horse stance?

[drummingman]

is the main stance in wing chun the horse stance? i think that is the stance where both feet are about shoulder width apart with the fists ready at the side palms up.
i ask about this stance because it seems like if a person is in this stance they are really planted to the ground and it would be hard for them to move out of the line of a punch or kick.this makes me think that this stance is not a practical.if this stance is just for training and not used in real fighting then i ask why train in this stance,why not just train in the stance that you are going to fight in?
i also seem to remember reading somewhere that bruce lee said that the horse stance is not paractical,am i wrong?

 

[tshadowchaser]

Not a student so only my thoughts

It seems that the hourse stance is a preferred stance for many excercises but the standing almost natural stance is the preferred stance for combat

 

[bcbernam777]

i ask about this stance because it seems like if a person is in this stance they are really planted to the ground

And this is the precise reason that we train the stance, what is the use of moving if you cant maintain a strong sense of balance and equalibruim? In addition to this the WC player generates his power and defensive strength through an absolute and fully alighned biomechanical position, which is what the "yee jee kim yeung ma" affords.

and it would be hard for them to move out of the line of a punch or kick.this makes me think that this stance is not a practical.

Not at all, it is extremly easy once You have trained in the stance and how t move in the stance hence the Chum Kui, which is the second form. The movements are measured, balanced, and allow the practicioner to retain their rooting power THROUGHOUT the engagement (again their source of power, and the foundation of all defensive/offensive capability)

Beside all of this the goal is not to continually avoid the kick or punch, but to intercept it, and to utilise the contact to bridge the gap, and enter beyond the oponants confined area. Once you understand the ideals and goals of Wing Chun the stance actually makes sense

if this stance is just for training and not used in real fighting then i ask why train in this stance,why not just train in the stance that you are going to fight in?

Stance training the way that we do is primaraly for energy development and proper biomechanic development, we take this with us wherever we go, as my Sifu says "whether your sitting, or standing or walking the SLT is always with you"

i also seem to remember reading somewhere that bruce lee said that the horse stance is not paractical,am i wrong?

If you look very closely at the stance he uses in JKD it utilises principles from the YJKYM

 

[Ali Rahim]

Not a student so only my thoughts

It seems that the hourse stance is a preferred stance for many excercises but the standing almost natural stance is the preferred stance for combat

You are only as good as your stance; always keep your stance (chum) when moving your feet. Some may say; “how can we keep sunken while striking our opponent”, simply by learning how to make the feet follow the hands while bridge contact is made, this way you can start to understand how to maintain a low center of gravity when moving or attacking, while in your stance.

There are many drills that can help you with this ideal; you can even make some up on your own, just by staying with true wing chun principle. This way you can learn how to move just as fast as anyone else can, with control, balance and a low center of gravity, hence with real wing chun power. Within your offensive position or attack, all of your power comes from the floor. Which brings truth to the saying; “you are only as good as your stance.”

Ali.

 

[monji112000]

is the main stance in wing chun the horse stance?

this really relative to who you ask.
Why?
people learn and tend to gravitate to techniques and fixed positions to fit what they want and personality.
The "traditional Wing Chun Stance" as some people call it, isn't the Wing Chun stance, because such a stance doesn't exist. When you get into a fight you can't assume you can setup to a preset position. Also you may want to vary things to force him or bait him. For example keeping you hands high to open up for him to hit you in the body. Also after you finish a technique you will not be square to resume the stance.. so you must fight from where you were at the last movement.
I believe a better question would be Why is this stance adopted in the forms? Why is it so prevalent in basic practicing?
Because it shows in the most basic way how to have good structure, how to lower your center of gravity, how to allow the force to travel down ect..
This horse and its principles permeate throughout Wing Chun. So its a basic fundamental principle, and without it you would be avoiding a major aspect of the Style. JMO

i also seem to remember reading somewhere that bruce lee said that the horse stance is not practical,am i wrong?

Its a false sense of reality to expect someone else to say if something is practical for you at a given moment. I would assume Bruce tested what he understood as a good Horse and then decided in the end to use more of a boxing stance and to generate power that way. What are his reasons? How did he go about proving this to himself? Does his conclusions apply all the time? To allbody-types? To every persons speed? Or to every opponent?


The fact is that you have to test what you do and see if its “practical” for you. I believe there are advantages to his method of stance, and of course advantages to the Wing Chun Horse.


What do I use? The Wing Chun horse. Have I proven it to be effective, for my personal advancement YES.

Does that mean that I can't fix things that I learn are wrong? NO I do that all the time.
its not really a fixed stance, its a idea. How you apply the idea will vary from person to person and situation to situation

 

[Ali Rahim]

i also seem to remember reading somewhere that bruce lee said that the horse stance is not paractical,am i wrong?

That is an interesting statement considering that “Bruce Lee” himself only completed the Sil Lim Tao system. Never giving the stance a fair shot (not enough time to understand it.) That’s what kills me the most,, some saying you must use trial and error of all of the wing chun techniques, that’s all you really need, to see what works or what don’t work. When they do that, they have no ideal that they are literally tossing wing chun right out of the window…

By doing that (trial and error) means that you never had or gave yourself a true start in the wing chun system,, by coming in the door eliminating things is always counterproductive to true understanding…

That’s like reading two chapters of a book, putting it down and retelling it, like you read the full story. So one lie leads up to another,, “wing chun don’t work”,, “you need to use or have some other skills to supplement it”,, so on and so forth…

Ali.

 

[PeaceWarrior]

That is an interesting statement considering that “Bruce Lee” himself only completed the Sil Lim Tao system. Never giving the stance a fair shot (not enough time to understand it.) That’s what kills me the most,, some saying you must use trial and error of all of the wing chun techniques, that’s all you really need, to see what works or what don’t work. When they do that, they have no ideal that they are literally tossing wing chun right out of the window…

By doing that (trial and error) means that you never had or gave yourself a true start in the wing chun system,, by coming in the door eliminating things is always counterproductive to true understanding…

That’s like reading two chapters of a book, putting it down and retelling it, like you read the full story. So one lie leads up to another,, “wing chun don’t work”,, “you need to use or have some other skills to supplement it”,, so on and so forth…

Ali.

Very well said

 

[monji112000]

By doing that (trial and error) means that you never had or gave yourself a true start in the wing chun system,, by coming in the door eliminating things is always counterproductive to true understanding…

That’s like reading two chapters of a book, putting it down and retelling it, like you read the full story. So one lie leads up to another,, “wing chun don’t work”,, “you need to use or have some other skills to supplement it”,, so on and so forth…

I don't know the extent of exactly what Bruce learned so its impossible to say. Some people say he learned more and others less.. its really not a factual point.

BUT, the method of trial and testing a idea or technique is something Ip Man himself promoted. This is a concept that its a vital component to every art. Yes you must first grasp what you are trying to implement.. but
your analogy isn't representative.

its like reading a chapter in a math book, and then trying the math problems at the end. If you don't see how it works in real life, then you don't really posses the skill. You have to acquire experience to gain practical knowledge. You have to find what works for you, or you will just be copying someone blindly.

the reason why you have so many people who can't apply Wing Chun is because they don't test things.
JMO

 

[Ali Rahim]

I don't know the extent of exactly what Bruce learned so its impossible to say. Some people say he learned more and others less.. its really not a factual point.

BUT, the method of trial and testing a idea or technique is something Ip Man himself promoted. This is a concept that its a vital component to every art. Yes you must first grasp what you are trying to implement.. but
your analogy isn't representative.

its like reading a chapter in a math book, and then trying the math problems at the end. If you don't see how it works in real life, then you don't really posses the skill. You have to acquire experience to gain practical knowledge. You have to find what works for you, or you will just be copying someone blindly.

the reason why you have so many people who can't apply Wing Chun is because they don't test things.
JMO

I think one should master the fundamentals of wing chun first, before getting self in the way (your own ideal or way of doing things), if the basic of the basic is not understood meaning the fundamentals it’s self, then where is one’s understanding coming from, which makes someone’s ideal even better then the original fundamentals of that system, in other words wing chun?

If someone comes up with an answer to a math problem, before learning the proper procedure, to find an mathematical conclusion, it is almost 100% chance that the answer will be wrong, then it is not wing chun, it should be called something else, in the case of Bruce Lee (JKD). When putting self in the way before having true understanding on something that is given to you, far as the fundamental, then the true essences of little ideal is lost (Sil Lum Tao). To me, that’s like putting the cart before the horse, just my opinion.

Don’t get me wrong, I think I’m following what you are saying, it’s great to have this conversation with, take care.

Ali.

 

[Ali Rahim]

Why does everyone wants to become a wing chun fighter, before having a strong understanding of the fundamentals, before changing the system to fix their needs?
Without going through the proper channels first, and without having a strong understand of little ideal, you are only fighting yourself, slowing down your own process and development of true understanding.

Ali.

 

[Ali Rahim]

Very well said

I thank you.

Ali.

 

[tkdduck]

What we do not understand we often ignore as unneeded. what you said is so true that if we would only take the time to understand the basics and not just know the basics, we would be better off. As in any martial art strength in stance equates to power in everything else we do.

For me this shows in my guard, I have a tendancy to drop the guard down and then when I perform other arm movements I have to recover from the wrong position of the guard.

don't discount the stance just because someone says it isn't needed. Understand stand it and make it natural and see when you call on it in your technics.

 

[Ali Rahim]

What we do not understand we often ignore as unneeded. what you said is so true that if we would only take the time to understand the basics and not just know the basics, we would be better off. As in any martial art strength in stance equates to power in everything else we do.

For me this shows in my guard, I have a tendancy to drop the guard down and then when I perform other arm movements I have to recover from the wrong position of the guard.

don't discount the stance just because someone says it isn't needed. Understand stand it and make it natural and see when you call on it in your technics.

You really got the right ideal, keep up the good work.

Ali.

 

[dmax999]

Here is my 2 cents since Bruce Lee was brought up on this stance thing.

I took Wing Chun Do (Bruce Lee's Wing Chu), I have never even seen anyone do JKD so I can't comment on that. We had a very specific stance and footwork movement that was not horse stance or a boxing stance. I have come to believe it is Xing-Yi santi san stance and footwork. It was very similar in movement to the footwork in the Bong Chuan line drill in Xing-Yi, but of course with a way to switch which foot was forward when needed.

 

[monji112000]

Ali,

Ofcourse you have to understand the basics, thats a given. You have to understand the technique you are trying to apply.

BUT, just understanding something doesn't mean you can do it. If this was the case then I would see many Good Wing Chun players.. but its not. Wing Chun has so many ideas, techniques, methods ect.. and its so abstract that maybe 10 Good Wing Chun fighters would have 10 very distance "styles" or preferences.

thats why you have so many students and disciples of Ip Man who fight, train, teach differently.

Each person is different, we all can't fight the same. You are a Big guy from the pictures I have seen of you. You don't expect your smaller students to fight exactly the same as you ? Some techniques must be personalized for someone of your height. While someone like me who is small and semi-short and slow movingwouldn't per-say fight exactly like you. I have to use more technique, theory, and Wing Chun ideas. Because I don't have the guarantee natural advantage.

many situations have a plethora of options IE pak sao ,tan sao , lap soa ,kick+footwork, ect..

maybe 30 possible options for one technique. Each possible option has a situation that its good, and that it isn't. Each has a timing, and a follow up, and a way to apply it based on the persons height and your height.

I can't
1. at first know and be able to switch between all possible techniques. This probably would take a life-time of training.
2. know how to apply any technique without actually doing it. These things can't be told, it must be done and corrected over and over again. You can't really tell someone how to have timing. You can say go at this time or that.. but that doesn't mean they are doing it correctly.
3. Often even then people have opinions on exactly what works or how you can do something differently. Its not that one person is wrong or correct, Because they both can do what they say and have a good reason for it.

So without some personal testing, and finding what works, when, how, for me.. I can NEVER completly learn wing chun.

This is a basic principle that Ip Man taught. Just ask any of his Disciples.


Brian

 

[Ali Rahim]

Ali,

Ofcourse you have to understand the basics, thats a given. You have to understand the technique you are trying to apply.

BUT, just understanding something doesn't mean you can do it. If this was the case then I would see many Good Wing Chun players.. but its not. Wing Chun has so many ideas, techniques, methods ect.. and its so abstract that maybe 10 Good Wing Chun fighters would have 10 very distance "styles" or preferences.

thats why you have so many students and disciples of Ip Man who fight, train, teach differently.

Each person is different, we all can't fight the same. You are a Big guy from the pictures I have seen of you. You don't expect your smaller students to fight exactly the same as you ? Some techniques must be personalized for someone of your height. While someone like me who is small and semi-short and slow movingwouldn't per-say fight exactly like you. I have to use more technique, theory, and Wing Chun ideas. Because I don't have the guarantee natural advantage.

many situations have a plethora of options IE pak sao ,tan sao , lap soa ,kick+footwork, ect..

maybe 30 possible options for one technique. Each possible option has a situation that its good, and that it isn't. Each has a timing, and a follow up, and a way to apply it based on the persons height and your height.

I can't
1. at first know and be able to switch between all possible techniques. This probably would take a life-time of training.
2. know how to apply any technique without actually doing it. These things can't be told, it must be done and corrected over and over again. You can't really tell someone how to have timing. You can say go at this time or that.. but that doesn't mean they are doing it correctly.
3. Often even then people have opinions on exactly what works or how you can do something differently. Its not that one person is wrong or correct, Because they both can do what they say and have a good reason for it.

So without some personal testing, and finding what works, when, how, for me.. I can NEVER completly learn wing chun.

This is a basic principle that Ip Man taught. Just ask any of his Disciples.


Brian

My teacher is 5’4 125lbs and well into his 80’s (plus), and can stop me in my tracks with the same technique you see me using. Good wing chun is not about height and weight, good wing chun is based on positioning and sensitivity.


I never use muscle force and pride myself in not doing so. The only way I’m able to maintain this ideal is through a strong understanding of the basic, and through a strong understanding almost anything can be accomplish. I never tell my students to fight like me, because it will take years for them to, but to only try to understand and master the basic to it’s fullest before going in to something else.


I never talk about techniques or teach techniques, techniques are nothing until the fundamentals are understood to the fullest in each level within the wing chun system.

Stay with what comes,, attack the attack,, finding and making bridge contact and bridge walking,, feet following the hands upon bridge contact,, follow what goes off and on bridge contact,, he goes soft,, you go hard ,, he go hard,, you go soft…

He goes fast,, you go slow,, he go slow,, you go fast,, applications and techniques are all extra stuff…

If you can master these examples,, you wouldn’t need a lot of techniques in your arsenal,, it wouldn’t make any differences…

I was taught all of the above examples is what good wing chun is…

Ali.

 

[Ali Rahim]

The problem is that most do not realized that “Sil Lam Tao”,, “Chum Kil” and “Wooden Man” are all training forms,, that signifies nothing more but bridging… Sil Lum Tao does not trust you to take one step in that form,, again signifying bridge contact (all the basic drills)…

Bil Jee,, Baat Chum Tao,, and Lok Kim Bok are all application form…

 

[Ali Rahim]

I really don’t understand, what does size has to do with learning the fundamentals and basic of the wing chun system, in this case the stance? When it comes to learning that stuff, we are all the same size.

Ali.

 

[bcbernam777]

Ali,

Ofcourse you have to understand the basics, thats a given. You have to understand the technique you are trying to apply.

BUT, just understanding something doesn't mean you can do it. If this was the case then I would see many Good Wing Chun players.. but its not. Wing Chun has so many ideas, techniques, methods ect.. and its so abstract that maybe 10 Good Wing Chun fighters would have 10 very distance "styles" or preferences.

thats why you have so many students and disciples of Ip Man who fight, train, teach differently.

Each person is different, we all can't fight the same. You are a Big guy from the pictures I have seen of you. You don't expect your smaller students to fight exactly the same as you ? Some techniques must be personalized for someone of your height. While someone like me who is small and semi-short and slow movingwouldn't per-say fight exactly like you. I have to use more technique, theory, and Wing Chun ideas. Because I don't have the guarantee natural advantage.

many situations have a plethora of options IE pak sao ,tan sao , lap soa ,kick+footwork, ect..

maybe 30 possible options for one technique. Each possible option has a situation that its good, and that it isn't. Each has a timing, and a follow up, and a way to apply it based on the persons height and your height.

I can't
1. at first know and be able to switch between all possible techniques. This probably would take a life-time of training.
2. know how to apply any technique without actually doing it. These things can't be told, it must be done and corrected over and over again. You can't really tell someone how to have timing. You can say go at this time or that.. but that doesn't mean they are doing it correctly.
3. Often even then people have opinions on exactly what works or how you can do something differently. Its not that one person is wrong or correct, Because they both can do what they say and have a good reason for it.

So without some personal testing, and finding what works, when, how, for me.. I can NEVER completly learn wing chun.

This is a basic principle that Ip Man taught. Just ask any of his Disciples.


Brian

You assume being tall to be an advantage

 

[Ali Rahim]

Ali,

You can't really tell someone how to have timing. You can say go at this time or that.. but that doesn't mean they are doing it correctly.

Brian

Any good “wing chun sifu” can teach timing, there are tons of drills that can help you with that understanding. Almost every legitimate wing chun lineage of Yip Man teaches timing drills, maybe your sifu hasn’t taught those drills to you yet.

Timing should play a big roll within your wing chun arsenal. That way it takes the struggle out of the fight, scents you feel that it can’t be taught, I wont go into it right now, unless someone really wants to know, and is asking sincerely.

Ali.