The major issue for WC sticky hands and Taiji push hands

[Kung Fu Wang]

In both the WC sticky hands and Taiji push hands, your arms contact on your opponent's arms. When your opponent start to punch, or push, you can sense his intention from the early beginning when his speed is still slow and power is still weak.

In a real fight, you don't have such luxury. You can only sense your opponent's intention at the end of his full speed and full powerful punch or push.

So how to modify both training to meet the reality? Your thought?

 

[drop bear]

You could potentially throw and then use the contact with their hands as they block or cover.

 

[Martial D]

In both the WC sticky hands and Taiji push hands, your arms contact on your opponent's arms. When your opponent start to punch, or push, you can sense his intention from the early beginning when his speed is still slow and power is still weak.

In a real fight, you don't have such luxury. You can only sense your opponent's intention at the end of his full speed and full powerful punch or push.

So how to modify both training to meet the reality? Your thought?

For me it's just situational. When bombs are flying in it's time to move your feet and cover up! If you get a chance to enter to trapping range that's when being sticky is more useful.

The thing is, a lot of fights start there and end there too. Guy grabs other guy by the arms or shirt as things escalate. This is the situation in sparring and fighting that I find myself doing wingchunny things more often then not.

 

[geezer]

In both the WC sticky hands and Taiji push hands, your arms contact on your opponent's arms. When your opponent start to punch, or push, you can sense his intention from the early beginning when his speed is still slow and power is still weak.

In a real fight, you don't have such luxury. You can only sense your opponent's intention at the end of his full speed and full powerful punch or push. So how to modify both training to meet the reality? Your thought?

Range is a factor. when you are in close, bordering on the clinch or grappling range, there is more contact, and the kind of skills trained in chi-sau come into play to a greater degree. I always thought that grappling was sorta like full-on total body chi-sau. Since you are the shuai chiao pro, who also trained WC back in the day, what's your opinion, John?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think the premise of this post if flawed and what push hands is for is misunderstood

 

[Danny T]

How about doing some random striking and grappling drills and spar it using multiple ranges for both.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Range is a factor. when you are in close, bordering on the clinch or grappling range, there is more contact, and the kind of skills trained in chi-sau come into play to a greater degree. I always thought that grappling was sorta like full-on total body chi-sau. Since you are the shuai chiao pro, who also trained WC back in the day, what's your opinion, John?

I agree with Drop Bear and Danny T that if you can throw a punch first, when your opponent blocks, you can start your WC sticky hands, or Taiji push hands right at that moment. If you wait until your opponent starts to throw punches at you, it may be more difficult.

For example, I like to use a

- back fist to set up elbow control.
- hook punch to set up under hook.
- uppercut to set up over hook.
- rhino guard (or straight punch) to set up head lock.
- ...

If you train either WC sticky hand or Taiji push hand, IMO, you should cross the distance and attack first. In other words, the training should include to use

- kick to close the distance,
- punch to obtain arm contact.

In other words, your punch is more than just a punch. Your punch is a punch followed by a set up for sticky hand, push hand, or clinch..

 

[DanT]

In both the WC sticky hands and Taiji push hands, your arms contact on your opponent's arms. When your opponent start to punch, or push, you can sense his intention from the early beginning when his speed is still slow and power is still weak.

In a real fight, you don't have such luxury. You can only sense your opponent's intention at the end of his full speed and full powerful punch or push.

So how to modify both training to meet the reality? Your thought?

Either you establish contact before the powerful strike, or evade it and contact after. I only contact with my opponents arms if they are in the way of ME punching THEM in the head. They are reacting to my movement, not me to theirs. I need to clear their reaction via my sticky hand skills (push hand skills also for me), in order to then continue to punch them in the head.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Either you establish contact before the powerful strike, or evade it and contact after. I only contact with my opponents arms if they are in the way of ME punching THEM in the head. They are reacting to my movement, not me to theirs. I need to clear their reaction via my sticky hand skills (push hand skills also for me), in order to then continue to punch them in the head.

But your intention should always be there. If you just think like a boxer, when you miss a punch, you just pull your punch back and throw another punch, that arm contact will never be established.

I can see 2 extremes here.

1. Boxer who has no arm contact intention.
2. WC guy, or Taiji guy who assume that arm contact is always available.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think the premise of this post if flawed and what push hands is for is misunderstood

It's not what Taiji push hands can give you. It's what you can use Taiji push hands format to achieve your own goal. Your own goal may be more that just

- listen,
- sticky,
- follow,
- ...

 

[DanT]

But your intention should always be there. If you just think like a boxer, when you miss a punch, you just pull your punch back and throw another punch, that arm contact will never be established.

I can see 2 extremes here.

1. Boxer who has no arm contact intention.
2. WC guy, or Taiji guy who assume that arm contact is always available.

I throw a punch, one of three things can happen:

1. I hit the opponent
2. The opponent blocks
3. I miss completely (he slips for example)

If 1 happens then: I use my initial punching hand to trap both his arms thus making him "stuck", while I punch with my free arm

If 2 happens then: I move myself to a favourable position, pin the blocking arm, and punch again

If 3 happens: I try to recover, probably by striking again

Obviously it's not perfect, but I'm not just throwing wild punches, I also use my Chi Ging (sticking energy) to trap, pin, and stick.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think the premise of this post if flawed and what push hands is for is misunderstood

Do you have any videos on good push hands vs. bad push hands? I've become quite curious from this forum, based on the debates over push hands, but since I'm visual I don't fully understand how it works. Would be very helpful, to me at least, to have visual representation of what is or is not good push hands.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In both the WC sticky hands and Taiji push hands, your arms contact on your opponent's arms. When your opponent start to punch, or push, you can sense his intention from the early beginning when his speed is still slow and power is still weak.

In a real fight, you don't have such luxury. You can only sense your opponent's intention at the end of his full speed and full powerful punch or push.

So how to modify both training to meet the reality? Your thought?

For me I didn't need to modify the training. I was able to sense intent of my opponent when in a clinch.

 

[marques]

In both the WC sticky hands and Taiji push hands, your arms contact on your opponent's arms. When your opponent start to punch, or push, you can sense his intention from the early beginning when his speed is still slow and power is still weak.

In a real fight, you don't have such luxury. You can only sense your opponent's intention at the end of his full speed and full powerful punch or push.

So how to modify both training to meet the reality? Your thought?

I don't know a bit about these martial arts. But I like the (very) short range against strikers or within striking rule sets (and push/sticky hand are for this distance). The first reason is most strikers don't like it and it is really dificult to put power at that distance (quite safe). Being myself slow (or training without relaying on speed) this distance allows me to prevent any strike front the very beginning, without seeing, just knowing where the elbows are. Then a short deflection and/or head/body movement is enough for defence. For offence I need to create room.

In short, I think it is an exercice/range that these styles chose to specialize. It will help in that context. Not mean to solve everything, I guess. Useless if the other guy keeps kicking effectively, or clinch or grab you well when you get close...

 

[JP3]

I don't know a bit about these martial arts. But I like the (very) short range against strikers or within striking rule sets (and push/sticky hand are for this distance). The first reason is most strikers don't like it and it is really dificult to put power at that distance (quite safe). Being myself slow (or training without relaying on speed) this distance allows me to prevent any strike front the very beginning, without seeing, just knowing where the elbows are. Then a short deflection and/or head/body movement is enough for defence. For offence I need to create room.

In short, I think it is an exercice/range that these styles chose to specialize. It will help in that context. Not mean to solve everything, I guess. Useless if the other guy keeps kicking effectively, or clinch or grab you well when you get close...

Only thing I'd ask is... don't you have some offense you can generate when in tight and close like that. That's where I like to be as well, and the Thai-boxing knees and elbows are all kind of good for that if you've got them in your toolkit.

 

[geezer]

I don't know a bit about these martial arts. But I like the (very) short range against strikers or within striking rule sets (and push/sticky hand are for this distance)...

IMO, your comment indicates that you do understand a bit about about the subject.

 

[marques]

Only thing I'd ask is... don't you have some offense you can generate when in tight and close like that. That's where I like to be as well, and the Thai-boxing knees and elbows are all kind of good for that if you've got them in your toolkit.

I love elbows and knees. They work specially well against non- Thai boxers... Anyway I like to finish with hooks or round kicks. Elbows and knees create time for that. There are also short low kicks and uppercuts. But again often I use all of this setup. If they work as an 'end strike', better.

 

[geezer]

Only thing I'd ask is... don't you have some offense you can generate when in tight and close like that. That's where I like to be as well, and the Thai-boxing knees and elbows are all kind of good for that if you've got them in your toolkit.

Thai boxing knees and elbows? ...Sure. Same goes for WC knees and elbows. They do the job quite well.

On the other hand, these days, I'd say some familiarity with Thai boxing clinch work is a really good thing to have. Just like having some grappling experience. Personally, I could use more of both.

 

[marques]

IMO, your comment indicates that you do understand a bit about about the subject.

Good to hear that from you. Perhaps I understand a bit about the subject, but all I know about these martial arts specifically was from internet.

 

[JP3]

I love elbows and knees. They work specially well against non- Thai boxers... Anyway I like to finish with hooks or round kicks. Elbows and knees create time for that. There are also short low kicks and uppercuts. But again often I use all of this setup. If they work as an 'end strike', better.

OK, all good then. I thought you were saying that you didn't have any close/tight range striking stuff, but you do. Useful to know, isn't it.