The rant thread

[benkyoka]

I believe the guy who is a master of 100 kata will likley lose to the guy who knows 20 pretty well, but also understands timing, distance and space, and has a plan...

Don't you think that a person who is able to master 100 kata would have an excellent understanding of timing, distance and space? That's what the kata are there to teach you.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I've seen quite a few kata collectors (or "librarians," as I like to call them), who could demonstrate a picture perfect kata but didn't understand the underlying strategy enough to make it work outside of a demonstration scenario.

The way I look at it, your taijutsu reflects your personality in everything you do.

 

[Cryozombie]

Don't you think that a person who is able to master 100 kata would have an excellent understanding of timing, distance and space? That's what the kata are there to teach you.

No. Kreth's answer is exactly what I was thinking of. Ive met some of these people as well.

I've seen quite a few kata collectors (or "librarians," as I like to call them), who could demonstrate a picture perfect kata but didn't understand the underlying strategy enough to make it work outside of a demonstration scenario.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

A while ago, I might have been inclined to agree, in regards to some people. Looking back on it now, their execution of kata probably wasn't quite as flawless as I might have thought to begin with.

 

[benkyoka]

A while ago, I might have been inclined to agree, in regards to some people. Looking back on it now, their execution of kata probably wasn't quite as flawless as I might have thought to begin with.

ding!ding! Just because someone 'knows' a kata does not mean they have mastered it. (On a related note; unless you have mastered a particular kata you may not be in a position to judge another's execution of it. As you progress through the kata, and your knowledge of it increases, you are more and more able to evaluate another's execution of it. If you don't believe kata are useful and don't practice them, then you really can't judge).

If you have not learned the strategy, distance, and timing involved in a kata and can't use those outside of a kata, then you haven't mastered anything.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

On a related note; unless you have mastered a particular kata you may not be in a position to judge another's execution of it.

Bad taijutsu has a tendency to manifest itself in either case.

 

[benkyoka]

Bad taijutsu has a tendency to manifest itself in either case.

True. Bad taijutsu looks bad. But without a good knowledge of what constitutes good taijutsu and its useage, mediocre taijutsu can appear 'good'. Mediocrity does not a master make.

 

[Cryozombie]

On a related note; unless you have mastered a particular kata you may not be in a position to judge another's execution of it.

I dunno man... that sounds like a circular argument to me. If you have to master somthing to know what someone who looks as tho they are mastering it has mastered it, is it mastery or your idea of mastery based on the fact you believe you have mastered it?

How do you know when you have mastered it? When you look like someone else doing it? But how do you know that looking like them is mastery? They may not be a master and by your argument you wouldnt know... heck, by that argument we can't even be sure Hatsumi is a master since we are not masters... I mean, some people can say they are and therefore they know he is, but how do we know they are...

I just can't buy that. Sorry. I get where you are coming from, but I think the idea falls short.

In fact, you and Tim and all the rest of you will forgive me, I don't know who most of you are, are you masters? Is your opinion of the subject based on that level of mastery that allow you to make that judgement, or are they just opinions, like mine? because I am certainly NOT a master, and can only make my judgements based on what I have seen, and to an extent, heard from others.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I dunno man... that sounds like a circular argument to me. If you have to master somthing to know what someone who looks as tho they are mastering it has mastered it, is it mastery or your idea of mastery based on the fact you believe you have mastered it?

How do you know when you have mastered it? When you look like someone else doing it? But how do you know that looking like them is mastery? They may not be a master and by your argument you wouldnt know... heck, by that argument we can't even be sure Hatsumi is a master since we are not masters... I mean, some people can say they are and therefore they know he is, but how do we know they are...

I just can't buy that. Sorry. I get where you are coming from, but I think the idea falls short.

In fact, you and Tim and all the rest of you will forgive me, I don't know who most of you are, are you masters? Is your opinion of the subject based on that level of mastery that allow you to make that judgement, or are they just opinions, like mine? because I am certainly NOT a master, and can only make my judgements based on what I have seen, and to an extent, heard from others.

He said "may not".

Anyway, for me evaluating taijutsu is a relatively simple (that's not to say easy) matter of various things being in place. There are these small cues in the overall body language of a person that kind of tips me off whether or not he or she really knows what they're doing. Kind of like how I can tell the difference between real carpenters and professional thieves dressed up as carpenters. :ultracool

 

[benkyoka]

I dunno man... that sounds like a circular argument to me. If you have to master somthing to know what someone who looks as tho they are mastering it has mastered it, is it mastery or your idea of mastery based on the fact you believe you have mastered it?

How do you know when you have mastered it? When you look like someone else doing it? But how do you know that looking like them is mastery? They may not be a master and by your argument you wouldnt know... heck, by that argument we can't even be sure Hatsumi is a master since we are not masters... I mean, some people can say they are and therefore they know he is, but how do we know they are...

I just can't buy that. Sorry. I get where you are coming from, but I think the idea falls short.

In fact, you and Tim and all the rest of you will forgive me, I don't know who most of you are, are you masters? Is your opinion of the subject based on that level of mastery that allow you to make that judgement, or are they just opinions, like mine? because I am certainly NOT a master, and can only make my judgements based on what I have seen, and to an extent, heard from others.

That was quite the post, and I think for the most part I agree with you. My concern seems to be the comments regarding the mastering of kata without being able to apply the lessons of the kata. This seems to be a contradiction.

Kreth stated

've seen quite a few kata collectors (or "librarians," as I like to call them), who could demonstrate a picture perfect kata but didn't understand the underlying strategy enough to make it work outside of a demonstration scenario

Not to pick on you, Kreth but what is there outside of a demonstration scenario in regards to the bujinkan? Sparring, perhaps? But how many dojo do that? Henka, perhaps? But how many times have you seen a person do a henka that does not embody any of the principles of the kata being demonstrated?

How do you feel you can learn proper strategy, distance, timing, etc outside of the kata? By henka? but you need to know (really know) kata before you can take the principles to henka.

The 'kata collector' stigma seems to be often used as an excuse by people who don't know (really know) kata and need to justify what they are doing instead.

but that's just my opinion.

 

[Kreth]

Not to pick on you, Kreth but what is there outside of a demonstration scenario in regards to the bujinkan? Sparring, perhaps? But how many dojo do that? Henka, perhaps? But how many times have you seen a person do a henka that does not embody any of the principles of the kata being demonstrated?

Both of the above can point out a lack of understanding. I've also had people "freeze" during kata training because my attack wasn't exactly what they were used to.

How do you feel you can learn proper strategy, distance, timing, etc outside of the kata? By henka? but you need to know (really know) kata before you can take the principles to henka.

I don't believe I suggested "throwing out" kata, I just commented that there are many in the Bujinkan who can perform a kata technically correct without understanding it. It's kind of like a guitarist memorizing a Clapton solo. It sounds great, but what about improvisation, and developing your own sound?

The 'kata collector' stigma seems to be often used as an excuse by people who don't know (really know) kata and need to justify what they are doing instead.

but that's just my opinion.

I call 'em as I see 'em. :idunno:

 

[Vonbek]

He said "may not".

Anyway, for me evaluating taijutsu is a relatively simple (that's not to say easy) matter of various things being in place. There are these small cues in the overall body language of a person that kind of tips me off whether or not he or she really knows what they're doing. Kind of like how I can tell the difference between real carpenters and professional thieves dressed up as carpenters. :ultracool

Can you please explain further what are these cues?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Both of the above can point out a lack of understanding. I've also had people "freeze" during kata training because my attack wasn't exactly what they were used to.

Which leads me to wonder if what you were doing was actually kata per se...?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Can you please explain further what are these cues?

To begin with, anything that defies my sense of logic.

 

[Kreth]

Which leads me to wonder if what you were doing was actually kata per se...?

I've been doing this for a while, I think I know when I'm doing kata. Now if they were used to an unrealistic attack...

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I've been doing this for a while, I think I know when I'm doing kata. Now if they were used to an unrealistic attack...

Your definition of a realistic attack.

 

[Kreth]

Your definition of a realistic attack.

I'll take my definition over what I see coming from the Bujinkan/New Age dojo out there. Why bother performing the kata if the attack would never land in the first place?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Why bother performing the kata if the attack would never land in the first place?

Did I say that attacks aren't supposed to hit home?

 

[Kreth]

Did I say that attacks aren't supposed to hit home?

No, you were busy questioning my training methods, when, to the best of my knowledge, we've never trained together...

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

"Questioning" perhaps isn't the proper term. Why don't you let me know what you believe constitutes a "realistic" attack, then? Realistic as in

a) uncommitted attack by trained martial artist

b) committed attack by trained martial artist

c) uncommitted attack by untrained person

d) committed attack by untrained person

or what?