almost kill your partner.

I'm against using full covering armour type safety equipment and I'm against to not use some safety equipment too.

Even with light safety equipment for example gloves a good blow to the solar plexus is desvasting, or even a hook kick to the head wearing a helmet can be a KO, we practiced MA so we have to have in mind that we are going to get some blows.

I have two real stories about me I like to tell you.

When I was a fresh BB I did kyorugi with a red belt in my dojang, this red belt was a very feracius competitor, he was a better fighter than me, he was pretty fast,acurated and good kicker so I knew I have to kept him at bay and couter him, so I used my sidekicks very well to the point he went mad and caught my in the face with a spining/jumping round house kick (something like a tornado kick), I was wearing nothing but my dobok, it was a TKO I had to stay out of dojang for almost two monts till my theet go well, I have to pay big bucks for a maxilar surgeon to put my theet in place and had to use some kind of steel wire to keep my theets in place.

A few years afther this incident using Hogu,shin/instep pads and even the head gear doing sparring in the dojang in the heat of the battle the sambonim yeld KOMA (stop) and my parthner did not stoped and gave a full spinning hook kick to the face and broke my nose, even using the head gear, you know the end, hospital,surgery,medicines,doctors and some time recovering from the injure.

My point is, we must use some safery equipment not only for us but our partner, a mouth guard is mandatory, gloves and shin/instep too, some guys use foam boots and that's good because they can minimize a broken nose for example.

We don't have to kill our oponent inside the dojan using the rules, outside in the streets and if our life is compromise then go brutal.

My two cents.

Manny

 

[ACJ]

Well, just think about the simple example I posed earlier of the reverse punch. It's not seen frequently in Olympic TKD sparring, but consider it outside of that context with and without hogu. Without a hogu, reverse punches are very painful, even if you don't deliver it full force by design or because the target managed to slip away to minimize the power delivered. With a hogu, if you don't land it flush with hips thrust forward, the target will feel some hard pressure on his torso, but that's it. The hogu also takes away any non-concussive type attacks like a claw hand or a spear hand or even a knife hand in some respects.

This is coming from someone like me who deliberately builds up his reverse punch by using makiwara.

Of course your mileage may vary if all you do is sport type kicking and punching.

Yeah we don't do reverse punch so much as a sort of rip to the body, and you can feel those suckers. And you can throw a flurry pretty quickly too, and the rips would be quite useful translated into a real SD scenario, with little to no modification from our sport style punch, whereas I'd question the effectiveness of a claw hand or spear hand outside a sports context (We don't use them in either.

But essentially we will always differ sports training from SD anyway, and we train to win a game, then we train to survive. They don't mix too well.

 

[ACJ]

Read the comment I made about hip movement with hogu...Unless you're saying you still managed to hurt someone with a glancing shot. In that case, I defer to thee, Mr. Muscles.

But they are still training to hit as hard as they can, so they aren't down training really, and I'm not seeing the downside atm. So point it out if you can.

 

[dancingalone]

But they are still training to hit as hard as they can, so they aren't down training really, and I'm not seeing the downside atm. So point it out if you can.

It's very simple: If you aren't hurt by an attack, you slowly condition yourself to ignore it over time. This has negative repercussions outside of the dojang.

I don't really know what you mean by a 'rip', but I am 6'2 210 lbs. I'm fairly strong with decent speed for my size. When I wear a hogu, I will rarely worry about a reverse punch to my torso area unless it's coming from someone of like size to me or someone I know has great technical proficiency. Due to my size and conditioning, I can simply shrug off the effects and even walk through a 'good' punch from smaller or less skilled fighters when wearing a hogu. Without a hogu, heck yeah I'm going to be more careful protecting myself, as I know all my students have decent enough punching power and technique.

whereas I'd question the effectiveness of a claw hand or spear hand outside a sports context

Just goes to show how differently we all train based on our goals. Punching probably the least effective method of striking with the hands. Even wonder why Chinese martial arts have so many esoterical strikes? It's because they train to hit all parts of the body, including those outlawed in sport sparring such as the throat or neck. Muscle and tendon ripping is also a staple which obviously can't be done with gloved punching.

I don't practice sport combat at all, so it should be no surprise why I don't use hogu at all in my school. Most of the time, we use a mouthpiece and that's it, even during free sparring. It's amazing how good your defense gets when real pain becomes a possibility...

 

[ACJ]

It's very simple: If you aren't hurt by an attack, you slowly condition yourself to ignore it over time. This has negative repercussions outside of the dojang.

Oh, I see where you are coming from, I thought you were coming from the point as it was a disadvantage to the training of the attacker, not the receiver.

I would say that the sports context would never teach you to ignore the strike as a hurting blow is not required to score, thus each hit is important.

I would also say that as a training tool for the person attacking, shields and such are very useful. Having a person unable to attack you because of the pain you are causing them is unrealistic at best.

I don't really know what you mean by a 'rip', but I am 6'2 210 lbs. I'm fairly strong with decent speed for my size. When I wear a hogu, I will rarely worry about a reverse punch to my torso area unless it's coming from someone of like size to me or someone I know has great technical proficiency. Due to my size and conditioning, I can simply shrug off the effects and even walk through a 'good' punch from smaller or less skilled fighters when wearing a hogu. Without a hogu, heck yeah I'm going to be more careful protecting myself, as I know all my students have decent enough punching power and technique.

A rip is like an uppercut to the body. It hurts.

Just goes to show how differently we all train based on our goals. Punching probably the least effective method of striking with the hands. Even wonder why Chinese martial arts have so many esoterical strikes? It's because they train to hit all parts of the body, including those outlawed in sport sparring such as the throat or neck. Muscle and tendon ripping is also a staple which obviously can't be done with gloved punching.

I don't practice sport combat at all, so it should be no surprise why I don't use hogu at all in my school. Most of the time, we use a mouthpiece and that's it, even during free sparring. It's amazing how good your defense gets when real pain becomes a possibility...

Ever wonder why such strikes are esoterical [sic]? Why they aren't a major part of most military organisations' training?

And like a few people have said already, pain is a possibility, even with a hogu.

 

[dancingalone]

A rip is like an uppercut to the body. It hurts.

And like a few people have said already, pain is a possibility, even with a hogu.

Never said it wasn't. It's just that the chances of pain happening are SO MUCH LESSENED, by design. I feel like a broken record: when you use protective gear all the time, you are conditioning yourself to be used to them. This can have bad effects outside the dojo.

Ever wonder why such strikes are esoterical [sic]? Why they aren't a major part of most military organisations' training?

Because they require extreme amounts of conditioning and drilling to be effective. Of course if you make that investment, your skills will be both finely honed and lethal. Compare that to the average military recruit that might get a 6 week course in basic HTH combat that comprises of rudimentary kicking and punching.

Punching is like using a hammer to pound in some screws, but if that's all you practice, more power to you. We all make choices on what and how we want to train. I myself devote a lot of time to punching a makiwara, but I'd be doing myself a disservice if that's all I practice.

 

[ACJ]

Never said it wasn't.

Actually "It's amazing how good your defense gets when real pain becomes a possibility..." is saying pretty much exactly that.

It's just that the chances of pain happening are SO MUCH LESSENED, by design. I feel like a broken record: when you use protective gear all the time, you are conditioning yourself to be used to them. This can have bad effects outside the dojo.

And good. And coupled with the fact that outside competition is not what that training is designed for, means that your point is even less valid.

Because they require extreme amounts of conditioning and drilling to be effective. Of course if you make that investment, your skills will be both finely honed and lethal. Compare that to the average military recruit that might get a 6 week course in basic HTH combat that comprises of rudimentary kicking and punching.

Punching is like using a hammer to pound in some screws, but if that's all you practice, more power to you. We all make choices on what and how we want to train. I myself devote a lot of time to punching a makiwara, but I'd be doing myself a disservice if that's all I practice.

I was talking about in depth unarmed combat courses, that some number of military personnel undergo. They only train the most effective moves, if what you trained was truly more effective, even after plenty of training, we would see it cropping up more in military programs that go beyond, 'here's a quick crash course, hopefully you won't need it'. But it doesn't. Because you can be more effective quicker by not using those techniques and you can be more effective in the long run by not using those techniques.

Just to be clear I am not talking about just punches here, but a wide range of movements including grappling, striking, unarmed vs weapon, throat attacks, joint manipulation, etc.

We don't just teach punching, we teach everything that is effective for self defence, if someone is finding that spearhands and such are effective tools for them, we will encourage them to practice those skills, but such a case is rare, and for good reason.

 

[dancingalone]

Actually "It's amazing how good your defense gets when real pain becomes a possibility..." is saying pretty much exactly that.

And good. And coupled with the fact that outside competition is not what that training is designed for, means that your point is even less valid.

Hmm, if you're training sport sparring from the premise that it's not all at applicable or relevant to the outside world, I have no quibble with it. My point within this thread is precisely that you are doing yourself a disservice for street application if all you do is hogu/protective wear based training.

I was talking about in depth unarmed combat courses, that some number of military personnel undergo. They only train the most effective moves, if what you trained was truly more effective, even after plenty of training, we would see it cropping up more in military programs that go beyond, 'here's a quick crash course, hopefully you won't need it'. But it doesn't. Because you can be more effective quicker by not using those techniques and you can be more effective in the long run by not using those techniques.

Quick usually is mutually exclusive with traditional Chinese martial arts training methods. Not sure why you're manufacturing a debate with me over this. The professional militaries have entirely different goals - no surprise they in turn would develop very different pedagogy or philosophy.

Likewise the methods I use are a result of my training goals. I don't train for killing someone quickly and silently. I don't train to fight people with long swords or handguns. I train for common armed and unarmed attacks from medium and short ranges.

Just to be clear I am not talking about just punches here, but a wide range of movements including grappling, striking, unarmed vs weapon, throat attacks, joint manipulation, etc.

OK. So let me get this straight. You use hogu when training for all those activities?

We don't just teach punching, we teach everything that is effective for self defence, if someone is finding that spearhands and such are effective tools for them, we will encourage them to practice those skills, but such a case is rare, and for good reason.

You probably think of a spear hand as only a strike in of itself which may explain why you think their use is limited. All motions have their usages, and some like the spear hand become much more relevant when you think of them as components of a larger combined flow of movement.

 

[ACJ]

OK. So let me get this straight. You use hogu when training for all those activities?

Nope. Different part of the discussion.

You probably think of a spear hand as only a strike in of itself which may explain why you think their use is limited. All motions have their usages, and some like the spear hand become much more relevant when you think of them as components of a larger combined flow of movement.

This makes me question your experience with real fights. Have you been in any fights? Has your instructor? Do you know how quickly a fight usually is?

 

[dancingalone]

Nope. Different part of the discussion.




This makes me question your experience with real fights. Have you been in any fights? Has your instructor? Do you know how quickly a fight usually is?

Ah, the whip it out and compare contest invitation. No, thanks. I thought we were having a discussion, but I guess you thought we were verbally sparring instead.

Good day and good luck to you.

 

[ACJ]

Ah, the whip it out and compare contest invitation. No, thanks. I thought we were having a discussion, but I guess you thought we were verbally sparring instead.

Good day and good luck to you.

This is part of a discussion, whether the skills you are practising are part of a reality driven and tested mode;, or whether they are based in fantasy land. I myself have never been in a fight (smart me), so this is not a "well i kick chumps in the face every weekend at the bar" BS.

You presuming this sort of tact seems to me like you lack any. But it may have just been a miscommunication based in your prejudice.