The layered bunkai theory is stupid

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GojuTommy

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hmmmm. I don't think they are being completely honest there. They are too knowledgeable to not know how to use it in a fight. My guess is that he's in marketing mode. He picked something that most people think is useless and then showed how they train. My guess is that if they are still doing Kata in the school, that they are chambering the fist. Some people get stuck on the arm chambering low without really understanding the full range of things you can do with the arm pulling back.

Here's him chambering the punch at the hip. Lyoto first threw his right and then quickly pulled his hand back. This does 2 basic thing. The first is that it allows you to send your second punch punch out ASAP. The other thing is that it doesn't give your opponent time to seize your arm because you are pulling it out of danger. This would be the most basic concept

View attachment 30367

Lyotomay have simply determine that it's easier to teach people to pull their arm back in a high guard first, becasue that is easier for beginners to grasp vs being less flexible with techniques thinking that the hand always has to return to the hip. Maybe the application of chambering at the hip is an advanced technique. Similar to how beginner boxers learn how to keep their hands up but when they hit an advance level, the learn how to safely have their hands down. Who knows?
That picture isnt him chambering his hand at his hip尖es it is roughly hip level, but it is in front of his body宇hats not his hikite works
 
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GojuTommy

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No one knows what the karate kata moves actually were intended to be. With grappling being so popular now, it appears that some of the moves might be grappling. But I agree with you in that interpretations are merely guesses and we will never know for sure what the moves are. So instead of imposing grappling and throws and certain movements upon traditonal kata, just practice those movements in and of themselves and practice kata for is historical sense since the practical can only be guessed at.
Grapplings popularity in the modern era isnt really relevant when we have books written by people who were teaching 80+ years ago talking about grappling in karate
 

bluepanther

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Grapplings popularity in the modern era isnt really relevant when we have books written by people who were teaching 80+ years ago talking about grappling in karate
Since UFC began, grappling has been reigning supreme and people look for it in every karate move. Maybe 80 years ago in 1943 some Okinawan was teaching grappling in their art but Funakoshi emphasized the striking component almost exclusively. I don't think the hidden grappling techniques meant anything to the Japanese since they had Judo, a far superior grappling system than any obscure hidden grappling.
 

JowGaWolf

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Thats not remotely true.
Again absolutely unproven pseudoscience圯ven calling it pseudoscience gives it too much legitimacy.
If I throw a 1 -2 punch combo. The sooner I pull back one arm the sooner I can send the other arm out. Play some boxing videos of people punching fast. One arm goes out while the other pulls back. Hit a speed bag. It's all the same. The sooner the arm can get back into punching readiness, the sooner the arm will be able to fire off on a punch.

When a punch is sent out the body twists in one direction and when the other punch comes out it twists in the opposite direction. Most people only train to send the punch out quickly. They don't train to bring the arm back quickly. In general there are 2 sides to a punch. The arm goes out and then it comes back. Push and Pull. Pulling the arm back after sending a punch is just as important as sending a punch out.

"Keep in mind that having speedy hands is not just about throwing punches but also about a quick recovery. When you throw a punch, the hand should return quickly so that you can punch again. So, to train muscles for speed, you need to include a plyometric style pulling exercise.

The plyometric body row consists of movements similar to those used for punching. To perform this exercise, you need to hang from a bar in a horizontal position, placing your arms in front and feet on the ground. Try pulling explosively, letting your hands come free as your chest reaches the bar. Source: EXERCISES TO IMPROVE YOUR HAND SPEED IN BOXING - MMA Factory

"Shadowboxing is the ultimate tool for learning to throw fast punches. You dont have a bag to bounce off of, a target to punch through, or any gloves to slow you down. Just throw your hands as fast as you can. And try to pull them back even faster."
Source: Boxing Drills: 5 Ways to Improve Hand Speed | Ringside Boxing

Punching by Pulling

Question. Do you ask for scientific documentation for things like:
How to Walk?
How to Jump?
How to Run?
 

JowGaWolf

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That picture isnt him chambering his hand at his hip尖es it is roughly hip level, but it is in front of his body宇hats not his hikite works
Again. You need to be more flexible about your understanding of Martial Arts techniques. If you are walking around like a rock em sock robot. Then you are going to have a lot problems with learning how to use martial arts.

There are so many ways to chamber a fist and if you only see chambering a fist or Hikite as a chamber that is specifically one where the hand is on the waist then you will fail at learning how to apply martial art.

Case in Point. ALL MARTIAL ARTS SYSTEMS SAY "To it exactly like this for the form." They do now not say "Fight like how you do your form."

If you do not learn to be more flexible about "what is or what isn't" then you'll end up frustrating yourself and you'll have very little success

Hitkite is described as "pulling hand" right. It is not named "pull hand to hip"

Don't make martial arts harder than it really is.
 

marvin8

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hmmmm. I don't think they are being completely honest there. They are too knowledgeable to not know how to use it in a fight. My guess is that he's in marketing mode. He picked something that most people think is useless and then showed how they train. My guess is that if they are still doing Kata in the school, that they are chambering the fist. Some people get stuck on the arm chambering low without really understanding the full range of things you can do with the arm pulling back.
Well if they are only saying that while you step jab do not chamber the rear hand, then they are being completely honest. Because, the opponent may counter or KO youas Teddy Atlas teaches in this video. Also, it's true that it takes longer to punch the opponent's face when chambering the rear hand.

Chambering the rear hand after it's thrown is not as risky, since the jab is used to put the opponent out of position (double weight). However, it is more defensively responsible to protect your position by using the rear hand to help control the centerline, not chamber it, in case you miss.

Here's him chambering the punch at the hip. Lyoto first threw his right and then quickly pulled his hand back. This does 2 basic thing. The first is that it allows you to send your second punch punch out ASAP. The other thing is that it doesn't give your opponent time to seize your arm because you are pulling it out of danger. This would be the most basic concept

View attachment 30367
However at 2:29, the Machidas demonstrate to jab while not chambering the rear hand which is what Lyoto Machida does in your clip.

In your clip, Machida jabs and does not chamber the rear hand, lands the rear hand on Jon Jones' face and enters the clinch by grabbing Jones' arm with his lead hand.

 

JowGaWolf

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Well if they are only saying that while you step jab do not chamber the rear hand, then they are being completely honest. Because, the opponent may counter or KO youas Teddy Atlas teaches in this video. Also, it's true that it takes longer to punch the opponent's face when chambering the rear hand.
I can see this if it's just a jab that there's no need to chamber But on combos the person should be fine with that chamber.

I also don't buy into the "takes longer to punch the face" reality too much. Coming from a circular system we are still able to land punches that take much longer than that. Punching from the hip has the advantage of traveling under the blind spot which allows for a slower punch to travel to the face and land. People get KO even while in high guard all the time, but I think it's bad for beginners because they haven't built up the skills to use a low chambered fist, which is why I never allowed students to use it unless they had the skill to get away with it.

This is a good example about the low chamber and rising jabs at work.



To be honest there could be a 20 reasons why he says what they are saying. I just know that he low chambers and he does rising jabs. This one is off the front foot.. In this match he was off a few inches.
1701661505409.png

This one he does a low chamber while sending out his reverse. These jabs land
1701661859598.png


here's another low chamber to straight punch. This one is a reverse punch
1701662397246.png



I hear what they say but it's not the same that I see in terms of them using it.
 

JowGaWolf

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However at 2:29, the Machidas demonstrate to jab while not chambering the rear hand which is what Lyoto Machida does in your clip.
My definition of a chambered hand is one that is in the ready state for punching (for striking) or the end position for pulling (for grappling). If you think of punches as Fire (punch), Reloading (process of bring the arm to a ready state, Reloaded (Ready to punch). Then any arm that is in a "ready to punch" state is chambered. In training we chamber our arms by pulling the arm way back. This is a Range of Motion conditioning, which makes the arm better at pulling the hand back after each punch. The best way I can think of it the picture below. When you want to strengthen this movement do you pull your hand back as far as you can or do you only pull it back to the fighting position. In fighting application, how far that elbow goes back varies but in training. Using the full range of motion is the better option. So in the forms and one man drills the movement is often times longer than what will be in fighting. In Kung Fu it is often said to train large to become smaller. So in training our motions are often larger in the range of motion than what we would use in application. Sometimes it happens in fighting but it's not something should be a "always do" type of thing. Like most things with fighting techniques it's a "Do as needed" Strengthing the full range of motion also includes pulling motions be it pulling someone to me or pulling someone downward, even if in application I may not use the full range of motion all the time.

This is how I understand the concept of the chambered fist and why it's pulled back so far in training. Hikite would fall in this same definition, where if I'm training to grab and pull someone, then I want to train the full range of motion. From out stretched hand to pulling that elbow into chamber. My definition of chamber is more flexible. If I put a ball in my hand and pull back to that position then I'm still chambering. If I grab a Gi and pull back to that position then I'm still chambering. For me chambering can be

I already know that my understanding of it is not the same as others who have a more limited definition. "pulling hand" to me doesn't sound specific. When you pull your hand towards your body, then that's the shape the arm makes regardless of what one is doing.

I just thought it necessary to share how I see it vs trying to position something as "Right or wrong"

1701664873178.png
 

Kung Fu Wang

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beginners interpretations are often taught to simply mimic the movement from kata, including chambering an empty hikite, which plays no role in fighting in any sense, and which only builds bad habits, and harms the students ability to effectively apply a technique.
There is an important MA principle that your left arm, back, right arm are integrated as "1 arm". When you punch out your right arm, your left arm pulls back.

This training may not have any combat meaning, but it's the "1 arm" principle that all MA people are trying to develop.

After you have passed that beginner level training, you can put your back hand in front of your chest if you want to.

1_arm.jpg

1_arm_1.jpg
 
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marvin8

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There is an important MA principle that your left arm, back, right arm are integrated as "1 arm". When you punch out your right arm, your left arm pulls back.

This training may not have any combat meaning, but it's the "1 arm" principle that all MA people are trying to develop.

After you have passed that beginner level training, you can put your back hand in front of your chest if you want to.

View attachment 30389
View attachment 30390
I don't believe it's only a matter of pulling your hand back. Use your whole body by transferring your weight into the punch is also important:


A few nuanced thoughts on Hikite! To be honest, the endless debate around whether it adds power or not to the other hand (it does not) is one that now thoroughly bores me. Hikite has genuine practical uses in close-range combat. The discounting of these practical purposes in favour of demonstrably false power generation arguments both saddens and frustrates me because it is bad for karate.

Those who get it, get it. Those who dont, dont want to (willingly trapped in pseudo-traditional sensei says dogma). However, there remains a few nuances around hikite that I feel it could be useful to highlight:

1) The idea that you pull the enemy onto the strike and hence double the impact (like a head-on crash) is widespread, but there are some problems with that idea. In the video, I explain why it does not work in practise.

2) The hikite often pulls far less than many suppose. The problem is that many measure how far the hand moves relative to themselves; whereas it is more useful to measure its actual movement in space. This is explained and demonstrated in the video.

3) As a last-ditch attempt to justify an empty hand being pulled to the hip in combat, some reinvent what hikite is and try to argue from there. In particular, they liken it to folding an inactive arm into a guard. Whist these are very different practises, even then it fails because when punching correctly i.e. ensuring maximum active mass the guard is NOT pulled backward in space. Again, this is explained and demonstrated in the video.

The video concludes with a brief recap of why the classic (but not traditional) idea of hikite for power generation fails, as well as looking at where this false notion comes from.

As I say in the video, I have zero interest in responding to the same old tired arguments around hikite allegedly being for power generation. If people are genuinely convinced it adds power to punches, then there should be no problem showing that in practise. Film and upload a video showing how hard you can hit with that method. Should be simple enough, right? Those who hold similar views to me can then see the amount of power it actually adds as opposed to engaging in endless theoretical debates. To date, not a single person has stepped up and shown the method in action when I have asked (which would seem to be very telling in itself). So, if you do try to argue hikite is for power generation in the comments, know in advance I am simply going to refer you to this text and post, Show me: hit some impact equipment with the method and film it so we can see how much power it adds in practise. No more theorising. Practical demonstration please. Surely, thats the best way to convince me of my alleged folly :)

All the best, Iain

 
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JowGaWolf

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I don't believe it's only a matter of pulling your hand back. Use your whole body by transferring your weight into the punch is also important:


A few nuanced thoughts on Hikite! To be honest, the endless debate around whether it adds power or not to the other hand (it does not) is one that now thoroughly bores me. Hikite has genuine practical uses in close-range combat. The discounting of these practical purposes in favour of demonstrably false power generation arguments both saddens and frustrates me because it is bad for karate.

Those who get it, get it. Those who dont, dont want to (willingly trapped in pseudo-traditional sensei says dogma). However, there remains a few nuances around hikite that I feel it could be useful to highlight:

1) The idea that you pull the enemy onto the strike and hence double the impact (like a head-on crash) is widespread, but there are some problems with that idea. In the video, I explain why it does not work in practise.

2) The hikite often pulls far less than many suppose. The problem is that many measure how far the hand moves relative to themselves; whereas it is more useful to measure its actual movement in space. This is explained and demonstrated in the video.

3) As a last-ditch attempt to justify an empty hand being pulled to the hip in combat, some reinvent what hikite is and try to argue from there. In particular, they liken it to folding an inactive arm into a guard. Whist these are very different practises, even then it fails because when punching correctly i.e. ensuring maximum active mass the guard is NOT pulled backward in space. Again, this is explained and demonstrated in the video.

The video concludes with a brief recap of why the classic (but not traditional) idea of hikite for power generation fails, as well as looking at where this false notion comes from.

As I say in the video, I have zero interest in responding to the same old tired arguments around hikite allegedly being for power generation. If people are genuinely convinced it adds power to punches, then there should be no problem showing that in practise. Film and upload a video showing how hard you can hit with that method. Should be simple enough, right? Those who hold similar views to me can then see the amount of power it actually adds as opposed to engaging in endless theoretical debates. To date, not a single person has stepped up and shown the method in action when I have asked (which would seem to be very telling in itself). So, if you do try to argue hikite is for power generation in the comments, know in advance I am simply going to refer you to this text and post, Show me: hit some impact equipment with the method and film it so we can see how much power it adds in practise. No more theorising. Practical demonstration please. Surely, thats the best way to convince me of my alleged folly :)

All the best, Iain

I saw the power debate and was confused about the hyper focus on using it for power. I definitely don't train it for the purpose of power.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Show me: hit some impact equipment with the method and film it so we can see how much power it adds in practise. No more theorising.
I have tested this on my heavy bag. If I can extend my left arm forward as far as I can and pull my right hand back, I can punch harder when I punch out my right hand. It's compress and release. The more I can compress, the more I can release.

I don't have a video yet. But my heavy bag punch is like this.



Both Chen Taiji and Baji use the same principle.


 

JowGaWolf

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I have tested this on my heavy bag.
I train the method on a heavy bag with no gloves and people joke about me punching the bag out of the window. I use it on a 1-2 straight punch combo.

It's different power than when the bag jumps. Normally I don't want the bag to swing but with this punch the bag moves alot. It more like ramming power than punching power. I also train it so the bag doesn't move as much. I'll have to record a full video to get a better idea of whats happening to the bag. The only thing I know for sure is that I put dents in the heavy bag and my 1-2 punch combo lands as the bag is moving away. In practical fighting I want to hit my opponent as he stumbles backwards in an effort to recover.

At this point in my training I probably should be punching a firmer bag.
 

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One of my favorite video games ever: Punch-Out back on the NES.

In retrospect only, much like Street Fighter II, the game has been criticized for portraying ethnic stereotypes.

For example, Glass Joe is French and is portrayed as weak and cowardly. Von Kaiser is German and is ostensibly a Nazi. Don Flamenco is a Spaniard, and does a little Spanish dance before delivering an uppercut, and is portrayed as effeminate and vain about his looks/critical of other men's looks (that's apparently the Japanese view of Spaniards, not so much in the US. We see this again of Vega in Street Fighter, a game published by a totally different developer), and then there's the Great Tiger - an Indian who can perform magic.

And now we get to Piston Honda - the Japanese character. His special move where he backs up, tiptoes around, and comes back at you with the left, right, left, right? There's a hikite with each punch. I think that's supposed to be part of his Japanese stereotype. None of the other characters do this.

Piston Honda.jpg
 
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JowGaWolf

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I have tested this on my heavy bag. If I can extend my left arm forward as far as I can and pull my right hand back, I can punch harder when I punch out my right hand. It's compress and release. The more I can compress, the more I can release.

I don't have a video yet. But my heavy bag punch is like this.



Both Chen Taiji and Baji use the same principle.


That third clip shows an example of a pulling hand. The hand is open and you can him simulate the grab and pull. I see the same with some Japanese examples but not all. Grabs and punches are made cleat as yo which one is being done in a system. If the hand doesn't grab when the arm is pulled back then it's not a jab. This is the same that I saw in that 1928 video that I posted. Some hikite we grabs but others weren't. The grab motion is not some random action. If the Japanese master didn't grab when doing Hikite then it means he wasn't grabbing.
 
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GojuTommy

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Again. You need to be more flexible about your understanding of Martial Arts techniques. If you are walking around like a rock em sock robot. Then you are going to have a lot problems with learning how to use martial arts.

There are so many ways to chamber a fist and if you only see chambering a fist or Hikite as a chamber that is specifically one where the hand is on the waist then you will fail at learning how to apply martial art.

Case in Point. ALL MARTIAL ARTS SYSTEMS SAY "To it exactly like this for the form." They do now not say "Fight like how you do your form."

If you do not learn to be more flexible about "what is or what isn't" then you'll end up frustrating yourself and you'll have very little success

Hitkite is described as "pulling hand" right. It is not named "pull hand to hip"

Don't make martial arts harder than it really is.
Youre right if we ignore everything about a technique anything can be anything.
I see Ive reached martial arts nirvana now. Thank you for opening my eyes.
 
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GojuTommy

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Since UFC began, grappling has been reigning supreme and people look for it in every karate move. Maybe 80 years ago in 1943 some Okinawan was teaching grappling in their art but Funakoshi emphasized the striking component almost exclusively. I don't think the hidden grappling techniques meant anything to the Japanese since they had Judo, a far superior grappling system than any obscure hidden grappling.
Yes fuckakoshi stopped teaching grappling, all the other original styles kept teaching it
 

JowGaWolf

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Well if they are only saying that while you step jab do not chamber the rear hand, then they are being completely honest. Because, the opponent may counter or KO youas Teddy Atlas teaches in this video. Also, it's true that it takes longer to punch the opponent's face when chambering the rear hand.

Chambering the rear hand after it's thrown is not as risky, since the jab is used to put the opponent out of position (double weight). However, it is more defensively responsible to protect your position by using the rear hand to help control the centerline, not chamber it, in case you miss.


However at 2:29, the Machidas demonstrate to jab while not chambering the rear hand which is what Lyoto Machida does in your clip.

In your clip, Machida jabs and does not chamber the rear hand, lands the rear hand on Jon Jones' face and enters the clinch by grabbing Jones' arm with his lead hand.

This post confused me I was trying to figure out what you were looking at. You have to play the video in slow motion or you'll miss it. He chambers at the beginning of the second extension of the right arm. That's where the hikite is pulling the hand back.
 

JowGaWolf

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Youre right if we ignore everything about a technique anything can be anything.
I see Ive reached martial arts nirvana now. Thank you for opening my eyes.
Nope there are specific names and general names. Everything does have a specific name. For example front kick, knee, punch, guard, back fist, parry, pull hand.

These terms didn't make "anything can be anything." It's not nirvana it's what we do. We give general names all the time.

Hikite translation = Pull hand. It doesn't mean pull arm with hand, pull leg with hand, pull gi with hand, pull sleeve with hand, pull guard with hand..
 
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