Pole form low horse discussion

[wckf92]

Just a quick image search on the web reveals that different WC'ers use different foot alignment with regard to the low horse in the pole form. So, figured I'd see if we could get a discussion going about the pro's / con's.
Q1: does your lineage/WC have this low horse in your pole form?
Q2: if so, are your feet parallel? Or turned slightly outwards?
Q3: do you feel one has any advantages/disadvantages over the other?

Discussion welcome!

 

[geezer]

My lineage teaches the parallel foot position exactly as shown in the last picture above ^^^^ of Sifu Alex Richter. I however am duck footed and have bone fusions in my ankles, so I physically cannot assume that position and instead do the horse with my feet splayed outward. Honestly, it's just as functional and a lot easier on the knees.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Q2: if so, are your feet parallel? Or turned slightly outwards?

It doesn't matter which MA system that you may train, the horse stance always have feet parallel with 50-50 weight distribution.

You can turn your front foot outward with 40% weight on it. That's called 4-6 stance (no longer horse stance). But your back foot angle should not change.

Both in horse stance and 4-6 stance, to have your back foot turning outward is always wrong.

Also. when you apply hip throw with either outward horse stance, or inward horse stance, you may hurt your knee joint. Horse stance is the only stance that there is only one correct angle and there is only one correct width.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you have outward horse stance, if your opponent pushes on your

- chest, you will fall backward without much resistance.
- back, you will fall forward and hurt your knees.

 

[jobo]

When you have outward horse stance, if your opponent pushes on your

- chest, you will fall backward without much resistance.
- back, you will fall forward and hurt your knees.

That's so no matter where you put your feet , horse stance is just a bad position to be in if someone is going to push you, or kick Or punch you for that matter, it is however useful if you go to a party and there are no chairs left,

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's so no matter where you put your feet , horse stance is just a bad position to be in if someone is going to push you, or kick Or punch you for that matter, it is however useful if you go to a party and there are no chairs left,

Without horse stance, there will be no hip throw, shoulder throw, embracing throw, ...

 

[jobo]

Without horse stance, there will be no hip throw, shoulder throw, embracing throw, ...

But that's not a stance, it's a movement, dropping your weight is fine, standing there like a lemon, is not

 

[KPM]

As in 6 out of 7 of the examples you provided in the OP, I was taught in Tang Yik Weng Chun pole to assume a natural and comfortable position...which is allowing the feet to turn a bit outward. Since when using the pole the horse stance is actually a side stance and not a frontal stance, having the feet turned a bit outward allows you to move smoothly between the horse stance position and the cat stance position....in other words, moving from the ready or guard position (with a cat stance) smoothly and quickly into the thrust (with a horse stance). Trying to stand with the feet parallel slows this down and does not allow a good transfer of power into the thrust. Just try it and you should feel a difference. Likewise, the rear foot is also turned a bit outward in the horse stance because it is also turned outward in the cat stance. If you try to keep the rear foot parallel in the cat stance, then it is more difficult to drop your weight back on the rear leg into a nice deep position. Instead, you will end up standing more upright and won't have the stance low enough to rest the pole comfortably across your lead thigh. I see a number of errors in most of those pictures in the OP....from a Tang Yik Weng Chun perspective.

 

[Danny T]

Horse stance training (the static stance) is for conditioning. Using footwork and using the stance in a snapshot of time is not the same as holding the stance.

 

[geezer]

Without horse stance, there will be no hip throw, shoulder throw, embracing throw, ...

John, I find your comment confusing. You say without a horse-stance with the feet held parallel to each other, you can't perform any of the kinds of throws you listed? Odd, because I know a number of wrestlers who are quite proficient at throws and none of them trained a TCMA horse stance!

Secondly, this thread is about using the horse with the WC long pole. How would holding my feet parallel in the classic TCMA position make me more proficient at pole work? Not that it matters much to me since physiologically I am not able to assume that stance. Incidentally. when I used to ride horses on my grandfather's ranch a a kid, I had the same problem. "Papa" used to tease me saying that my feet stuck out like Charlie Chaplin.

 

[geezer]

That's so no matter where you put your feet , horse stance is just a bad position to be in if someone is going to push you, or kick Or punch you for that matter, it is however useful if you go to a party and there are no chairs left,

...or to a country where they have those straddle-the-hole toilets! I've heard those are common in parts of China.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

know a number of wrestlers who are quite proficient at throws and none of them trained a TCMA horse stance! ... How would holding my feet parallel in the classic TCMA position make me more proficient at pole work?

Non Chinese wrestlers may not train horse stance. But they still understand the "feel parallel" principle.

In horse stance, when your feet are parallel, you will have the best balance. If you move your feet outward (or inward), the more that you move, the weaker balance that you will have. When your feet are in 180 degree (left foot point west and right foot point east, or left foot point east and right foot point west), you will have the weakest balance. This is just simple physics. It has nothing to do with MA style.

When your opponent's pole hits on your pole, you will need strong rooting to resist the force from his pole.

No matter which stance that you may use, if your feet is on east-west direction, your south-north direction balance will be weak. If your feet are parallel, it can give you the strongest rooting on your south-north direction.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The same logic also apply on the width of the horse stance. When that width is your shoulder width plus 2 fists width, you will have the best balance, if you move your feet closer (or apart), your balance will get weaker.

So by physics, there is only one correct horse stance (both width and feet direction).

 

[KPM]

...or to a country where they have those straddle-the-hole toilets! I've heard those are common in parts of China.

And the middle east! They even have porta-johns that are of the "straddle the hole" variety! With the places for your feet clearly marked out!

 

[KPM]

When your opponent's pole hits on your pole, you will need strong rooting to resist the force from his pole.

Part of the stance training in Tang Yik pole is to stand in the horse stance with the pole in the full thrust or "Cheung" position and press hard against a solid object with the tip of the pole. This trains balance and rooting. Likewise you stand in the cat stance with the pole in the thrust position of "Tik" and do the same. I have never felt like having the feet turned a bit outward was a problem with balance or rooting.

 

[KPM]

In horse stance, when your feet are parallel, you will have the best balance. If you move your feet outward (or inward), the more that you move, the weaker balance that you will have. When your feet are in 180 degree (left foot point west and right foot point east, or left foot point east and right foot point west), you will have the weakest balance. This is just simple physics. It has nothing to do with MA style.

.

That only applies when considering the horse stance to be a frontal position. It is not a frontal position when used with the pole. It is a side position. When sending and receiving force from the side, having the feet turned a bit outward provides better stability because it is harder to "roll over" the edge of your foot.

 

[yak sao]

Never been to China or the Middle East but right here in the Good Ol USA if I ever have to use a port a pot you can be sure I'm doing the deep horse stance.

 

[Danny T]

...or to a country where they have those straddle-the-hole toilets! I've heard those are common in parts of China.

Have used these in Asia, in the Ukraine, the Middle East, the Philippines.
This is a nice modern private stall with a hose and a bar to hold onto.


Many are just open like these.

 

[wckf92]

you guys are killing me!!!!

 

[ShortBridge]

Anyone who says traditional Kung Fu doesn't work in real life has never had to hold a horse stance over a middle eastern hole in the floor toilet.