The rant thread
- Thread starter Don Roley
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Carol Kaur said:MESA Boogie Mark III Combo. A damn fine tube guitar amp, if I may say so. With a Celestion, not an EV, and EL34's on the outside.
8-()***********
Dale Seago
Black Belt
Technopunk said:
Hmmm. . .Well, given the meaning of the root word shinobu as "to hide or conceal", perhaps. . .
A concealment of ninja?
Or if you want to go with a certain site's concepts, . . .
An outflipping of ninja?
Don Roley said:
Don,
Why would we want to do that.
Rubber Tanto
Orange Belt
Well my son has a teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle comic where a "plague of ninja" sweep across the rooftop...does that make it the official term?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #70
Rubber Tanto said:
Ok, another subject for a rant.
Rubber Tanto is asking about people that teach at a fifth dan Bujinkan level because they are fifth dan.
Well, I have seen stuff from people that were clearly qualified for their rank who taught stuff that was not fifth dan Bujinkan level because they were not teaching Bujinkan at all.
Someone may be fully qualified to teach the kihon happo and stuff like that, but what can you do if they teach other stuff and yet still call it Bujinkan?
People are taking stuff from BJJ, FMA and otther arts and teaching it to their students while letting them think it is Bujinkan. That is just plain wrong. I have actually had people try to justify this type of thing by asking a, "well, have you ever heard Hatsumi say you should not do a jumping spinning back kick to the head" type of question.
Hey, there is nothing wrong with other arts. But they are other arts. They do things differently for damn good reasons. It is like trying to figure out which is better, a mini-van, a Ferrari or a 18 wheel truck. The answer is it depends on what you are trying to do. And you can't try to get everything from all three. If you want to haul a lot of cargo you have to give up on being as fast as the ferrari- period. Everything from the tires up are different because they fill a very different need from the ground up.
So sometimes when people mix arts together it looks like Frankenstien's monster with some of the pieces working against others. Some people can pull it off if they are skilled in everything. But it is plain wrong to take FMA knife fighting and pass it off as Japanese. If you teach FMA, tell your students you are FMA. Don't let them think that what they are doing is Bujinkan if it is not.
Don Roley said:
Plus there is no chain-of-custody for one's training in the other arts. Personally I would want to learn want to learn FMAs from an Escrimador ... not from a Kenpo instructor or a sensei in the Buj.
Without the background, there is no way for the student to tell to tell if the instructor has proper training and teaching experience in the other arts, or if they are simply passing off some hacked up tricks he picked up from his drinking buddies. It doesn't do the instructor, the student, or the art any good.
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
Don Roley said:
Now, I think you know I would never look to other arts to find something I would perceive as "missing" within the Bujinkan. However, at the risk of repeating myself - if those hip bridging techniques in the What Is Martial Arts video had never been demonstrated by uncle H, would anyone have assumed that you can do that and still claim that what you're doing is Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #73
Carol Kaur said:
It is not just that. I have run across a lot of people who seem to fit Marc MacYoung's definition of martial arts pirates. http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/pirates.htm
irate4: And I have no compassion for them. Heck, compassion is not a Roley word.But I come down hard on people who call what they do 'ninjutsu' when they don't really know what the subject it. If someone does a spinning back kick they would never dare call it aikido. And if they dropped stick and knife fighting from Kali due to it being "outdated" (don't laugh- I have seen it) and yet still call it Kali then real Kali players would be on them like Clinton on an intern. But people seem to think that anything they do is ninjutsu. And thus they can use the term to describe what they do.
Let me be clear..... I have never met Brian VanCise, never seen his videos and never talked to anyone about him. I have no idea of how good he is. But I can tell that people walking into his school will know that he has experience in Bujinkan but what he teaches is called Defensive Tactics and not Bujinkan. So if they see something in the Bujinkan that differs from what they learned in his class, they know the reason. He is not teaching something he learned from someone outside of the Bujinkan and letting others think it was Bujinkan. Contrast that with some guy I just saw on Youtube who claims to be doing Bujinkan in Texas (but not under Luke Molitor- the best Bujinkan sword teacher in America IMO) who did some sword stuff that did not impress me overly (cut tatami, not coke bottles) and did a very complicated and flashy noto that I have never seen a Japanese Bujinkan shihan do.
Oh, and Brian keeps coming to Japan to learn more about Bujinkan. That makes him different from 99 percent of the guys who claim to teach their own style of ninjutsu. And he does not even claim to teach ninjutsu, he teaches Defenseive Tactics. He keeps trying to improve himself. And his students know that if they learn a movement from him that there might be someone in FMA or Bujinkan that may give them more insight into the move.
I have been accused of being a Japan Elitist. It's a fair cop IMO. But it just seems a natural thing to me that the best people in the art of ninjutsu are still living in Japan with a lot they can teach. If you claim to be teaching the art, then you need to be getting the most and best instruction you can in the subject for the sake of your students. When people like Brian who don't even claim to be teaching Bujinkan or ninjutsu keep showing up to learn more from Hatsumi, what kind of respect can I have for someone who declares himself the head of his own style of ninjutsu but never challenges himself to come train with someone like Hatsumi?
inky1: We all need to get better. Someone who claims to be teaching ninjutsu needs to always try to get better in ninjutsu from people that know more than them. I know guys who have left the Bujinkan and gone to other arts. They still try to get better in their new art and I can respect that. What I can't respect is people that claim to teach something and yet won't go to the best teachers in the subject and make the types of patches MacYoung talks about to cover their lack of knowledge while putting the blame on the art.
I hope that made sense.
Hey Don,
Thanks for the kind words! In my opinion if someone wants to train/teach Budo Taijutsu then one most go to the source and learn the moves as Soke teaches them. If one is to teach Budo Taijutsu then should you not teach it as it has been taught to you. Within that of course there is a lot of free play through various henka so you can really explore but you need the foundation in order to do that.
(and that can take many years)
The best people in Budo Taijutsu are in Japan! So I would encourage everyone to go and enjoy Soke and the Shihan's unique Budo in person!That does not mean that there are not really good teachers throughout the world, just that the very best are in Japan. If you cannot make it to Japan regularly, then train with Shidoshi and Shihan that go regularly or those that live in Japan and make trips back to the states or your respective country. Shihan's Legare, Pierce, Seago, Martin, Asuncion, Molitar, Young and many, many more. (sorry if I missed anybody)
Really, in training in any martial system whether Budo Taijutsu, Modern Arnis, Silat, etc. If you want to practice that particular art then you need to seek out qualified instruction from a teacher in that art. In Budo Taijutsu the pinnacle would be Hatsumi Soke. In Modern Arnis one of the many Master's, Senior Master's, Master of Tapi Tapi's, Datu's. In BJJ you would be blessed to train with Helio, Rorion, Rickson or Royce. (plus many other's)
Most importantly though is that no matter your skill level or your ability in any art you need to train and continue to have people teach you. We are all trying to improve ourselves and everyone needs to have somone critique them.
As to those that want to just teach anything and everything and heap it into a big basket and call in Ninjutsu and not seek out training from the source. Well, we cannot stop them but I for one sure am not going to bless what they are doing.
Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
Thanks for the kind words! In my opinion if someone wants to train/teach Budo Taijutsu then one most go to the source and learn the moves as Soke teaches them. If one is to teach Budo Taijutsu then should you not teach it as it has been taught to you. Within that of course there is a lot of free play through various henka so you can really explore but you need the foundation in order to do that.
The best people in Budo Taijutsu are in Japan! So I would encourage everyone to go and enjoy Soke and the Shihan's unique Budo in person!That does not mean that there are not really good teachers throughout the world, just that the very best are in Japan. If you cannot make it to Japan regularly, then train with Shidoshi and Shihan that go regularly or those that live in Japan and make trips back to the states or your respective country. Shihan's Legare, Pierce, Seago, Martin, Asuncion, Molitar, Young and many, many more. (sorry if I missed anybody)
Really, in training in any martial system whether Budo Taijutsu, Modern Arnis, Silat, etc. If you want to practice that particular art then you need to seek out qualified instruction from a teacher in that art. In Budo Taijutsu the pinnacle would be Hatsumi Soke. In Modern Arnis one of the many Master's, Senior Master's, Master of Tapi Tapi's, Datu's. In BJJ you would be blessed to train with Helio, Rorion, Rickson or Royce. (plus many other's)
Most importantly though is that no matter your skill level or your ability in any art you need to train and continue to have people teach you. We are all trying to improve ourselves and everyone needs to have somone critique them.
As to those that want to just teach anything and everything and heap it into a big basket and call in Ninjutsu and not seek out training from the source. Well, we cannot stop them but I for one sure am not going to bless what they are doing.
Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
Don Roley said:It is not just that. I have run across a lot of people who seem to fit Marc MacYoung's definition of martial arts pirates. http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/pirates.htm
But I come down hard on people who call what they do 'ninjutsu' when they don't really know what the subject it. If someone does a spinning back kick they would never dare call it aikido. And if they dropped stick and knife fighting from Kali due to it being "outdated" (don't laugh- I have seen it) and yet still call it Kali then real Kali players would be on them like Clinton on an intern. But people seem to think that anything they do is ninjutsu. And thus they can use the term to describe what they do.
Let me be clear..... I have never met Brian VanCise, never seen his videos and never talked to anyone about him. I have no idea of how good he is. But I can tell that people walking into his school will know that he has experience in Bujinkan but what he teaches is called Defensive Tactics and not Bujinkan. So if they see something in the Bujinkan that differs from what they learned in his class, they know the reason. He is not teaching something he learned from someone outside of the Bujinkan and letting others think it was Bujinkan. Contrast that with some guy I just saw on Youtube who claims to be doing Bujinkan in Texas (but not under Luke Molitor- the best Bujinkan sword teacher in America IMO) who did some sword stuff that did not impress me overly (cut tatami, not coke bottles) and did a very complicated and flashy noto that I have never seen a Japanese Bujinkan shihan do.
Oh, and Brian keeps coming to Japan to learn more about Bujinkan. That makes him different from 99 percent of the guys who claim to teach their own style of ninjutsu. And he does not even claim to teach ninjutsu, he teaches Defenseive Tactics. He keeps trying to improve himself. And his students know that if they learn a movement from him that there might be someone in FMA or Bujinkan that may give them more insight into the move.
I have been accused of being a Japan Elitist. It's a fair cop IMO. But it just seems a natural thing to me that the best people in the art of ninjutsu are still living in Japan with a lot they can teach. If you claim to be teaching the art, then you need to be getting the most and best instruction you can in the subject for the sake of your students. When people like Brian who don't even claim to be teaching Bujinkan or ninjutsu keep showing up to learn more from Hatsumi, what kind of respect can I have for someone who declares himself the head of his own style of ninjutsu but never challenges himself to come train with someone like Hatsumi?
We all need to get better. Someone who claims to be teaching ninjutsu needs to always try to get better in ninjutsu from people that know more than them. I know guys who have left the Bujinkan and gone to other arts. They still try to get better in their new art and I can respect that. What I can't respect is people that claim to teach something and yet won't go to the best teachers in the subject and make the types of patches MacYoung talks about to cover their lack of knowledge while putting the blame on the art.
I hope that made sense.
Don,
Here is the question you have to ask yourself about being a Japanese Elitist. If Hatsumi and the other seniors of the art that you respect as the best were in the US, would you still say that this group of people are the ones to train with and not some of those who staid behind.
My guess is that you would still say the quality of those you reference no matter where they are, would be the ones to go train with. It just so happens that those you reference live in Japan and Love Japan and most likely would never leave Japan.
So, I do not think you are Japanese Elitist. I just think you have an opinion (* educated opinion per your experience *) on who is the best and they just happen to be Japanese from Japam who do a Japanese Art.
I also respect Brian V's training method, for he is willing to train with all and learn, but does not try to pass it off as something else.
Best regards
OP
- Thread Starter
- #76
Brian R. VanCise said:
When I say the best people live in Japan, I am talking about Hatsumi, Noguchi and others who have been training in this art longer than most of us have been alive.
It just seems natural to me that you seek out the best instruction you can. If you can't make it to Japan to train with the best, you seek out someone who is better than you. And part of being better is trying to improve yourself so if they are not going to Japan, they are going to someone who does. So at some point there should be a link to Japan.
But I have seen people that do train in Japan, or at least have, teach things from other arts and tried to claim it was ninjutsu. I remember doing one demo for someone (a nutcase who left the Bujinkan after some heavy encouragement) and watching him do his stuff for the crowd. He did some BJJ and kept telling the crowd it was Bujinkan ninjutsu. I was standing behind Nagase and Someya as he was doing this and the conversation they had was interesting to say the least.
If what you are teaching is not Bujinkan, don't call it Bujinkan. That seems simple enough to me. Why should we worry if a fifth dan won't teach well when we don't even know if what he teaches is Bujinkan or not. We would need a strong, centralized orginization to police what everyone is teaching to prevent that type of thing. And I do not see that being possible. Those that step forward to try to police the Bujinkan in Hatsumi's name are the subject for another rant of mine.
Don Roley said:
Yes Don, we are definately on the same page. I referance the best teachers in Japan as Soke, Noguchi, Nagato, Someya, Shiraishi, Nagase, Senno, Oguri, etc. My wording may have been a little off and in rereading it I realized that. I referanced the other's that I mentioned as individuals that live or travel back to Japan to learn and then travel back to the States and teach regularly. So if you cannot make it to Japan to train with Soke and the Japanese Shihan then train with those that live there or visit and then travel back here to the States. (or around the world) Hopefully that is worded a little better. Anyways, we are on the same page.
Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
I think it's common sense. The best instructors for a Japanese system are likely to be in Japan, similarly with Krav Maga (Israel), Sambo (former Soviet Union), and BJJ (Brazil).
OP
- Thread Starter
- #79
Kreth said:
But you know, there are people that actually tell others that they are all you need to learn a Japanese art. I can point to people in Australia, Texas and other places to show you folks that say they don't need to learn anymore from Japan to teach their Japanese art and you don't need to do anything but go to train with them.
Maybe in a few decades that may be the case. But right now, the guys who have trained the longest in the art with the best understanding of what is being said are all Japanese. If some people go to Japan, learn the language and start learning the art, then someday when all the guys like Noguchi are dead they may just be the ones with the most experience in the art after a few decades. But not today.
And yet there are folks that claim that there is nothing left to learn from Hatsumi and the shihan and go their own way. Some of them still send in their dues every year and give lip service to learning. And some of them even come to Japan to get their cards stamped, "see- here is a picture of me training in Japan!" But these guys are doing more wing chun than Bujinkan when I look at them.
This art deserves better.
Dale Seago
Black Belt
Don Roley said:
I'm guessing the latter is this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=HonGyakku
His profile does say he's affiliated with the Bujinkan Spiritwarriors Dojo (http://www.spiritwarriors.com/index1.htm), which would make him a student of Jay Hardy; and he doesn't mention any other martial art (sword or otherwise), leaving people to assume that what he's doing in his videos is Bujinkan.
I've only watched the first 35 seconds of the first video, and it was more than enough to tell me that it's not only NOT Bujinkan -- it would be a very poor representation of any authentic Japanese sword school. I can't help wondering whether Hardy sensei has any idea that someone claiming to be his student is behaving in such a publicly irresponsible manner.
