The Proper Horse Stance?

Kung Fu Wang

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I'm brand new to karate and am wondering about the feet forward. It feels unnatural to me. How long does it take for this to go away? :)
What do you mean "feet forward"?

Usually if your body goes toward one extreme, you may need to push your body to the other extreme so your body will come back to the center.

For example, if you have this problem:

hump-back.jpg


You will need to do more of this:

bend-back.png
 
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BonnieBot

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lol Thanks for the visuals. "Feet forward" as in at a 45° angle. I "naturally" want to have them facing outward a tad. I get what you're saying though, so I'll just keep practicing and look forward to it feeling natural!
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Actually this is incorrect. The placement of the feet belies the anatomical distinction in the foot being naturally curved inward and not straight as portrayed in the drawing. This, when the stance is performed correctly, will cause the feet to "appear" to be turned in when they are parallel. The drawing makes no such distinction.
Are you saying that Sifu Woo did not have a correct horse stance?
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Prof. Chow was SGM Parker's kenpo instructor and that is really were he got his base material from. After coming to the US and settling down in Pasadena he looked heavily into the CMA's and Ark Wong was one of those he studied with. Also, the link posted by Kembudo-Kai Kempoka is actually from the person that helped Parker create many of the early forms. If you click on the links Master Woo actually tells the story, but only refers to Parker as "an instructor from Pasadena" in reference to their work together including "Secrets of Chinese Karate".
That is because Sifu Woo and EP had a falling out over a book deal.
 

wolfeyes2323

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So it took me a while to ask this question because, quite frankly I couldn't figure out my Kenpo teacher's lineage for the longest time (other than his teacher.) It turned out to be William Chow.

In any case, I needed to be sure since it seems like some techniques may differ slighty, depending on who they were learned from. That said, what is the proper alignment/positioning for the horse stance? I recall it being low to the ground, but with the feet probably about 1-1/2 body with apart, and facing slightly outward. Is this correct?
As far as I understand, No , that is not correct. actually the stance you describe , has several names in Okinawan karate, Shiko-dachi (usually low stance ), Soto-hachi-ji-dachi (a little higher with feet a bit closer together), in both cases the back is allowed to arch naturally and is aligned but not straight. A horse stance is Kiba-dachi the feet are straight forward, the back is straightened by un-tilting the pelvis. This kiba-dachi is the stance most often used kata like Naihanchi/tekki while Shiko dachi is most often used in kata of Goju-ryu, and Shorin-ryu (other than naihanchi), Shikodachi is often most used in Kobudo. Most styles of Kung fu however use a horse stance , or what the Okinawans would call Kiba-dachi (straight feet and back)
 

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As far as I understand, No , that is not correct. actually the stance you describe , has several names in Okinawan karate, Shiko-dachi (usually low stance ), Soto-hachi-ji-dachi (a little higher with feet a bit closer together), in both cases the back is allowed to arch naturally and is aligned but not straight. A horse stance is Kiba-dachi the feet are straight forward, the back is straightened by un-tilting the pelvis. This kiba-dachi is the stance most often used kata like Naihanchi/tekki while Shiko dachi is most often used in kata of Goju-ryu, and Shorin-ryu (other than naihanchi), Shikodachi is often most used in Kobudo. Most styles of Kung fu however use a horse stance , or what the Okinawans would call Kiba-dachi (straight feet and back)
You are absolutely correct sir. What many call a horse stance is more akin to a "sumo" stance or some variance. The problem with defining a "Horse Stance" from the Chinese perspective as well as any other is in anatomically defining what it means to have your feet "straight" or parallel. For the purposes of a horse stance, anatomically the feet are naturally curved so relatively speaking only the outside of the foot can be used as a measure and perspective. The stance requires this perspective in order to be anatomically sound, efficient, and to support upper body strength and Marriage of Platforms.
 

geezer

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I don't believe I made mention of anyone in particular in my answer. I was speaking of a horse stance and its correct posture.
In the first martial art I trained (essentially a style of Kempo) we were also taught that a proper horse stance should have the outsides of the feet parallel and pointing forward.

This was physically impossible for me since I have a congenital bone fusion in both ankles, severely reducing range of movement in the foot and locking my feet in a splayed out or "duck-footed" position like Charlie Chaplin. When I squat down into a deep horse, my feet point outward. If I try to twist them to point forward that causes severe torque on my knees. So after a lot of failed effort, I finally settled on the splay footed "sumo" stance you describe.

A few years later in '79, I took up Wing Chun and have pursued it ever since. Ironically, I had less trouble with the pigeon-toed Wing Chun stance since the knees rotate inwards with the feet. So, I was able to compensate by working on rotational flexibility in the hips. However, when I do the Wing Chun Long Pole, which requires a deep horse, I have to bastardize the stance and revert to my old "sumo" stance.

Still, in the WC pole form, or even occasionally practicing old Kempo techiques I seem to be stable and generate good power from this modified "sumo" horse.

So my question is why, other than for esthetic reasons, is the traditional stance with forward-pointing feet so emphasized in some arts? Is there really any functional reason? What is the Kempo perspective on this?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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So my question is why, other than for esthetic reasons, is the traditional stance with forward-pointing feet so emphasized in some arts? Is there really any functional reason? What is the Kempo perspective on this?
When you bend your legs and then straight your legs, your body will move toward the direction that your feet are point to. If your use

1. Outward horse (such as the Sumo stance) - left foot point to NW and right foot point NE,
1. Inward horse (such as the WC stance) - left foot point to NE and right foot point NW,

when your straight your legs, your body will move toward N, but pressure will be put on both of your knees. In the long run, this will damage your knee joints.

If you use either Sumo stance or WC stance to drill your hip throw, you will definitely destroy your both knee joints.

This is one example of bad stance. It's not clear which direction that he wants his power to generate into.

bad_Taiji_stance.jpg
 
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geezer

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When you bend your legs and then straight your legs, your body will move toward the direction that your feet are point to. If your use

1. Outward horse (such as the Sumo stance) - left foot point to NW and right foot point NE,
1. Inward horse (such as the WC stance) - left foot point to NE and right foot point NW,

when your straight your legs, your body will move toward N, but pressure will be put on both of your knees. In the long run, this will damage your knee joints.

If you use either Sumo stance or WC stance to drill your hip throw, you will definitely destroy your both knee joints.

This is one example of bad stance. It's not clear which direction that he wants his power to generate into.

View attachment 27367
This is only true if your feet naturally point the same direction as your knees. Most people's do. Mine do not. And while my particular condition is uncommon, being "duck footed" or "splay-footed" is not uncommon. For people with this structure, your "rule" does not apply, and in fact can damage the knees!

Yet I had one instructor who stubbornly insisted that the the human foot always aligns with the direction of the knee and tried to force me into the traditional stance, nearly wrecking my knee joint. When I showed him my problem and explained my medical history, he insisted that I was the one being stubborn.

I came to the conclusion that while he was a great practitioner, he was a crappy teacher or coach for me. I respectfully stopped training with him. A shame really. But your health must come first. ;)
 

Wing Woo Gar

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I don't believe I made mention of anyone in particular in my answer. I was speaking of a horse stance and its correct posture.
Sorry, text never sounds the same spoken aloud. I meant to imply my question in regard to that particular picture diagram to which you were referring, respectfully.
 

_Simon_

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This is only true if your feet naturally point the same direction as your knees. Most people's do. Mine do not. And while my particular condition is uncommon, being "duck footed" or "splay-footed" is not uncommon. For people with this structure, your "rule" does not apply, and in fact can damage the knees!

Yet I had one instructor who stubbornly insisted that the the human foot always aligns with the direction of the knee and tried to force me into the traditional stance, nearly wrecking my knee joint. When I showed him my problem and explained my medical history, he insisted that I was the one being stubborn.

I came to the conclusion that while he was a great practitioner, he was a crappy teacher or coach for me. I respectfully stopped training with him. A shame really. But your health must come first. ;)
Yep I've heard that advice too, that the knee should aaaaaalways travel in the direction that the foot is pointing, but as I've said before my feet are the same as yours. I never knew how to tackle that, but generally angle my feet out slightly.

To me it's less about the feet to be focused on, but that the knees aren't caving in. Knees can still be "inside" or under the body with the feet outside the knees, but as long as they are aligned, and with no excess pressure on the medial aspect of the knee.

Like Sanchin dachi (3-point stance) isn't so much about the angle of the feet or the knee as it is about the slight internal rotation of the front hip, and feeling the strength of that structure. We were always taught to really bend the knees inwards, but I don't think that's really the idea or the focus...
 

Doc

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When you bend your legs and then straight your legs, your body will move toward the direction that your feet are point to. If your use

1. Outward horse (such as the Sumo stance) - left foot point to NW and right foot point NE,
1. Inward horse (such as the WC stance) - left foot point to NE and right foot point NW,

when your straight your legs, your body will move toward N, but pressure will be put on both of your knees. In the long run, this will damage your knee joints.

If you use either Sumo stance or WC stance to drill your hip throw, you will definitely destroy your both knee joints.

This is one example of bad stance. It's not clear which direction that he wants his power to generate into.

View attachment 27367
The pictured posture is not incorrect. It is perfectly fine when you understand Martial Posture.
 

Doc

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This is only true if your feet naturally point the same direction as your knees. Most people's do. Mine do not. And while my particular condition is uncommon, being "duck footed" or "splay-footed" is not uncommon. For people with this structure, your "rule" does not apply, and in fact can damage the knees!

Yet I had one instructor who stubbornly insisted that the the human foot always aligns with the direction of the knee and tried to force me into the traditional stance, nearly wrecking my knee joint. When I showed him my problem and explained my medical history, he insisted that I was the one being stubborn.

I came to the conclusion that while he was a great practitioner, he was a crappy teacher or coach for me. I respectfully stopped training with him. A shame really. But your health must come first. ;)
While anatomically correct postures are usually dictated and dedicated to particular actions or functions, there are always anatomical anomalies in nature that cannot be ignored. While "normal" people may find it hard to believe, the direction the feet point does not always line up with the knees, and as such adjustments and allowances must be made for anatomical discrepancies.
 

Doc

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When you bend your legs and then straight your legs, your body will move toward the direction that your feet are point to. If your use

1. Outward horse (such as the Sumo stance) - left foot point to NW and right foot point NE,
1. Inward horse (such as the WC stance) - left foot point to NE and right foot point NW,

when your straight your legs, your body will move toward N, but pressure will be put on both of your knees. In the long run, this will damage your knee joints.

If you use either Sumo stance or WC stance to drill your hip throw, you will definitely destroy your both knee joints.

This is one example of bad stance. It's not clear which direction that he wants his power to generate into.

View attachment 27367
Stances are not created for aesthetic reasons in the Traditional Chinese Arts, and that includes the Horse Stance. The position of the body in its entirety constitutes posture, not just the feet. The alignment of the feet properly has a profound impact on available upper body strength, and an improper Horse Stance can demonstrably be shown to take away available upper body strength in the arms as well as compromise the vertical plane of the structure.
 

Gerry Seymour

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This is only true if your feet naturally point the same direction as your knees. Most people's do. Mine do not. And while my particular condition is uncommon, being "duck footed" or "splay-footed" is not uncommon. For people with this structure, your "rule" does not apply, and in fact can damage the knees!

Yet I had one instructor who stubbornly insisted that the the human foot always aligns with the direction of the knee and tried to force me into the traditional stance, nearly wrecking my knee joint. When I showed him my problem and explained my medical history, he insisted that I was the one being stubborn.

I came to the conclusion that while he was a great practitioner, he was a crappy teacher or coach for me. I respectfully stopped training with him. A shame really. But your health must come first. ;)
My primary instructor focuses on the direction of the feet (in front stance, "feet parallel, pointed forward). My feet don't align with my knees, so I learned to focus on the direction of the knee. So when I teach students, I teach them in "knee" terms (in front stance, "knees pointed on parallel path if you bend them"). The direction of the knee is what affects structure in most cases.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Sorry, text never sounds the same spoken aloud. I meant to imply my question in regard to that particular picture diagram to which you were referring, respectfully.
That diagram is no longer at that link, apparently. In any case, he referred to an issue with the drawing, didn't he? Or did I misread that?
 

Wing Woo Gar

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That diagram is no longer at that link, apparently. In any case, he referred to an issue with the drawing, didn't he? Or did I misread that?
I have copies of all of that. I have all of Sifu James Wing Woo’s writings and drawings and diagrams. I believe he (doc) was commenting on the diagram of horse stance. These diagrams show direction of internal torques in a static horse stance. In any case, there is no such thing as standard issue when it comes to human body parts. Varus/valgus knee joint angles vary widely. people with a wider hip will typically display a more pronounced medial apex of the knee joint, which may necessitate more attention to the supination of the foot to adequately center the load distribution. Part of why the Chinese classic is titled the “art” of stacking and folding.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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The pictured posture is not incorrect. It is perfectly fine when you understand Martial Posture.
The only issues I see here is that arms are too high for single whip, and feet are double weighted. All weight should be on one leg here. But, again, results are what really count. This is why pictures of martial arts usually dont look good. It doesn’t mean much because we have all had moments of learning where we do things incorrectly.
 

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