The Tuition Struggle - Students w/o $ but may greatly benefit from MA training

[tsd]

Here is a question for the group, stemming out of the "$50/lesson" thread.

Do you have different tuition scales for different students/populations? How do you manage this? Have you seen this be a successful approach? or cause more problems for you then the benefit to the individuals?

I am often torn between those who will most benefit from training (i.e. at risk youth) but may not have disposable income vs. economics of maintaining a full time school.

 

[KempoGuy06]

This is a suggestion but may work. Can you set up something to where they could work off the tuition? Clean the mats, vaccum, mop anything that they could do to help you and you to help them. Just an idea but I have seen stuff like this done before.

B

 

[MarkBarlow]

I'm the original soft touch. Someone gives me a sob story and I'll tell them not to worry about it, just pay when they can. There have been a couple of times that the student stepped up to the plate and really became an outstanding martial artist. Unfortunately, every other time, the student acted as though since it didn't cost anything, it wasn't worth anything.

Knowing what a shmuck I am, I'll continue to scholarship students with financial problems and hope more of them benefit.

 

[tsd]

I'm the original soft touch. Someone gives me a sob story and I'll tell them not to worry about it, just pay when they can. There have been a couple of times that the student stepped up to the plate and really became an outstanding martial artist. Unfortunately, every other time, the student acted as though since it didn't cost anything, it wasn't worth anything.

Knowing what a shmuck I am, I'll continue to scholarship students with financial problems and hope more of them benefit.

This is what my instructor told me was his experience. But I really believe the "if I am able to help just one person either physically (self defense) or emotionally (self confidence and success in life)

I think I will also often be the softie.

 

[stoneheart]

I teach in a community center and charge $25 a month. The small charge is more to keep students invested in their learning than anything else. All tuition is actually used to buy mats and pads and other learning materials so I'm making no money at all, and that's fine with me.

New students are interviewed by me to make sure we're a good fit for each other. I don't teach punchy-kicky karate, so I want all my students to understand that there is a responsibility they must respect to only use the knowledge I teach them when their lives and well-being are in jeopardy. The interview tends to weed out people who are just bored and are looking for a casual activity to follow.

If someone really could not even afford the $25, I would be willing to waive it. I recently added a newly divorced mother and her teenaged daughter to my class. They're exactly the kind of people who benefit from self-defense training, and so I don't charge them anything since I know money is tight right now for them.

 

[tsd]

This is a suggestion but may work. Can you set up something to where they could work off the tuition? Clean the mats, vaccum, mop anything that they could do to help you and you to help them. Just an idea but I have seen stuff like this done before.

B

And did the student really value the training they were getting in trade?

 

[jks9199]

Students should always pay for their training. However, payment doesn't have to be cash... They might help with chores around the school, or be required to make some sort of volunteer service contribution to the community, or, in some cases, even help the teacher with tasks around home. For example, one person I know "paid" for his training by mowing his teacher's lawn each week. (There are other concerns - like liability - with this.)

 

[Grenadier]

Teaching someone for free is a noble thought, and there will sometimes be an outstanding individual who loves the training, and becomes a top notch practitioner of the arts.

However, for the most part, the ones receiving free lessons are not going to be ones who stick around for the long term. Why?

Part of the reason is because they're going to balk at the other costs associated with the martial arts, such as supplies, other fees, etc. They're certainly not going to spend the $$$ to get a better quality uniform (instead of the cheap student uniforms), and when it comes to exam times, I've actually had parents insist that their child was not ready, insisting that their child should stay at the current rank, just to avoid having to spend money on an exam.

In some cases, I've even seen some folks quit because they did not want to pay the extra costs of gasoline, since they lived 12 miles away, and that they complained of having to spend a gallon's worth of gas for each lesson.

In most other cases, though, people who receive free lessons aren't going to see a value in them. They'll see it as something that just happened to come by their way, and that they aren't going to try to get their money's worth out of it, since they didn't pay in the first place.

Most people (and that includes your students) will generally perceive a greater value to their training, if they pay for it. In fact, people tend to believe that they're getting a superior product if they pay more for it. It sounds silly, but that's the way the business cookie crumbles.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I'm the original soft touch. Someone gives me a sob story and I'll tell them not to worry about it, just pay when they can. There have been a couple of times that the student stepped up to the plate and really became an outstanding martial artist. Unfortunately, every other time, the student acted as though since it didn't cost anything, it wasn't worth anything.

Knowing what a shmuck I am, I'll continue to scholarship students with financial problems and hope more of them benefit.

Hey Mark I am just like you and know the pain and happiness of being so. One thing I did to try and isolate myself from this was to create a dojo administrator position to deal with this. Still in the end I am a softy and always try to help people out. :shrug:

 

[kidswarrior]

I'm the original soft touch. Someone gives me a sob story and I'll tell them not to worry about it, just pay when they can. There have been a couple of times that the student stepped up to the plate and really became an outstanding martial artist. Unfortunately, every other time, the student acted as though since it didn't cost anything, it wasn't worth anything.

Knowing what a shmuck I am, I'll continue to scholarship students with financial problems and hope more of them benefit.

This is what my instructor told me was his experience. But I really believe the "if I am able to help just one person either physically (self defense) or emotionally (self confidence and success in life)

I think I will also often be the softie.

I teach in a community center and charge $25 a month. The small charge is more to keep students invested in their learning than anything else. All tuition is actually used to buy mats and pads and other learning materials so I'm making no money at all, and that's fine with me.

New students are interviewed by me to make sure we're a good fit for each other. I don't teach punchy-kicky karate, so I want all my students to understand that there is a responsibility they must respect to only use the knowledge I teach them when their lives and well-being are in jeopardy. The interview tends to weed out people who are just bored and are looking for a casual activity to follow.

If someone really could not even afford the $25, I would be willing to waive it. I recently added a newly divorced mother and her teenaged daughter to my class. They're exactly the kind of people who benefit from self-defense training, and so I don't charge them anything since I know money is tight right now for them.

I say, good on all of ya. :asian:

I've solved the problem of who can and who can't pay by not charging anyone (but then, I only teach kids--and most of those are wards of the court, so no parents around anyway--if they even have parents). Someday this may have to change so my expenses get offset, but for now, virtually all students are extremely at risk, so most couldn't afford it. And I have seen a few lives really get turned around. Do some abuse the privilege? Sure. But taking that risk is what leads to the reward of the few who stay for the long haul.

 

[kidswarrior]

Hey Mark I am just like you and know the pain and happiness of being so. One thing I did to try and isolate myself from this was to create a dojo administrator position to deal with this. Still in the end I am a softy and always try to help people out. :shrug:

I knew it! Good on ya, Brian... :asian:

 

[MJS]

Here is a question for the group, stemming out of the "$50/lesson" thread.

Do you have different tuition scales for different students/populations? How do you manage this? Have you seen this be a successful approach? or cause more problems for you then the benefit to the individuals?

I am often torn between those who will most benefit from training (i.e. at risk youth) but may not have disposable income vs. economics of maintaining a full time school.

KempoGuy06 beat me to it. I dont own a school, but I too, have heard of incidents where working to assist in paying the tuition took place. This could range from assisting during a class, office work, cleaning the school, etc.

 

[kidswarrior]

I understand the work to play idea, and agree it's a good one. The problem for some of us is that if there are a large percentage of these students in a class (50-75-90%), then it's a lot of work keeping track of who's done what, who still 'owes', is it working out fairly, etc. The same thing happens if you supervise community service hours. That's why there are organizations who do that full time. So, while I like the idea of students working off their tuition, the implementation can be more trouble than it's worth, imho. But that's just my own experience.

 

[jks9199]

I understand the work to play idea, and agree it's a good one. The problem for some of us is that if there are a large percentage of these students in a class (50-75-90%), then it's a lot of work keeping track of who's done what, who still 'owes', is it working out fairly, etc. The same thing happens if you supervise community service hours. That's why there are organizations who do that full time. So, while I like the idea of students working off their tuition, the implementation can be more trouble than it's worth, imho. But that's just my own experience.

Even with money, it's impossible to be "fair." Is if "fair" that a student at minimum wage has to work several hours to pay the same fee in dollars that a student who's a professional may earn in a single hour? Is an hour working in the library the same value as an hour mowing lawns, or cleaning the gym floor? Should a student who volunteers their professional services as a plumber or carpenter to the school also pay for their classes - or be prorated based on their normal hourly wage? Fair, defined as everyone making the same contribution, is impossible to do. Fair, definied as everyone paying the same fee in money, is more workable -- but, to be truly fair, that means no exceptions can ever be made. But fair, as in everyone earning their training in some way, is workable. Just don't turn it into a balance sheet exercise.

To me, it's the simple matter that students must make some sort of contribution to earn their training. Ordinarily, that's class dues. For students who have reasonable financial hardships, they might pay their dues in other ways by working or community service. Or by helping the teacher prep for class... And I said "reasonable financial hardships" because I think it's a different issue if it's a case where a student is blatantly, wantonly living beyond their means, knowing that I'll work their dues out so that's one thing they don't have to worry about... I'm not going to subsidize someone's training if they need help because they're wasting money or irresponsible. I think they're better served at that point by my "encouraging" them to be more fiscally responsible if they want to train.

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't teach for free. Even if I am working with underpriviledged at risk youth. My reasoning is simple...and that is that I beleive that if a student has to give you something for what you give them, they value it more. They are more likely to make a better committment. Now, there are lots of good ideas above that can make that happen and I've done many of them. The end result is that the students who stay and give something back are far better students because of it.

 

[Marginal]

Here is a question for the group, stemming out of the "$50/lesson" thread.

Do you have different tuition scales for different students/populations? How do you manage this? Have you seen this be a successful approach? or cause more problems for you then the benefit to the individuals?

I am often torn between those who will most benefit from training (i.e. at risk youth) but may not have disposable income vs. economics of maintaining a full time school.

Try to set up a nonprofit org. I've read somewhere (wish I could find the thread) that trading chores for classes etc in a profit making venture tends to run afoul of child labor laws etc.

 

[Hawke]

I came across an article of a martial art studio that got in trouble for using kids to clean up the dojo because some of them could not afford the regual tuition. I did a google search, but could no longer find the article.

Mike Pick as a kid could not afford kenpo lessons, so Ed Parker had him clean the dojo for private lessons (Mike was 10 years old at the time).

In Silat we do "ad hormat" so that students will learn value for the art they study. Doing something of worth to show respect to the art.

 

[Kacey]

I teach at a YMCA, and they provide scholarships for needy students. This doesn't cover the cost of uniforms and pads, but that's something the parents and I usually work out between us; some of them have volunteered to have their students do work for me directly, and then I pay for their gear instead of paying them, usually for yard work. That way it doesn't involve the club directly, and the kids aren't volunteering - they're getting paid, but their pay is going directly to purchase specific items.

 

[tsd]

I say, good on all of ya. :asian:

I've solved the problem of who can and who can't pay by not charging anyone (but then, I only teach kids--and most of those are wards of the court, so no parents around anyway--if they even have parents). Someday this may have to change so my expenses get offset, but for now, virtually all students are extremely at risk, so most couldn't afford it. And I have seen a few lives really get turned around. Do some abuse the privilege? Sure. But taking that risk is what leads to the reward of the few who stay for the long haul.

Interesting....Did you work with an agency (public or private) to set this up? Do you train at their location? Is this set up facilitated by your day job? I have had both success and failure with this approach. The issue is that I want to continue full time (thus be able to teach kids after school) but the lure of getting a day job in corporate America is always beckoning.

 

[kidswarrior]

Interesting....Did you work with an agency (public or private) to set this up? Do you train at their location? Is this set up facilitated by your day job? I have had both success and failure with this approach. The issue is that I want to continue full time (thus be able to teach kids after school) but the lure of getting a day job in corporate America is always beckoning.

My day job is teaching (expelled kids, grades 6-12), so I use that facility two days a week for the kids on site. Then one day a week we have an advanced class at a private school cafeteria. To 'pay' that rent, I teach the school's elementary kids after school on another day. So for the whole thing, I subsidize only the insurance (about $400/yr) and belts ($5 ea.). Gis and patches are on them, but I don't require any till purple belt.

And yes, they end up giving back to the community in many, many ways (I just don't try to control it and record it, unless a kid needs me to, as for community service hours). Some, for example, come on their own time and help me with the elementary kids. Their problems in school stop, and their grades go up. They stop fighting outside of school, and get jobs. They earn their way out of our school and back to district continuation or comprehensive schools. And they start believing they can do things--such as go to college or trade school. It's been very gratifying. But as you said, I couldn't do it without my day job. Maybe you could find a job with a schedule that allowed you to teach a couple of days--even late afternoons/early evenings work for many kids.