The layered bunkai theory is stupid

marvin8

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This post confused me I was trying to figure out what you were looking at. You have to play the video in slow motion or you'll miss it. He chambers at the beginning of the second extension of the right arm. That's where the hikite is pulling the hand back.
When Lyoto throws the right step jab, he does not chamber his left rear hand (as demoed). Chambering the rear hand when throwing the step jab is a fundamental error, as taught by Atlas and combat sports that include striking:


 

JowGaWolf

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When Lyoto throws the right step jab, he does not chamber his left rear hand (as demoed). Chambering the rear hand when throwing the step jab is a fundamental error, as taught by Atlas and combat sports that include striking:


I'll have to take a look because I thought he was seeking to grab the rear hand. He has this thing where he grabs and moves the guard

He normally does it on his opponent's lead hand. But he always does it using his lead hand and this is what we were seeing. My guess is that he was trying to trick is opponent by moving the rear guard instead of the front guard.

After he goes for rear guard he throws a 1-2 combo. I'll look again when I get home to see if his hand is open. Either way I took a screen shot of where he has a deeper chamber
 

JowGaWolf

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Chambering the rear hand when throwing the step jab is a fundamental error,
I'm pretty sure traditional karate doesn't deep chamber on their jabs. I know the do it with the straight punch. Like with a thrust punch. Which is a heavier pinch than a jab.

But the jab is a different punch than the punches that use a deep chamber. To me it's like pointing out that a front kick dies kick backwards. I'm pretty sure in that video they made, they were talking about reverse punches
 

marvin8

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I'll have to take a look because I thought he was seeking to grab the rear hand. He has this thing where he grabs and moves the guard

He normally does it on his opponent's lead hand. But he always does it using his lead hand and this is what we were seeing. My guess is that he was trying to trick is opponent by moving the rear guard instead of the front guard.

After he goes for rear guard he throws a 1-2 combo. I'll look again when I get home to see if his hand is open. Either way I took a screen shot of where he has a deeper chamber
You may be well-intended. However, one can say they are only demoing the guiding principle when throwing the step jab don't chamber your rear hand because "you'll get hurt." They do not say don't use a rising jab, don't grab the guard, etc.

It's important to know the guiding principles. However, it's also important to know when you can break them (Tony's post #16). You can break this guiding principle to lure the opponent to strike your opening, then defend and counter.
 

marvin8

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I'm pretty sure traditional karate doesn't deep chamber on their jabs. I know the do it with the straight punch. Like with a thrust punch. Which is a heavier pinch than a jab.

But the jab is a different punch than the punches that use a deep chamber. To me it's like pointing out that a front kick dies kick backwards. I'm pretty sure in that video they made, they were talking about reverse punches
Kizami-zuki - Jab punch:

 

JowGaWolf

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Kizami-zuki - Jab punch:

I thought you were talking about a deep chamber in the lead hand. Not the rear hand. The rear hand position is fine, but like I was saying before I don't think it's a beginner technique. This goes back to the following
1. pulling back on one arm helping the pushing on the other. In the video you can see him quick pump that "hikite" as he sends his jab out.
2. Hand being in the ready position. So as that lead jab comes back the rear hand is already in a ready position to punch. There's no need to pull the rear hand back then punch. He just has to punch because the rear hand is ready to punch. (1:08) shows this.

1701817659892.png


Step Jab here rear hand pulled back. This time he drops his jab hand takes a pause but leaves his rear hand ready and punches with it. T.
1701818301356.png





This clip lines up with my theory about it being an advanced technique. Here the speaker says that it's an advanced technique. Which follows what I see when people use it. Beginners and Intermediates get eaten alive when that rear hand is low. Top rank fighters often do not and they are often able to fight that way without much risk.



In terms of Kizami-zuki - Jab punch: I think a lot of schools have changed it for point sparring. The older videos that show this do not jump around. It is a heavier punch like I was describing earlier. I personally don't like how point sparring is these days. A lot of stuff that people think are useless today can be seen working in old karate videos.. To be honest a lot of my kung fu is useless for point sparring.

1701819516216.png






Excellent pull hand +strike technique here
 

JowGaWolf

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Another good one. I think there are some clips of challenge fights in here. The way they hold their mouths like a baby make me think they didn't use mouth pieces either lol. Weight class? What's that? Big vs Small.
 

marvin8

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I thought you were talking about a deep chamber in the lead hand. Not the rear hand. The rear hand position is fine, but like I was saying before I don't think it's a beginner technique.
No. Both the Machida Academy and Teddy Atlas talk about and teach not to chamber the rear hand, when throwing the stepping jab (Kizami-zuki), as a guiding principle. Any other argument is a straw man.
 
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GojuTommy

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Nope there are specific names and general names. Everything does have a specific name. For example front kick, knee, punch, guard, back fist, parry, pull hand.

These terms didn't make "anything can be anything." It's not nirvana it's what we do. We give general names all the time.

Hikite translation = Pull hand. It doesn't mean pull arm with hand, pull leg with hand, pull gi with hand, pull sleeve with hand, pull guard with hand..
Lmao, its pulling hand.
To pull, there must be a thing being pulled.
 

JowGaWolf

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No. Both the Machida Academy and Teddy Atlas talk about and teach not to chamber the rear hand, when throwing the stepping jab (Kizami-zuki), as a guiding principle. Any other argument is a straw man.
It's not a straw man if they do it themselves. right. What they decide to not to teach doesn't invalidate the technique, which is why I showed boxers and other martial artist doing the same thing.

There seems to be this assumption that because they say that they don't teach it and not to do it meants that the technique is some how not valid. I've already mentioned that I believe the chambering i an advance technique which is why you only see people of high skill being successful with it.

So what will you say if I find a video of them using it?
 

JowGaWolf

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Lmao, its pulling hand.
To pull, there must be a thing being pulled.
Stick your hand in a fire and let me know if you pull your hand out of the fire.
Hold your hand out on a table and tell someone to try to smash it. Let me know if you pull your hand away.
I guess he didn't pull his hand back fast enough.

Lets see how the rest of the world sees it? Yep same terminology

The thing that is being pulled is the hand. You don't have to have anything in your hand in order to pull your hand back. Again stop making things more difficult than they need to be.

If you are correct then pulling hand doesn't exist when both opponent don't have a shirt on. Stop making things more complicated than it needs to be. That's why things seem useless for you.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Well if they are only saying that while you step jab do not chamber the rear hand, then they are being completely honest. Because, the opponent may counter or KO youas Teddy Atlas teaches in this video. Also, it's true that it takes longer to punch the opponent's face when chambering the rear hand.

Chambering the rear hand after it's thrown is not as risky, since the jab is used to put the opponent out of position (double weight). However, it is more defensively responsible to protect your position by using the rear hand to help control the centerline, not chamber it, in case you miss.


However at 2:29, the Machidas demonstrate to jab while not chambering the rear hand which is what Lyoto Machida does in your clip.

In your clip, Machida jabs and does not chamber the rear hand, lands the rear hand on Jon Jones' face and enters the clinch by grabbing Jones' arm with his lead hand.

I went back and took a look at the video. What you though was a step jab was actually him trying to grab to grab the arm. You can actually see his thumb poking up. It also doesn't make sense to try to punch someone from this distance but he's at the right distance for grabbing that wrist. The only reason he didn't get his wrist is because Jon Jones opened his guard. If you play it in slow motion your can actually see his thumb from the moment he begins to extends towards the glove. Step jabs cover distances, but they work better against a short guard.

Had he actually did a step jab Jon Jones would have probably have poked him in his eye.

1701835802414.png
 

JowGaWolf

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You may be well-intended. However, one can say they are only demoing the guiding principle when throwing the step jab don't chamber your rear hand because "you'll get hurt." They do not say don't use a rising jab, don't grab the guard, etc.
yet I showed you a top rank professional boxer doing it, landing it and not getting hurt. Then I showed you a skilled martial artist doing it and he Knocked out his guy.

As far as getting hurt you can still get hurt even if your guard is up.


 

Kung Fu Wang

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My issue is that the beginners interpretations are often taught to simply mimic the movement from kata, including chambering an empty hikite, which plays no role in fighting in any sense, and which only builds bad habits, and harms the students ability to effectively apply a technique.
During the

- beginner level training, you may want to chamber your back hand.
- advance level training, you may want to put your back hand next to the elbow joint of your punching arm. This way you can apply the "switch hands" principle.

For example, when you through a right punch and your opponent blocks, you may use your left hand to take over his blocking arm and allow your right hand to continue your punch. If you chamber your back hand, your back hand will be too far away to do the "switch hands".
 

marvin8

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It's not a straw man if they do it themselves. right. What they decide to not to teach doesn't invalidate the technique, which is why I showed boxers and other martial artist doing the same thing.

There seems to be this assumption that because they say that they don't teach it and not to do it meants that the technique is some how not valid.

I've already mentioned that I believe the chambering i an advance technique which is why you only see people of high skill being successful with it.

So what will you say if I find a video of them using it?
You would have to find them chambering their fist to their waist as the Machidas show in their demo. Even then, you would still be arguing a straw man. Because again,

It's important to know the guiding principles. However, it's also important to know when you can break them (Tony's post #16). You can break this guiding principle to lure the opponent to strike your opening, then defend and counter.
If you have a valid argument, please post it. Such as, "When training the step jab, you should practice hikite because you will not get 'hurt' or 'knocked out.'"

Here's the fight Atlas mentions, Mike Tyson VS Carl Williams...

 

marvin8

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I went back and took a look at the video. What you though was a step jab was actually him trying to grab to grab the arm. You can actually see his thumb poking up. It also doesn't make sense to try to punch someone from this distance but he's at the right distance for grabbing that wrist. The only reason he didn't get his wrist is because Jon Jones opened his guard. If you play it in slow motion your can actually see his thumb from the moment he begins to extends towards the glove. Step jabs cover distances, but they work better against a short guard.

Had he actually did a step jab Jon Jones would have probably have poked him in his eye.

View attachment 30406
No, I viewed the frames. Lyoto step jabs. As Lyotos lead hand extends, Jon reaches with his arms and lowers them to control and make contact. As Jons arms come down, Lyoto retracts his jab and throws a rear overhand. Jon shifts his weight to the back foot to avoid Lytotos overhand. Lyotos overhand lands on Jons face. As Jon continues to move back, Lyoto moves forward and clinches.
 

JowGaWolf

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No, I viewed the frames. Lyoto step jabs. As Lyotos lead hand extends, Jon reaches with his arms and lowers them to control and make contact. As Jons arms come down, Lyoto retracts his jab and throws a rear overhand. Jon shifts his weight to the back foot to avoid Lytotos overhand. Lyotos overhand lands on Jons face. As Jon continues to move back, Lyoto moves forward and clinches.
Why would Lyoto throw a jab that far out? He's clearly out of range even for a step jab, unless he's planning to use that step jab found in point sparring. Jon Jones likes to use a long guard so trying to jab without removing the long guard is just a waste. Especially when your opponent has a longer reach.
 

marvin8

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Why would Lyoto throw a jab that far out? He's clearly out of range even for a step jab, unless he's planning to use that step jab found in point sparring. Jon Jones likes to use a long guard so trying to jab without removing the long guard is just a waste. Especially when your opponent has a longer reach.
To control the centerline and cause Jon to extend his arm(s). Lyoto likely knew Jon has a habit of extending his arms. So, he lures Jon to extend his arms, then counters over the top with a rear overhand (attack by combination). This is a common combination counter. The jab draws a jab from the opponent, counter with the cross.
 

JowGaWolf

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Such as, "When training the step jab, you should practice hikite because you will not get 'hurt' or 'knocked out.'
Do you say this about keeping your hands up or about any defense or offense? I don't know anyone who spars or fight who would say that there is a technique to prevent from being knocked out or hurt.
 

marvin8

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If you have a valid argument, please post it. Such as, "When training the step jab, you should practice hikite because you will not get 'hurt' or 'knocked out.'"
Do you say this about keeping your hands up or about any defense or offense? I don't know anyone who spars or fight who would say that there is a technique to prevent from being knocked out or hurt.
First, It's not me. I never gave an opinion. It's the Machidas and Teddy Atlas. They explain their position and demonstrate it. Also, most if not all striking coaches in combat sports will tell you not to chamber your rear hand when training the jab.

I'll ask again. If you have a valid argument, please post it. Because, it's not clear what you're trying to say. Other karate stylists may have a valid argument. Or they may say, "No. Sometimes we practice the jab without hikite."
 
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