The layered bunkai theory is stupid

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GojuTommy

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Stick your hand in a fire and let me know if you pull your hand out of the fire.
Hold your hand out on a table and tell someone to try to smash it. Let me know if you pull your hand away.
I guess he didn't pull his hand back fast enough.

Lets see how the rest of the world sees it? Yep same terminology

The thing that is being pulled is the hand. You don't have to have anything in your hand in order to pull your hand back. Again stop making things more difficult than they need to be.

If you are correct then pulling hand doesn't exist when both opponent don't have a shirt on. Stop making things more complicated than it needs to be. That's why things seem useless for you.
Withdrawing a hand doesnt mean youre pulling something.
 
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GojuTommy

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During the

- beginner level training, you may want to chamber your back hand.
- advance level training, you may want to put your back hand next to the elbow joint of your punching arm. This way you can apply the "switch hands" principle.

For example, when you through a right punch and your opponent blocks, you may use your left hand to take over his blocking arm and allow your right hand to continue your punch. If you chamber your back hand, your back hand will be too far away to do the "switch hands".
Chambering an empty hand is stupid, and pointless, its just creating bad habits.

Are there scenarios where such a movement can be useful? Sure, but you have to actually teach people what youre doing and why youre doing it.
 
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GojuTommy

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First, It's not me. I never gave an opinion. It's the Machidas and Teddy Atlas. They explain their position and demonstrate it. Also, most if not all striking coaches in combat sports will tell you not to chamber your rear hand when training the jab.

I'll ask again. If you have a valid argument, please post it. Because, it's not clear what you're trying to say. Other karate stylists may have a valid argument. Or they may say, "No. Sometimes we practice the jab without hikite."
He doesnt know what hes talking about.
His point is the same stupid point that Kung fu and karate people with no real world experience have.
 

JowGaWolf

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First, It's not me. I never gave an opinion. It's the Machidas and Teddy Atlas. They explain their position and demonstrate it. Also, most if not all striking coaches in combat sports will tell you not to chamber your rear hand when training the jab.

I'll ask again. If you have a valid argument, please post it. Because, it's not clear what you're trying to say. Other karate stylists may have a valid argument. Or they may say, "No. Sometimes we practice the jab without hikite."
I've already said it. It's OK to chamber the rear hand but it's an advance technique. In terms of training. Let hands up be the habit and chambered fist be the trained response. Those who make it a habit tend not to determine when it should be chambered low and whe n it should be high.

In forms and kata it's OK to train as the student who advances enough through sparring will learn ot to apply. Those who get punched in the face because of it are more than likely sparring with it due to habit and not purposeful use.

Larry Holmes used it to set up his power punch.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Chambering an empty hand is stupid, and pointless, its just creating bad habits.
If a beginner always punches his fist from his head guard, will he be able to learn how to twist his body when punch? If a beginner just punches his arm without body rotation, is that bad habits?

IMO, a punch that come from a trained MA guy and a punch that come from a non-trained MA guy is one knows how to coordinate his body with his punch, the other doesn't.

The chambering is only the beginner level training.
 

JowGaWolf

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Withdrawing a hand doesnt mean youre pulling something.
yeah it means you are pulling your hand back. Its the same as it means when some one says "pull your leg back after you kick"

Withdrawing is probably too general since I don't have to pull to withdraw




Chambering an empty hand is stupid, and pointless, its just creating bad habits.

Are there scenarios where such a movement can be useful? Sure, but you have to actually teach people what youre doing and why youre doing it.
That's why it's should be seen as an advance technique when used in striking.

The video of Mike Tyson knocking someone is an example of a fighter who was trying to break habit of leaving the rear hand down. Hands up should be the default position. Having the fist chambered like that should be done for a specific purpose. But the risks have to be understood and the person has to be aware of where they are open. So adjustments in movement can be made to prevent the opening from being exploited.
 

marvin8

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yeah it means you are pulling your hand back. Its the same as it means when some one says "pull your leg back after you kick"

Withdrawing is probably too general since I don't have to pull to withdraw

That's why it's should be seen as an advance technique when used in striking.
Pulling your hand back to where, to the waist or to the guard position (rhetorical)? That was the argument on hikite.

I will post later on some concepts on where your hands should be in relation to your opponent. Fighting is dynamic. When you throw a punch, you're open don't pose. You should be either defending or offending. For every action, there is a reaction from your opponent.

The video of Mike Tyson knocking someone is an example of a fighter who was trying to break habit of leaving the rear hand down. Hands up should be the default position. Having the fist chambered like that should be done for a specific purpose. But the risks have to be understood and the person has to be aware of where they are open. So adjustments in movement can be made to prevent the opening from being exploited.
Williams didn't drop his hand as much as I thought, the way Atlas was talking. Part of it is Tyson slipped so low that Williams was attempting to throw an uppercut. So, he dropped his hand a little more.
 
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JowGaWolf

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If a beginner always punches his fist from his head guard, will he be able to learn how to twist his body when punch? If a beginner just punches his arm without body rotation, is that bad habits?
This is probably an intermediate/advanced skill technique. You would be shocked at how many have trouble with this. Pivot on ball of foot is easier for people to do, than to twist body.
twist body.
 

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If a beginner always punches his fist from his head guard, will he be able to learn how to twist his body when punch?
Of course. It's how I teach. It's not particularly difficult to get good body rotation punching from a high guard.
If a beginner just punches his arm without body rotation, is that bad habits?
I'd say so.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Of course. It's how I teach. It's not particularly difficult to get good body rotation punching from a high guard.
Is it a good idea to start a beginner from the intermediate level training? The PRO is you can reduce his training time. The CON is you may not help him to build strong foundation.

When I punch from

- high guard, I don't have to think about my waist rotation.
- waist, I have to think about my waist rotation.

For example, when I train a beginner's front kick, I will ask him to use his left hand to pull his right wrist to his left waist when he kicks out his right leg. The hand movement only force his body to rotate to his left when he throws a right kick. This require will no longer be needed after a student has passed the beginner level training stage.

In the following beginner level training clip, his straight back arm has nothing to do with combat. It's just a basic training to make sure the front fist, front shoulder, back shoulder all makes a perfect straight line.



At 0.22 and 0.27, he pulls his back arm back so his body can be stretched to the maximum. Again, his back hand has no combat value but training value.

 
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JowGaWolf

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Pulling your hand back to where, to the waist or to the guard position (rhetorical)? That was the argument on hikite.

I will post later on some concepts on where your hands should be in relation to your opponent. Fighting is dynamic. When you throw a punch, you're open don't pose. You should be either defending or offending. For every action, there is a reaction from your opponent.


Williams didn't drop his hand as much as I thought, the way Atlas was talking. Part of it is Tyson slipped so low that Williams was attempting to throw an uppercut. So, he dropped his hand a little more.
Upper cuts require the hands to drop low but it looked like he took a bow into the punch while doing it. Probably multiple things went wrong at the right moment.
 

JowGaWolf

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For example, when I train a beginner's front kick, I will ask him to use his left hand to pull his right wrist to his left waist when he kicks out his right leg
Front kick? Is that A Typo? What type of front kick?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Front kick? Is that A Typo? What type of front kick?
Both front heel kick and front toes push kick. The hand pulling make right shoulder to face forward when throw a right front kick. In other words, when you throw your right front kick, you want to make sure that your

- right foot,
- right shoulder, and
- left shoulder

all make a perfect straight line.

At 0.18-0.19, his right hand pulls his left wrist to his right waist when he kicks out his left foot.

 
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JowGaWolf

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s it a good idea to start a beginner from the intermediate level training? The PRO is you can reduce his training time. The CON is you may not help him to build strong foundation
I taught all linear strikes with hands up. The circular strikes were different because of the circular techniques where hands up will degrade the strike and is riskier.

I think it's different for us because we are long fist practioners. Circular punches require good waist twist. It's not enough to just pivot on the ball of the foot or to just use the hips.
 

JowGaWolf

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Both front heel kick and front toes push kick. The hand pulling make right shoulder to face forward when throw a right front kick. In other words, when you throw your right front kick, you want to make sure that your

- right foot,
- right shoulder, and
- left shoulder

all make a perfect straight line.

At 0.19, his right hand pulls his left wrist to his right waist when he kicks out his left foot.

Ok I know which kick you are talking about. I don't us that one as often
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I taught all linear strikes with hands up.
Should we train as we fight? I believe after one has developed the basic foundation, to kill 2 birds with 1 stone is a good idea.

Many people in China criticized Adam Hsu's students foot stomping on the ground. They think that foot stomping has no combat value. Adam told me the foot stomping is a necessary basic power generation training for the Baji system. He just doesn't see any reason to ignore and bypass that training.



In this clip, his hand touches on his foot. This move has no combat meaning. If you skip this training for your students, your student's flexibility may not be fully developed.

 
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GojuTommy

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If a beginner always punches his fist from his head guard, will he be able to learn how to twist his body when punch? If a beginner just punches his arm without body rotation, is that bad habits?

IMO, a punch that come from a trained MA guy and a punch that come from a non-trained MA guy is one knows how to coordinate his body with his punch, the other doesn't.

The chambering is only the beginner level training.
存omehow they manage to learn how to punch without chambering in boxing, MT, KB
 

JowGaWolf

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存omehow they manage to learn how to punch without chambering in boxing, MT, KB
Simple, everyone doesn't train the same way.
存omehow they manage to learn how to punch without chambering in boxing, MT, KB存ew 7th
Only because I've trained with boxers who were interested in kung fu. They were very stiff in their movement and had a very difficult time doing the twisting that was used in Jow Ga kung fu.

Only one boxer out of 3 stayed. I think the twisting that we all get good at is specific to what we train. I don't think any of us believe that the twisting that a golfer does is applicable to the swing that a baseball player or a cricket player does. I don't see baseball players claim that they can be great golfers because they can generate a lot of power from their method of twisting.

I think that being able to generate power from the waist in one fighting system doesn"t mean that we will be good in generating power in another system. I think the 2 boxers that quit were frustrated because their skill set didn't transfer over as easily as they hope. They had a difficult time with getting the body to do what the brain was asking, which is common for learning new movement. The most benefit that I've seen from previous knowledge of how to generate power from twisting is that you have a better idea of what you are trying to achieve than someone who has never done it. In theory it should make the learning process shorter.

My stance is not tall like Muay Thai so I know I should have difficulty with twisting in that high stance. To be honest it's probably something I should start training.
 
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marvin8

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If a beginner always punches his fist from his head guard, will he be able to learn how to twist his body when punch?
Yes, beginners in MAs and combat sports do.

Should we train as we fight? I believe after one has developed the basic foundation, to kill 2 birds with 1 stone is a good idea.
Yes. When you train striking, (drills, shadow boxing), you should be aware of defense (and offense/speed, economy of motion) and not chamber your punches. Instead, bring your hand to guard position. like in man sau (asking hand).


Many people in China criticized Adam Hsu's students foot stomping on the ground. They think that foot stomping has no combat value. Adam told me the foot stomping is a necessary basic power generation training for the Baji system. He just doesn't see any reason to ignore and bypass that training.

This lifting of the leg, stomping, then stepping and stomping to deliver a lead hand punch should be easily countered. And, I have never seen a baji person use this type of stomping and stepping in sparring, "Train as we fight."
 

marvin8

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Here Stephen Thompson, who represents karate in the UFC, demos the shuffle jab and does not chamber his punches.


I havent seen anyone chamber their punches in shadow boxingkarate, jow ga.


John Hackelman, a MMA trainer with a karate background, discusses hikite.



 
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