The Mechanics Of Powering Your Martial Arts Movement

[Wing Woo Gar]

That depends on what they are trying to measure. Boxing and martial art kinesiology is actually a huge area of study to the point that some major universities have graduate studies dedicated to it. If you want to know how to hit harder i.e. higher impact force then that's what you focus your study on. If you want to know best areas to hit, then you focus on that. as far as timing a strike, that is purely reaction time and is something that can be trained and kinesiologist can study why/how reaction time works. Everything in the martial arts is quantifiable in some way.

I disagree. The Human is not so simple( ok maybe me). We are not all the same. the state of mind in any person in any given situation is not quantifiable. This very thing is as often as not a critical factor in the quality of movement. Navy SEALs are not chosen only for physical ability. The strength of character and mental state are more important factors and simply cannot be boiled down to an equation.

 

[Flying Crane]

Furthermore, Physics is an incomplete science that grows and discovers regularly. To assert that we have all the answers due to our understanding of physics is simply the antithesis of science, and a rather rudimentary point of view

One of my pet peeves is when someone throws out “E=MC^2” in a martial arts discussion. In my opinion, that reveals a less-than-rudimentary understanding of both martial arts and physics, yet the use of the equation is often an attempt to “elevate” one’s training and authority in The eyes of the other discussion participants. “See, we are SCIENTISTS! Our training is superior to yours!”

When throwing a punch, how do you determine M? Is it the weight of the fist? How do you weigh a fist when it is connected to the arm and torso? How about the arm? The torso? The entire body? But the fist or the body isn’t floating in a vacuum and moving uniformly as a solid body. It is planted on the ground and only part of it is moving toward the target. What about a deliberate and forceful driving of the fist through the target, vs. letting it rebound off the surface of the target, without any attempt at penetration? This creates complications in the simple act of determining what the measurements are.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

One of my pet peeves is when someone throws out “E=MC^2” in a martial arts discussion. In my opinion, that reveals a less-than-rudimentary understanding of both martial arts and physics, yet the use of the equation is often an attempt to “elevate” one’s training and authority in The eyes of the other discussion participants. “See, we are SCIENTISTS! Our training is superior to yours!”

When throwing a punch, how do you determine M? Is it the weight of the fist? How do you weigh a fist when it is connected to the arm and torso? How about the arm? The torso? The entire body? But the fist or the body isn’t floating in a vacuum and moving uniformly as a solid body. It is planted on the ground and only part of it is moving toward the target. What about a deliberate and forceful driving of the fist through the target, vs. letting it rebound off the surface of the target, without any attempt at penetration? This creates complications in the simple act of determining what the measurements are.

We just end up in the weeds here as most of us(me)don’t have the education or ability to debate physics application in martial arts.

 

[Flying Crane]

We just end up in the weeds here as most of us(me)don’t have the education or ability to debate physics application in martial arts.

Exactly. Which was my point in this little tangent.

 

[krowe]

This thread is to discuss the ways to power one's martial arts movement. I was originally going to focus only on strikes, but decided to focus on movement instead. This was originally a side discussion in another group so I'll start there. Feel free to discus any mechanics of any system.

To start off here are the power generators
1. Linear Movement
2. Circular Movement
3. Weight Movement (dropping into a strike)
4. Gravity Movement
5. Foot Pivot
6. Foot /leg push
7. Hip twist vs Hip Rotation
8. Waist Twist vs Waist Rotation
9. Torso Twist vs Waist
10, Shoulder Twist vs Shoulder Rotation
11. Arm and leg power generation.
12. Body Rotation
13. Wrist Motion

Before this thread we were only talking about how to power a punch using the Torso, Waist, Shoulder. We were looking at a boxing video on how to generate power. Keep in mind that every system is different and even with in the same system a person may engage all power generators or engage only a few depending on the technique and distance. There is not only one way but many ways. Share your knowledge.

You covered a lot of ground with that opening statement haha. One that I did not see mentioned is more of a way to augment the power in your strikes using the stretch reflex. Its not really a stand alone method but a way to use your body like a rubber band. There is a physiological effect that occurs due to small organelles in between the muscles where they become ligament. This organelle creates a stretch reflex when the muscle has been stretched to a certain point, causing it to contract. If you are in good control of your kinetic chain you can execute your movments (in general) and as such, strikes, to the timing of the stretch reflex. This is a good way to at a snap to your strikes. It can be combined with the torque to produce a lot of power. So basically its the bodies natural elasticity combined with good timing during sequential movments. Catch the "bounce point" and carry the force through to the next movement to accelerate. There are a lot of sneaky ways to use this to change up the tempo and throw your opponent off too. Works with grappling too. Except you force your opponent to resist a press or pull which causes them to reflexively contract tgeir muscles to resist (if they fall for it) and a beat later the muscles will relax and create an opening. There are some funky tricks you cna do with breath as well.

 

[dvcochran]

When you throw a punch, will the opponent move straight in or back to block, or will they just cover up and cower? What is the formula for computing this? How does one quantify one's heart and fighting spirit that may vary depending on situation or emotional state at the time?

Doesn't one's spirit affect one's level of commitment in sparring/combat, and thus affect not only the choice of move, but the power put behind it? Is the opponent passive or aggressive and how does this affect one's action/reaction?

Judgement and reading the opponent is based on a variety of experiences and even more interpretations of them. After extensive studies (psychological and mathematical) a statistical model may be drawn for a large sample, but will not be reliable for any single person at any given time.

I have seen people with terrible form and inefficient body mechanics, but would be fearsome opponents as they were bat sh*t crazy. Science can explain the transmission of electro-chemical impulses in the brain, but cannot explain how or the method one uses their free will to express or execute their thoughts and actions.

The bottom line is that math can explain the physical mechanics of individual body movements and their optimum effects under a given set of criteria, but not how they are used or how one's spiritual bearing will affect them. IMO, these are variables outside the realm of physics. To think karate (and other MA) can be reduced to simple body mechanics has a very limited understanding of MA, combat, and life in general.

But you are now talking about 3 different things; essentially physical, mental, and spiritual. Up to this point we were only talking about the mechanics (physics) of movement.
It is easy to take martial arts completely out of the conversation and talk about people I know who are bat sh*t crazy good fighters because they are well, bat sh*t crazy.

 

[dvcochran]

One of my pet peeves is when someone throws out “E=MC^2” in a martial arts discussion. In my opinion, that reveals a less-than-rudimentary understanding of both martial arts and physics, yet the use of the equation is often an attempt to “elevate” one’s training and authority in The eyes of the other discussion participants. “See, we are SCIENTISTS! Our training is superior to yours!”

When throwing a punch, how do you determine M? Is it the weight of the fist? How do you weigh a fist when it is connected to the arm and torso? How about the arm? The torso? The entire body? But the fist or the body isn’t floating in a vacuum and moving uniformly as a solid body. It is planted on the ground and only part of it is moving toward the target. What about a deliberate and forceful driving of the fist through the target, vs. letting it rebound off the surface of the target, without any attempt at penetration? This creates complications in the simple act of determining what the measurements are.

Sooo, instead you say "SEE WE ARE MARTIAL ARTISTS! And this is okay?
We all see the bigger picture in different ways. The broader a person's experience the more likely they are to overlap that experience with their training. That is not a bad thing and more often is very enlightening.

In your argument of measuring for M, whatever you measure (finger, fist, or whole arm) would be used as a constant going forward. You would create a baseline to know how to interpret the results going forward.
Really not that hard and exactly how people use an accelerometer on a punching bag.

 

[isshinryuronin]

But you are now talking about 3 different things; essentially physical, mental, and spiritual. Up to this point we were only talking about the mechanics (physics) of movement.

I was responding to the quote below.

Every single aspect of all legitimate martial arts are quantitative

But even the mechanics may be affected by the mental and spiritual aspects of TMA as I discussed.

 

[Hanzou]

I fail to see the difference between this and any sort of religion, fairy tale, myth, or old wives tales. Your statement is valid only so long as you don’t engage in believing in these things. That being said, many people derive benefit from these things, no matter the substantive qualities or lack thereof.

There isn't much difference. Both are highly dangerous when people start to believe the inherent BS these dogmas spew out.

 

[J. Pickard]

I disagree. The Human is not so simple( ok maybe me). We are not all the same. the state of mind in any person in any given situation is not quantifiable. This very thing is as often as not a critical factor in the quality of movement. Navy SEALs are not chosen only for physical ability. The strength of character and mental state are more important factors and simply cannot be boiled down to an equation.

It is quantifiable. Mental states are literally the entirety of certain fields of neuro science.

Only to the extent that it can be measured, yes?

yes, and as a result you can explore where those measurements come and why they are what they are from which will lead to more questions, and ultimately more questions on top of that ad infinitum. And from that we learn more and get better at things.

When you throw a punch, will the opponent move straight in or back to block, or will they just cover up and cower? What is the formula for computing this? How does one quantify one's heart and fighting spirit that may vary depending on situation or emotional state at the time?

Doesn't one's spirit affect one's level of commitment in sparring/combat, and thus affect not only the choice of move, but the power put behind it? Is the opponent passive or aggressive and how does this affect one's action/reaction?

Judgement and reading the opponent is based on a variety of experiences and even more interpretations of them. After extensive studies (psychological and mathematical) a statistical model may be drawn for a large sample, but will not be reliable for any single person at any given time.

I have seen people with terrible form and inefficient body mechanics, but would be fearsome opponents as they were bat sh*t crazy. Science can explain the transmission of electro-chemical impulses in the brain, but cannot explain how or the method one uses their free will to express or execute their thoughts and actions.

The bottom line is that math can explain the physical mechanics of individual body movements and their optimum effects under a given set of criteria, but not how they are used or how one's spiritual bearing will affect them. IMO, these are variables outside the realm of physics. To think karate (and other MA) can be reduced to simple body mechanics has a very limited understanding of MA, combat, and life in general.

Regardless of mental state, biomechanics is the same. A lever is a lever and feeling pumped up doesn't change that. Heart is an organ and spirit is a vague nonsense descriptor for a complex mental state of which can be measured. Everything you have listed here, individually, is quantifiable in some regard except individual behavior (as far as I know). But that's not my point. My point is that developing "power" does nothing to help the end goal of increasing damage done to an opponent the basic mechanics of which are already fully understood individually. If you want to explore ways of increasing damage to an opponent then first figuring out what causes that helps. A lot goes into making an overall effective fighter and it is super complex and made of hundreds of parts, but the question of how to get more power is not complex. Does it matter? To most people, no. For others clearly and accurately defining terms can help to find the answers they are looking for. If you want to know which technique has the highest potential for damage, then understanding the mechanics of the human body in an accurate way can help find that answer. You don't need to know it to be a good fighter, you don't even need to know it to be a good coach. But if you ask the question "why" and you want to explore the why then correctly identifying terms helps.

 

[J. Pickard]

Furthermore, Physics is an incomplete science that grows and discovers regularly. To assert that we have all the answers due to our understanding of physics is simply the antithesis of science, and a rather rudimentary point of view

there is no such thing as a "complete science". Science is a method of discovering truths about our universe and everything in it and until the grand unified theory is discovered there will always be more questions than we have answers for. However, certain principles are fully understood. Understanding these principals fully and accurately can help you find answers to questions such as "how do I cause maximum damage with a punch under specific circumstances". Surface level; Hit hard. For those that surface level isn't satisfying enough you gotta go deeper.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Ugly Eastern mysticism.

What does a tiger care about numbers? They only care about their bone structure.

And before humans invented numbers, there was the Universe.

 

[dvcochran]

I was responding to the quote below.

But even the mechanics may be affected by the mental and spiritual aspects of TMA as I discussed.

After a time in training I agree.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The bottom line is that math can explain the physical mechanics of individual body movements and their optimum effects under a given set of criteria, but not how they are used or how one's spiritual bearing will affect them. IMO, these are variables outside the realm of physics. To think karate (and other MA) can be reduced to simple body mechanics has a very limited understanding of MA, combat, and life in general.

I tend to look at Martial Arts from the perspective of Body Mechanics + Human Behavior + Human Biology + Fighting System = Martial Arts

Body Mechanics = This will the physical side of things which can be trained without need of being able to apply the technique. For the most part, most of this stuff can be measured and conversations about physics can be brought up. This is what's measured and is done so out side of the context of the other two areas. This is also the area where the Motion and Structure of Martial Arts is trained. For many of us we learn this long before we understand why. Most martial arts teacher spend little time about going through long debates and questions about why you stand or move a certain way. Topics like this usually have short answers, then the student trains it until they are bored, then they train it again. When students ask how many times they must train it the teacher may answer "Until I tell you to stop." To this day none of my teachers have said stop, so I still train stuff I started off with as a beginner.

Human Behavior = How the techniques are designed to exploit human reactions to a variety of Martial Arts Motion. Human behavior is so reliable that we can predict with certainty how a person reacts when a jab is thrown straight for the face, to the left of the face, above the face, and too the right of the face. We also know at which skill level these various reactions begin to change. Beginners react differently than Advance practitioners. People who spar react differently than people who don't spar. This is a key component (I think more important than Body Mechanics) to the Applications of Martial Arts. If you know how and when your opponent will attack or defend then you can exploit that effort and find weaknesses and openings. Physics don't measure this area.

Human Biology = The physical and emotional and mental construction of a person. This often identifies weak and strong areas of each and how to exploit or avoid them. Techniques are usually designed to flow in a way that is most effective in striking the weaknesses of these areas.

Examples: techniques that target the lower part of the face avoid the hardest parts of the skull. Attacking without emotion vs attacking with anger or fear. All of these things make up the Human Biology. Quotes like "be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself" reflect the mental state that some believe martial arts should be in. This will affect how you train and apply martial arts in a physical fight.

Using this equation: Body Mechanics + Human Behavior + Human Biology + Fighting System = Martial Arts , means that Physics is only going to be able to Measure 1/4 of what makes a technique powerful or effective. Getting hit with a hard punch when you are expecting it, is not the same as getting hit with a hard punch when you are least able to defend against it.

In a regular boxing match, the most effective punches ares often not the most powerful punches. We can see evidence of this in the punch count. We also see exception with knockouts from glancing blows, where a significantly lighter punch or kick KO's someone. There's just a lot to Martial Arts and Physics is a small part of it which is why many people can learn martial arts and be powerful in without knowing physics.

I was curious about Atlas (the robot that runs and does flips) How much of it is actually using physics? I was surprised to find this quote:

"Atlas's control software doesn't explicitly tell the robot how to move its joints, but rather it employs mathematical models of the underlying physics of the robot's body and how it interacts with the environment. Atlas relies on its whole body to balance and move."

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You covered a lot of ground with that opening statement haha. One that I did not see mentioned is more of a way to augment the power in your strikes using the stretch reflex. Its not really a stand alone method but a way to use your body like a rubber band. There is a physiological effect that occurs due to small organelles in between the muscles where they become ligament. This organelle creates a stretch reflex when the muscle has been stretched to a certain point, causing it to contract. If you are in good control of your kinetic chain you can execute your movments (in general) and as such, strikes, to the timing of the stretch reflex. This is a good way to at a snap to your strikes. It can be combined with the torque to produce a lot of power. So basically its the bodies natural elasticity combined with good timing during sequential movments. Catch the "bounce point" and carry the force through to the next movement to accelerate. There are a lot of sneaky ways to use this to change up the tempo and throw your opponent off too. Works with grappling too. Except you force your opponent to resist a press or pull which causes them to reflexively contract tgeir muscles to resist (if they fall for it) and a beat later the muscles will relax and create an opening. There are some funky tricks you cna do with breath as well.

Nice post and on topic. Thanks!

 

[Dirty Dog]

And yet the vast vast vast majority of folks lack the background in physics, biology, chemistry and likely some other topics, to do so. And we are able to discuss it quite adequately without doing so.

I am not an engineer. And yet, I somehow manage to talk rationally, coherently, and reasonably about car stuff. I even manage to do most of the work on them myself.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

there is no such thing as a "complete science". Science is a method of discovering truths about our universe and everything in it and until the grand unified theory is discovered there will always be more questions than we have answers for. However, certain principles are fully understood. Understanding these principals fully and accurately can help you find answers to questions such as "how do I cause maximum damage with a punch under specific circumstances". Surface level; Hit hard. For those that surface level isn't satisfying enough you gotta go deeper. I agree and disagree. “fully understood” rarely applies. I am asking individuals to describe how they go about creating the movement. You can describe that however you like. I will repeat myself here. The human is not so simple, we are not all the same. Yes a lever is a lever and all three lever systems are found in the body. Is your humerus the exact same as mine? No. Is your nutrition, age, size, mind or anything exactly the same as mine? No. My point is that without measuring each individual for every known facet that applies to moving your human around in some certain way, there is no way to apply your rubric to this topic of discussion. Similarly, one can not simply dismiss how an individual experiences that movement without a lot more info on that particular individual. Under the circumstances of this forum discussion, anecdotal responses hold nearly the same water as any other response because we simply don’t have solid information on the subjects that respond. I do appreciate your opinion and input to this discussion. Thank you.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

there is no such thing as a "complete science". Science is a method of discovering truths about our universe and everything in it and until the grand unified theory is discovered there will always be more questions than we have answers for. However, certain principles are fully understood. Understanding these principals fully and accurately can help you find answers to questions such as "how do I cause maximum damage with a punch under specific circumstances". Surface level; Hit hard. For those that surface level isn't satisfying enough you gotta go deeper.

Sorry, I wrote my response in your quote. Typing without looking…

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I am not an engineer. And yet, I somehow manage to talk rationally, coherently, and reasonably about car stuff. I even manage to do most of the work on them myself.

You must have old cars because I can’t find a thing I recognize in new ones.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You must have old cars because I can’t find a thing I recognize in new ones.

New cars are no more difficult to maintain or modify than old ones. In many ways, they are easier.