The Mechanics Of Powering Your Martial Arts Movement

[isshinryuronin]

This reminded me of something an old teacher pointed out and it's why keeping the fashion and technology of the times in perspective is valuable to me.

We often take our modern world of "grip" for granted.

People of the past often learned to fight and wrestle in footwear and on surfaces that would have you slipping around if
you weren't careful.
A lot of fighting traditions come from a time when grippy concrete surfaces and rubber soles were just unfathomable.
Best people had was leather soled shoes or sandals against surfaces like stone or wood that were just getting smoother with age. There was give inside your socks, shoes/boots/sandals, and then between your soles and the ground.

Interesting point few of us have considered, I'm sure. So, when we look at traditional stances, maybe we can understand them better by taking this into account. Even with today's pavement, flooring, shoes, etc., there are times we will not have ideal footing, so the value of these stances may come into play.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think this is similar to Chinkuchi of Okinawa Karate I talked about. But it's about the whole body, not just the waist. I don't know how you can separate the movement into waist, feet, legs, shoulder etc. I just don't think you can practice one at a time individually.

You can. Then you add them together slowly. At first it’s like trying to carry water in a basket. Eventually, you have a very large tank that can carry each individual torque and feeling forward in a movement. It takes a long time, but it is achievable.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This reminded me of something an old teacher pointed out and it's why keeping the fashion and technology of the times in perspective is valuable to me.

We often take our modern world of "grip" for granted.

People of the past often learned to fight and wrestle in footwear and on surfaces that would have you slipping around if
you weren't careful.
A lot of fighting traditions come from a time when grippy concrete surfaces and rubber soles were just unfathomable.
Best people had was leather soled shoes or sandals against surfaces like stone or wood that were just getting smoother with age. There was give inside your socks, shoes/boots/sandals, and then between your soles and the ground.

It’s one of the reasons we train this way. With slippery shoes, on the worst, slipperiest possible conditions. That way, if you have to use it, out in the real world, it’s easy.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Interesting point few of us have considered, I'm sure. So, when we look at traditional stances, maybe we can understand them better by taking this into account. Even with today's pavement, flooring, shoes, etc., there are times we will not have ideal footing, so the value of these stances may come into play.

Not so much the stance as the floor and and slippery shoe combined with the stance.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think this is similar to Chinkuchi of Okinawa Karate I talked about. But it's about the whole body, not just the waist. I don't know how you can separate the movement into waist, feet, legs, shoulder etc. I just don't think you can practice one at a time individually.

I always thought of chinkuchi as having to do with the alignment of the body at the moment of impact. Koshi helps get you there. And yes, it is about the whole body. I believe hips are often seen as the focal point because Americans tend to be very rigid in the hips. It's also the rotating bit most often seen or noticed when used.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This Sifu James Wing Woo in his kwoon circa 2003. Notice the slippery floor.

 

[geezer]

This thread is to discuss the ways to power one's martial arts movement. I was originally going to focus only on strikes, but decided to focus on movement instead. This was originally a side discussion in another group so I'll start there. Feel free to discus any mechanics of any system.

To start off here are the power generators
1. Linear Movement
2. Circular Movement
3. Weight Movement (dropping into a strike)
4. Gravity Movement
5. Foot Pivot
6. Foot /leg push
7. Hip twist vs Hip Rotation
8. Waist Twist vs Waist Rotation
9. Torso Twist vs Waist
10, Shoulder Twist vs Shoulder Rotation
11. Arm and leg power generation.
12. Body Rotation
13. Wrist Motion

Before this thread we were only talking about how to power a punch using the Torso, Waist, Shoulder. We were looking at a boxing video on how to generate power. Keep in mind that every system is different and even with in the same system a person may engage all power generators or engage only a few depending on the technique and distance. There is not only one way but many ways. Share your knowledge.

All these methods of power generation can be simplified for the purposes of discussion into about four main groups: Drop, rise, rotate, and press forward. Some methods combine two or more of these principles: drop and press forward, drop or rise and simultaneously rotate (creating a spiral) etc. The details and variations are nearly infinite. What matters is "Can you make it work?"

One big area that is missing from this list is the idea of borrowing your opponent's force. If you can borrow your opponent's energy, you can increase the force of your strikes regardless of which technique or "engine" you use.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Example of training power generation separately in Jow Ga Kung Fu.

1. Arm power - Punching in horse @ 0:021
2. Arm power - Double punch in horse @0:24

I drill these things separately so I can generate power in my punch when I'm not in a position to connect any other points of power. In karate and some other systems, the practitioner will drive power from the hip. In Jow Ga (as far as I know of) we don't do that for this drill. It seems strange not to use the hip or waist. But throw a double punch, while in horse. Does it feel strong or does it feel week? Twisting the hip for power doesn't work for double punches. That same way to generate power with the double punch is also used in a staff application. Actually it would probably work well with a cane. With the double punch there is no way to twist the hip to add the power. So we must learn other ways to develop power.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One big area that is missing from this list is the idea of borrowing your opponent's force. If you can borrow your opponent's energy, you can increase the force of your strikes regardless of which technique or "engine" you use.

This is a really difficult concept for many people to understand. The only reason I understand it is because I had it applied to me. Now when a kung fu teacher says "punch me like you are trying to hit me." I think twice about it. Do I really want have that energy returned to me lol.

No thanks.. keep the change lol

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

borrowing your opponent's force.

This is a good strategy.

For example,

- You throw a back fist, your opponent blocks it, You borrow his blocking force, change your back fist into a hook punch.
- You use right hand to grab on your opponent's wrist, use your left hand to grab on his elbow. You pull your opponent's arm. When he resists, you borrow that resistance force, release your right wrist grabbing hand, and punch on his face.
- You twist your opponent clockwise. When he resists, you borrow his resistance force, change your clockwise twisting into counter-clockwise twisting.
- ...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Good video. It talks about some of the things mentioned here. @Alan0354 He says he has secrets too lol. His words not mine lol.

This is a example of training power generation separately. Or maybe more accurately strength building for rotational power?

If he did a bow stance instead of lunge on the first exercises then he would get more rotation. A good bow stance takes away that risk with the knee that he's so concerned with.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

All these methods of power generation can be simplified for the purposes of discussion into about four main groups: Drop, rise, rotate, and press forward. Some methods combine two or more of these principles: drop and press forward, drop or rise and simultaneously rotate (creating a spiral) etc. The details and variations are nearly infinite. What matters is "Can you make it work?"

One big area that is missing from this list is the idea of borrowing your opponent's force. If you can borrow your opponent's energy, you can increase the force of your strikes regardless of which technique or "engine" you use.

Excellent point! We also use this idea, when making any point of contact with an opponent, borrowing their weight and connecting to them.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is a really difficult concept for many people to understand. The only reason I understand it is because I had it applied to me. Now when a kung fu teacher says "punch me like you are trying to hit me." I think twice about it. Do I really want have that energy returned to me lol.

No thanks.. keep the change lol

lol!

 

[isshinryuronin]

All these methods of power generation can be simplified

Simple is good. Natural is good.
Calculus is bad.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Simple is good. Natural is good.
Calculus is bad.

Lol!

 

[Flying Crane]

Im late to the discussion here, but I have described the Tibetan crane approach in the past, in various threads.

We take the rooting and rotation approach. You actively dig your feet into the ground and they you can press the feet down and then direct that energy into the hips to drive a rotation. The entire torso rotates as a unit from the hips to the shoulders, and we avoid or minimize twisting the spine. In addition, we use an exaggerated movement with the withdrawal of the non-punching arm, that is used as a training mechanism to help train the body in this rotation and ingrain the full-body connection. Application does not need to include that exaggerated movement. It is used in training, but is minimized or eliminated in use, once you have developed that skill. Once you understand the method, you can deliver equal power with the smaller movement. In Chinese martial arts, we often say, “move big to become small”. The big movement teaches, to enable smaller movement that is still powerful.

How this methodology translates into movement can vary depending on our physical position, but we have basic exercises and more complex exercises that we use as a progression in learning this skill. From a position with feet parallel, facing forward, we rotate the entire body from one side to the other, as we punch forward. From there, we begin punching with one foot stepped forward, similar to a bow stance, punching with both the rear hand and the lead hand. The rotation and use of the feet is a bit different from the basic position, but the principle is still there and it teaches adaptation while keeping the engine in the game. Then we actively step and punch, again keeping the engine in use and adapting the principle and method to that changing scenario with ongoing movement. After this, we can begin learning the forms that represent a much more complex series of movement, and work to keep the principle and method active, within this complex movement.

And of course at every stage of this process we are able to work on understanding application, at the appropriate level.

 

[Flying Crane]

Simple is good. Natural is good.
Calculus is bad.

Well, calculus gets us to the moon and beyond, but we aren’t really trying to do that in martial arts.

 

[dvcochran]

Well, calculus gets us to the moon and beyond, but we aren’t really trying to do that in martial arts.

I hate Calculus even though I have to use it quite a bit in motion control. It is the 'short cut' for algebraic equations. You can do almost any trajectory with algebra but damn, does it get long and complex.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I like to simplify my power generation method as compress and release.

Example:

Compress (shrink)- move left foot next to right foot. move both hands next to right waist. Twist your body to your right.
Release (expand) - Let go your left leg and right arm.

The more compressing that you have, the more releasing that you can generate. It's easy to learn and easy to drill.

The forward hopping is the key. It forces you to coordinate your punch with your foot landing.

Here is another example: Use hammer fist to compress, use jab to release.

 

[Alan0354]

Good video. It talks about some of the things mentioned here. @Alan0354 He says he has secrets too lol. His words not mine lol.

This is a example of training power generation separately. Or maybe more accurately strength building for rotational power?

If he did a bow stance instead of lunge on the first exercises then he would get more rotation. A good bow stance takes away that risk with the knee that he's so concerned with.

you really MISS READ. I said there is NO SECRET. You know the basic and just practice.

You said about what if.....for some reason you cannot involve the whole body(heel, feet, waist, shoulder....), how are you going to do it. BUT, you show all the fights that are free standing that you can use all. Why not show me if you are tackled by a grappler and you are like 1) on the ground and on your back, 2) pushed against the wall and other that you cannot use the whole body. How do you use waist, shoulder and still give a good punch. If I am on free standing, I can use Chinkuchi.

Sorry, talk is cheap. give me example, don't just say "if" you cannot use the whole body, then the other parts are important. I want to see how you punch or attack IF your position is compromised, show videos if you can.

I think you are right that not all situation is ideal, BUT, show me your solution if you are on your back, pinned against the wall, got grabbed and the opponent are at your face. Don't show more free standing fights and talk.

For free standing like boxing where you can dance around. I stand behind what I said.

I am NOT interested in talking, I want SOLUTION. show me a solution........How to strike when you are on your back, pinned against the wall or other position by a grappler. If you have a solution, I am all ears.

Hey, at least I did come up with using iron palm to hit the back of the grappler IF I can hit hard enough to injure the grappler. Sadly it did not work out. Tell me how you strike against a grappler where you cannot use your whole body. I am all ears.