The layered bunkai theory is stupid

JowGaWolf

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Here Stephen Thompson, who represents karate in the UFC, demos the shuffle jab and does not chamber his punches.


I haven’t seen anyone chamber their punches in shadow boxing—karate, jow ga.


John Hackelman, a MMA trainer with a karate background, discusses hikite.



The best approach to understanding how to use a step jab with a low chamber is to search for people who do step jabs in sparring or competitive fighting. If your only goal is to show videos of people who say they don't do it then that means you aren't looking for those who do.

I found a video of Larry Holmes using a step jab with a low chamber. A practioner in a full contact match who uses it, and clips of Lyoto using it in MMA

There also seems yo be an assumption that the step Jab with a low chambered rear hand is a one punch technique.

While the technique can be used as a single Punch. The normal use is to step jab and to release the hand that is pulled back. This is similar to long fist when when we pull our entire arm behind our body which opens us up much more than what hikite does.

The reason the technique works is because it exploits the limited field of vision of human eye, the tendency for tunnel vision during fighting, and the way that our brains process danger.

If you are like most people who watch eyes and chest when fighting then that means you aren't paying attention to punches that start at waist level. If your brain does see the lowered fist then it will register it as something harmless. You are already primed gor this because of your perspective of hikite. You will never see it as some who is in the ready position to punch.

If I jab and low chamber my fist at the same time then you won't see it at all. Your corner man or coach will see it only because they are outside looking in. But you won't see it. If that jab lands on your face then you are done, The second one will be there before you get a visual. If the jab misses and you are close enough. Then the reverse punch will travel under the field of vision.

If the person is too far back then you will see what's going on. This is why I see this as an advanced technique. If you don't at least understand this much then you'll have a lot of trouble just setting up the technique. This is not a beginner level of understanding and I haven't even covered the footwork that is required nor have I mentioned the adjustments that needed depending on you opponent's stance. I haven't the windows of opportunity or how to exit if the jab fails to set up the second punch.

So while the motion of chambering punches at the hip seems like beginner stuff, the application of it is not.

It's OK if people think it's useless and don't want to use it. I actually recommend not using thing that one has no willingness to learn or understand beyond a narrow application. Not using Hikite at the hip isn't going to weaken one's fighting ability. But if you use it then make sure you have a solid understanding of it. It's more than just a fist at the hip. But if it's only a fist at the hip then you won't find much success with it.
 

marvin8

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The best approach to understanding how to use a step jab with a low chamber is to search for people who do step jabs in sparring or competitive fighting.
The argument is not about "step jab with a low chamber." It's about training the step jab with hikite—chambering the rear hand to the waist.
 

JowGaWolf

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The argument is not about "step jab with a low chamber." It's about training the step jab with hikite—chambering the rear hand to the waist.
What about the training of it? It's something that is done in training that helps in the application of it. What is it that you dont like about how it's trained in kata?
 

JowGaWolf

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Again, it's not me. Again, the Machidas, Atlas and John Hackelman's videos one, two, three gave the arguments.
They didn't give any arguments. They simply stated what they teach and how they teach it which is to pull their hand back to a high guard. They can teach what they want and how they want to, as that doesn't have any say on the validity of a technique. I already know that the machidas use it.

I can't speak for Atlas nor John Hackelman. All I can say they probably aren't looking for examples of it working. I don't even take karate anymore. But I can find and understand what they can't or better yet choose not to. The Machidas use their karate in MMA so it would be a shock to me that they didn't know. But not a shock that they know but choose not to spend 5 pages explaining the value of Hikite.


Poetry: Hidden fist ready to fly like arrow. Note how he uses his lead hand as the "pulling hand" and he pulls it across the body. This is stuff I've been saying throw this entire post.
 

JowGaWolf

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Stephen Thompson using Hikite.

"Listen to the commentator talk about how he keeps his hands low and why it's great."

How and what a person decides to teach students doesn't always line up to what they do in fights.
 

JowGaWolf

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Yes, they did. You can take the 5 videos, time stamp and give your arguments.
They are talking about kata. Kata is not supposed to be sparring. All I heard in that video is kata this and kata that. Kata doesn't teach you .. Yeah he's right Kata doesn't teach you timing and how to fight. It teaches you technique. Sparring is what teaches timing and how to fight.

He asked why do you train Hikite with a low chamber and why you don't train it with a high chamber. That's becauses it's Kata. Kata is not meant to train everything. Kata is to help you to better understand the techniques. It removes all of the extra stuff that is found in live sparring so that you can only focus on the technique.

After Kata one should spar and learn how to apply the techniques found in kata.

Why do you train Hikite with the fist by the hip? Because a punch can be thrown from the hip.

I could show 200 videos of punches thrown from the hip and the question would be the same " well what about Lyoto's argument." What about, he's either not knowledgible about Karate or he's not being totally honest about the techniques.

1. There is evidence that Hikite works
2. There is evidence that of why it works and why some people use it. See the Wonderboy video.
3. Why do you train Kata with the fist chambered by the hip. Because you can throw a punch from the hip.
4. Why is kata so square when you don't fight like that. Because Kata is for focusing on the technique. It is not for showing you how to fight or how to learn timing to be used in a fight. That's what sparring is for. People who spar using the techniques they train have a high ability to use those techniques successfully.

How to make karate work?
1. You don't make it work. It doesn't need to be fixed.
2 . How it works.
  • Learn kata,
  • Learn technique,
  • Drill technique,
  • Use technique in sparring,
  • Make mistakes,
  • Learn what you did wrong
  • Try again in sparring,
  • Understand technique application,
  • Train Kata
  • Learn new Kata and repeat.
There is no argument when I have show others who use it.
The question that you should be asking Why was that shop owner able use Hikite as it's trained in Kata? Many people think you'll get knocked out if you try to use it. I'm going to go out on the limb and say he knows how to use it and when to use it but those other people don't
 
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marvin8

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They are talking about kata. Kata is not supposed to be sparring. All I heard in that video is kata this and kata that. Kata doesn't teach you .. Yeah he's right Kata doesn't teach you timing and how to fight. It teaches you technique. Sparring is what teaches timing and how to fight.

He asked why do you train Hikite with a low chamber and why you don't train it with a high chamber. That's becauses it's Kata. Kata is not meant to train everything. Kata is to help you to better understand the techniques. It removes all of the extra stuff that is found in live sparring so that you can only focus on the technique.
Please specify the 1 of 5 videos and time stamp. I am not understanding your argument.
 

JowGaWolf

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Please specify the 1 of 5 videos and time stamp. I am not understanding your argument.
You aren't understanding my argument because there is none. And he doesn't make any either. How about you point out what you think his argument is and I'll respond to that.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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They are talking about kata.
The form training is always more exaggerated than the real combat. The reason is you try to develop something. Whether you may build bad habit from it, that can a another interested discussion.

There was a period of time I tried to train exactly as I may fight (pull my punch back to my high guard). After a period of time, I felt there was something missing. The missing part was I didn't challenge my body enough. For example, if I didn't train to touch my hand on my foot when I kicked, my flexibility would get worse day by day. I then added exaggeration back into my training.

In the following clip, if I pull my right punch back to my high guard, my left hand won't be able to extend far enough to touch my right foot.

In other words, to pull punch back to my high guard won't give my other punching hand the maximum reach. The maximum arm extension should be considered here.



In this clip at 0.13, he moves his hands back more than he does in his application. The reason is he wants to rotate his body to the maximum in solo form training.

 
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Kung Fu Wang

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If you punch like this, you will get even more arm extension than just pull punch back to your waist. This stretching your body to the maximum is important in the beginner level training.

 

isshinryuronin

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Hikite usually refers to simultaneously pulling one hand back (often to the hip) as the other hand is striking.
The original and primary purpose of this was to grab the opponent and pull him into a strike. This was a fundamental doctrine in Okinawan karate since its earliest days.
Karate Kata has quite a few grappling movements /techniques in it. I often wonder if Karate and Judo were taught within the same school then eventually separated.
It's kind of the opposite. There was grappling in early karate, before the advent of judo, and even more grabbing in conjunction with striking. However, pre WWll MA was heavily regulated in Japan and Judo had a well established unified organization. Seeking to keep Judo's claim on grappling arts intact, the powers that be removed much of this kind of technique from their karate (shotokan) curriculum to make them two distinct arts with minimum overlap.

The development of sport karate also influenced karate's modification into a more purely striking art. Okinawa kept more of its original form, though it, too, was influenced somewhat by Japan's standardization of the arts. Most kata contain grappling/grabbing techniques, though the farther evolved from their Okinawan (and Chinese) origins, the harder they are to see, existing only as remnants. Often, the returning hand remains in a fist, the grab not being visually presented.

The format of practicing chambering the fist back to the hip when drilling punches may not technically be hikite since you are not grabbing anything but has survived as this reciprocating motion does teach the body mechanics of punching and generating power. The power of one hand coming back adds power to the one going out. So it's beneficial for beginners and certainly sets up its more advanced application of grabbing and pulling one into a punch or elbow.
 
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GojuTommy

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Stephen Thompson using Hikite.

"Listen to the commentator talk about how he keeps his hands low and why it's great."

How and what a person decides to teach students doesn't always line up to what they do in fights.
Hands low doesn’t equate with hikite.
Please provide time stamps for when you think wonderboy is using hikite
 
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GojuTommy

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You aren't understanding my argument because there is none. And he doesn't make any either. How about you point out what you think his argument is and I'll respond to that.
He doesn’t understand your argument because you don’t have an argument?

I mean ok.
 
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GojuTommy

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Hikite usually refers to simultaneously pulling one hand back (often to the hip) as the other hand is striking.
The original and primary purpose of this was to grab the opponent and pull him into a strike. This was a fundamental doctrine in Okinawan karate since its earliest days.

It's kind of the opposite. There was grappling in early karate, before the advent of judo, and even more grabbing in conjunction with striking. However, pre WWll MA was heavily regulated in Japan and Judo had a well established unified organization. Seeking to keep Judo's claim on grappling arts intact, the powers that be removed much of this kind of technique from their karate (shotokan) curriculum to make them two distinct arts with minimum overlap.

The development of sport karate also influenced karate's modification into a more purely striking art. Okinawa kept more of its original form, though it, too, was influenced somewhat by Japan's standardization of the arts. Most kata contain grappling/grabbing techniques, though the farther evolved from their Okinawan (and Chinese) origins, the harder they are to see, existing only as remnants. Often, the returning hand remains in a fist, the grab not being visually presented.

The format of practicing chambering the fist back to the hip when drilling punches may not technically be hikite since you are not grabbing anything but has survived as this reciprocating motion does teach the body mechanics of punching and generating power. The power of one hand coming back adds power to the one going out. So it's beneficial for beginners and certainly sets up its more advanced application of grabbing and pulling one into a punch or elbow.
It’s funny how people who don’t know what they’re talking about love talking the most…
 

JowGaWolf

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Hands low doesn’t equate with hikite.
Please provide time stamps for when you think wonderboy is using hikite
So what is your definition of Hikite? Because if you don't see hikite as I see it then there's no point in me posting a low chambered fist that is waist level or near waist level pulled back ready to punch.
 

JowGaWolf

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Here Stephen Thompson, who represents karate in the UFC, demos the shuffle jab and does not chamber his punches.


I haven’t seen anyone chamber their punches in shadow boxing—karate, jow ga.


John Hackelman, a MMA trainer with a karate background, discusses hikite.



"Here Stephen Thompson, who represents karate in the UFC, demos the shuffle jab and does not chamber his punches."
@0:56
"Now there are a few variations of the jab that you guys have probably seen in the fight game or that I even use in my fight. you ever watched my fight, I have different jabs that I like to use for different reasons...... I like to have my hands fairly low, so my jabs seem to come up from the bottom here." - Steven Thompson

He did not say anything about his rear guard. But he did say what where he likes to throw his punches from as quoted above. Below supports what he stated. No argument about what he says. My argument isn't about him. It's about people who see one instructional video and think that is the only type of punch he does. What he shows in that step jab video does not mean he doesn't use hikite.

1702085963878.png

Picture above jabbing with the lead hand. Rear hand chambered at hip

Picture below rear hand is in high guard He get's KO'd while having a high guard.
1702086371516.png




"I haven’t seen anyone chamber their punches in shadow boxing—karate, jow ga."
My Argument isn't about the video you showed. It's about how many Jow Ga students have you seen shadow box?

Me doing a step jab drill. Take note of the the deep chamber of my left arm.
1702087307036.png


Long fist chamber during light sparring. Right hand chambered.
1702088738959.png


End Result: Upper cut lands.
1702088914259.png


Chambered at hip. Although Jow Ga does not use the term Hikite. We pull our hand back in the same manner.

1702089017424.png


Another long fist chamber. The pulling hand is not the one that is by hip. I'm actually pulling with my left hand.

1702089662375.png


End Result: Take note of my rear hand. The rear hand is down because I was pulling his hand towards my hip. There was no need to pull his hand all the way to my hip. I just needed to pull his hand enough to disrupt his balance for attack and defense. The position that you see him in is him trying to recover from that imbalance.
1702089927945.png



"John Hackelman, a MMA trainer with a karate background, discusses hikite."
I didn't get nailed when I did it.
Whonder Boy and Lyoto didn't get knocked out when they did it.
Larry Holmes didn't get knocked out when he did it.
The guy in the redit link didn't get knocked out. He actually knocked out the guy in the white shirt. The biggest reason people get knocked out while their hands are down is simply because they have it down out of habit and not because they are actually setting a technique up. Having the hand cocked back like that without a reason or purpose is a bad idea. The guy below was was waiting for the opportunity. He was hungry and had a game plan why the guy in the white shirt was talking smack.
1702090336545.png


Hikete for pulling which is the second video you posted.
Yes you can do that. I've already showed videos of martial artist doing that. It is done in Judo as well as other grappling arts. However, if you aren't grappling then you aren't pulling anything. You are using Hikite for other purposes. It's the motion of pulling the hand to that position. Does it mean that the hand will always make it fully back? Of course not. That's the reality of fighting. Not everything happens at the perfect range. Sometimes the pull is longer and sometimes it's shorter. Do you always need to pull an object? no. You only need to pull your hand back.

As for the last video. Get rid of Chambering the fists like in traditional martial arts.
Why gid rid of it? I just posted screenshots and videos (in previous posts) of people who can punch from that position. My argument: They can do what they want. I'm able to see and understand something that they don't. Why should I throw away something that I see as working? If they want to throw it away and get rid of it, then they can do that. I don't care, and they don't care if I don't throw it away.

My final say: A lot of people know Kata and Kung Fu forms but they often do not know the application of it, or they are too restrictive in their understanding.
 

JowGaWolf

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It's kind of the opposite. There was grappling in early karate, before the advent of judo, and even more grabbing in conjunction with striking.
What was the grappling system that Judo was born from? Is it possible to trace it back?
 
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