The Guard in self defense?

[Hanzou]

Well, choking an attacker out might be one way of escaping to stand up fight, and/or run away-

I mean, what is the person in that situation going to do, as reasonable and prudent self-defense, after choking someone out? Get up off the ground.

Well choking or breaking a limb from guard would be fighting from guard.

I'd call that a "situation," not a "situational go-to." Kinda like having a knife held to your throat with your back against the wall-"back against the wall" isn't a "go-to" (thhough it can be) but there you are anyway,.

_[/quote]

Well what if you're exceptionally good in guard? For someone like that, I could imagine that the guard would be a go-to for fighting in general.

That's a little different, but okay.....

How?

 

[Buka]

So my questions are as follows; What is the Guard's place in self defense? Is the Guard a dominant, inferior, or neutral position? Should people learn to fight from Guard, or better utilize their training time elsewhere?

So - would I be right in thinking that the first purpose of the guard would be, - while on the ground, to prevent the opponent from mounting you or gaining any other superior position?

Yes indeed.

My answer to the first question of the OP, "the Guard's place in self defense" would be a defensive haven to start. Then, if there's anything offensive in your guard game, be it submissions, escape or striking, one or all would follow. (hopefully)

As to the Guard as a "dominant, inferior or neutral position" I'd say neutral to start.

As to "should people learn to fight from the guard or better utilize their training time elsewhere", I dunno, that would be up to the person. I never would have if it hadn't been taught to me in the way it was. I loved it from the start because I was always ending up on the bottom. Utilizing training time depends on who's training you and in what. I think so, anyway.

And as to the guard keeping someone from mounting me in any way - I'm all for that. It's not easy being a lightweight. Especially an old lightweight. And the older I get it seems that people (general population) keep getting a little bit bigger.

 

[elder999]

How?

I can't find any videos of Akban "pulling guard," but I'm willing to bet it's not exactly what it appears to be- given their......eclecticism, I could be wrong, but post one, if you know one....

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I can't find any videos of Akban "pulling guard," but I'm willing to bet it's not exactly what it appears to be- given their......eclecticism, I could be wrong, but post one, if you know one....

The video was posted back on page 1 of this thread. (I posted a couple of responses to the video as well.)

 

[elder999]

The video was posted back on page 1 of this thread. (I posted a couple of responses to the video as well.)

Sorry-you posted this just as I thought to search the thread!

It's well-documented that Hatsumi learned Togakure Ryu and the other arts which go into the Bujinkan from Toshitsugu Takamatsu, so if the scare quotes around "discovered" are meant to indicate that he actually secretly fabricated the art, then that accusation should be aimed at Takamatsu.

I considered that there might be some judo influence in the technique, but I've never seen that particular sequence (jump guard to double ankle grab sweep to kick) in any judo reference. Elder could probably tell us if there's some obscure judo source for the kata.

It's also well documented that when he first saw judo, Takamatsu was horrified that judoka bend their backs to execute throws......

"Jumping guard" is an effective defense against most throws in judo, which is probably why it's penalized in contests.....

As for the video, while it's less true for judo, it's still true-it's truer still for koryu, or arts closer to their koryu roots, like Bujinkan taijutsu-one has to consider the context for the technique: "jumping guard" is also an effective "last ditch" technique when unarmed and in armor, and fighting someone else (armed or unarmed) in armor...though, that particular sequence, not so much. It's what I was getting at without seeing the video: there are a couple of koryu techniques that might appear to be "jumping guard," but getting in the guard position isn't the objective, any more than it is to choke the opponent or break their arm.

The objective is to snap the neck, and/or smash the head.......just sayin'.....

 

[Hanzou]

The reason I pointed out that video is to show a non-sport style utilizing the jump guard as a self defense tactic. If he bends forward, he's in your guard. If you miss, you can double ankle sweep. If you jump too high, you can roll to the top position, or do a sacrifice throw.

Seems like a viable and strong takedown for self defense purposes.

I think that kicking while you're both on the ground is a bit silly though.

 

[elder999]

T

I think that kicking while you're both on the ground is a bit silly though.

Nah, those kicks can hurt......isn't that the point?

 

[Sub Zero]

In SD I go by BJ Penn's MMA philosophy; use the guard to get back to your feet quickly or sweep/advance to a superiour position. With strikes alone subs are more diffucult to pull off. Not to mention the possibility of a knife being used on you.

 

[Taekwondoguy]

Stay off the ground , if possible. Knife can appear out of nowhere. Learn ground to know it, but run to avoid conflict is smarter.

 

[Hanzou]

Stay off the ground , if possible. Knife can appear out of nowhere. Learn ground to know it, but run to avoid conflict is smarter.

If possible is the key word here. If it's not possible, the guard can save your life.

 

[Koshiki]

If possible is the key word here. If it's not possible, the guard can save your life.

I know I'm late to the party, but I feel that this one line could have (perhaps should have) been the entire discussion. No, I don't think anyone would advocate pulling guard and then "just lying there" (ahem) as a go to, complete self-defense system against all comers in all situations.

But no one can honestly deny that fights do, with some regularity end up on the ground. No one can also deny that if it goes to the ground YOU might be the one on bottom. And I really, REALLY hope no one would rather be under mount than in guard.

I am about as far from a ground fighter as you can get. I'm a stand up guy, with zero-ground game, and my training is all as SD focused as I can make it. I have zero interest in sport competition.

But I've still poured quite a bit of time into comfort with guard position. Much as you may not want to end up on the ground, on the bottom, you simply cannot ignore the possibility and not train for it if you are in any way serious about comprehensive training.

But yeah, nuance and detail and interpretation aside, the OP was asking if guard has a place in SD.

The answer is yes.

It's not going to win a fight, and you might not WANT to end up there, but I'd sure as hell rather train for that eventuality now then try to wing it in the heat of the moment!

I mean, heck, I'm from a TKD school, and we've done simple guard training for longer than I've been alive. In a TKD school! (To be fair, we're a weird branch of TKD...)

Guard is useful, and it definitely has a place in self defense.

Saying Guard is not useful because you don't want to go to the ground on your back is like saying blocks/slipping/positioning are not useful because you don't want someone punching at your head and you can't win a fight by just not getting hit, or that learning to deal with/control an arm with a knife is not useful because you can't win a fight by just not getting stabbed, or that keeping your hands up and your spacing where you want it isn't useful because distancing and raised hands do not win a fight on their own, or...

 

[Milo of Croton]

IMHO,

As much as possible, avoid going to the ground as much as possible. You'll never know if the scumbag has mates until it's too late and you've been reduced to a wet icky spot on the pavement. But in those worst-case scenarios when the fight does go to the ground, it's indispensable. Just don't make the mistake of sticking around in that position for too long; get back up on your feet as soon as you can.

 

[Koshiki]

Just don't make the mistake of sticking around in that position for too long; get back up on your feet as soon as you can.

Oh definitely, a thousand times yes. Especially if, like me, your ground game is terrible. Especially if, like me, you're a little guy who is easily picked up and slammed. I've felt that enough times on grass, sand, and mats to NOT want to find out what it feels like on the edge of a chair, or across a curb...

 

[Hanzou]

Well to be fair, there are some guys who are wizards on the ground, who could hang out there all they and destroy people.

Just saying....

 

[Milo of Croton]

Well to be fair, there are some guys who are wizards on the ground, who could hang out there all they and destroy people.

Just saying....

I wouldn't deny the probability of that, but not everyone's a ground-game wizard. It takes excellent coordination, mind-body awareness, knowledge of body mechanics and good technique to attain that quality of skill, and that can take years. I also acknowledge though that not everyone who takes up self-defense classes, or martial arts for self-defense is going to treat it as a serious hobby or even a lifestyle as a lot of us on this forum probably do. So for their benefit, I'd rather teach them something/technique that will have a better chance of working for the less experienced/uninitiated than something that may only work for professionals and full-time martial artists. The more intermediate/advanced techniques they can learn later on as they develop in their respective arts, but today then can learn the fundamentals and simpler foundational techniques on which they can build their armory of skills, but will also serve them practically with the right approach to training and conditioning.

This doesn't discount advanced technique though. Not by any means! I'm just saying that an excellent ground-game will only happen for a few who truly commit to the art or have a natural predisposition for mangling other people. And we'll never know when you'll need those crucial fundamentals in a self-defense situation. You could be mugged tomorrow next week or even tomorrow while coming home from work, and that's not enough time to teach you how to apply a lock or choke from the guard, or enough time for me to ease you into how to pin an assailant with a half or full nelson so you can make mush of his face. I can, but if you don't fully have it down yet, I would recommend that you recourse to something simpler. The guard is excellent for dominating another human being and serves as a gateway to doing all sorts of unpleasant things to them, but until you've mastered it, I would not recommend you try it - especially if there are other things you can do more effectively in the meantime.

 

[Koshiki]

Well to be fair, there are some guys who are wizards on the ground, who could hang out there all they and destroy people.

Oh definitely. No argument there. But for those of us who are NOT ground wizards, guard is going to be a last ditch emergency contingency, with much of our strategy revolving around getting OUT of guard and back on our feet.

It's like I wouldn't recommend boxing as a good strategy for dealing with an armed attacker, but there are definitely boxers out there who could pull it off. If you're a boxing wizard, play to your strength.

I wouldn't reccomend either strategy as the best go-to, other options being available, to anyone trying to decide what to train, but if you've already trained it, might as well make use of it.

 

[Buka]

As for knives - if you carry one you should train ground fighting with a knife. It's usually standard BJJ with the drawing/striking of your blade from typical BJJ positions, and the easiest targets from those positions.
Mark Human from South Africa teaches a great seminar on it. A lot of knife guys do. Armpit strike with knife is great from your guard. It seems the easiest target.

To what Hanzou said -
"Well to be fair, there are some guys who are wizards on the ground, who could hang out there all they and destroy people.
Just saying...."

I whole heartedly agree. If Relson Gracie gets you in his guard and wants you to starve to death, you are starving to death. I don't give a damn about how well you think you pass guard or what rank you have in anything, including BJJ.
I know, it's Relson Gracie, but..
Just saying.

 

[Koshiki]

If Relson Gracie gets you in his guard and wants you to starve to death, you are starving to death.

The worst bit is watching him casually making himself a sandwich and eating while he's got you there immobilized....

 

[drop bear]

As for knives - if you carry one you should train ground fighting with a knife. It's usually standard BJJ with the drawing/striking of your blade from typical BJJ positions, and the easiest targets from those positions.
Mark Human from South Africa teaches a great seminar on it. A lot of knife guys do. Armpit strike with knife is great from your guard. It seems the easiest target.

Ground fighting with strikes also puts an importance on isolating arms.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm, missed all this the first time round… didn't expect to see anything of my systems there. That said, a few things to get straight.

Who knew that jumping guard was part of Ninjutsu kata?

Despite what Yossi and the Akban boys have put as the title, that's not a "jumping guard". At all.

Believe it or not, I saw that sequence in a (Japanese language) book by Hatsumi decades ago, before there was any significant awareness of BJJ in the US or Japan. As in the video, there's no actual fighting from the guard - just an immediate sweep followed by kicks.

Edit - some googling reveals that the book in question was published in 1964.

Yep, the actual method shown in the video is (a slightly odd variation of) Hissaku from Koto Ryu Koppojutsu. For the record, there are also similar kata in both lines of Shinden Fudo Ryu, with Fubi in the Dakentaijutsu and Ryu Ko Ashi Gata (an Ura Gata of Ryu Ko) in the Jutaijutsu… and none of them are an application of the guard. In fact, they're quite the opposite.

Considering Hatsumi's Judo background before he "discovered" Ninjutsu, that doesn't surprise me.

Except that this isn't from Judo…

It's well-documented that Hatsumi learned Togakure Ryu and the other arts which go into the Bujinkan from Toshitsugu Takamatsu, so if the scare quotes around "discovered" are meant to indicate that he actually secretly fabricated the art, then that accusation should be aimed at Takamatsu.

I considered that there might be some judo influence in the technique, but I've never seen that particular sequence (jump guard to double ankle grab sweep to kick) in any judo reference. Elder could probably tell us if there's some obscure judo source for the kata.

As seen (and applied) in the Koto Ryu waza? Nope. Although that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist there…

Perhaps it emerged from Judo's sacrifice throws? In either case, I think it's interesting that the Akban view jump guard as a self defense method.

Nope. Stop looking at Judo for it… it ain't there. Again, it's not what you think it is.

As for guard pulling as a valid self defense tactic, I think the Akban guys showed plenty of SD applications using the guard pull. :shrug:

What in the Akban video made you think it was being presented as self defence, let alone a "valid self defence tactic"? There's no mention there at all… and it's still not a guard…

I can't find any videos of Akban "pulling guard," but I'm willing to bet it's not exactly what it appears to be- given their......eclecticism, I could be wrong, but post one, if you know one....

It's not what it appears to be… but that has nothing to do with their eclecticism… if anything, I'd point to that to indicate that they seem to have missed the basic differences between Hissaku and "pulling guard"…

As for the video, while it's less true for judo, it's still true-it's truer still for koryu, or arts closer to their koryu roots, like Bujinkan taijutsu-one has to consider the context for the technique:

Yep. Of course… that can mean a number of things…

"jumping guard" is also an effective "last ditch" technique when unarmed and in armor, and fighting someone else (armed or unarmed) in armour…

Not just in armour, but again, context is the key here…

though, that particular sequence, not so much.

Ha, yeah… I'm not overly fond of how they're interpreting that one…

It's what I was getting at without seeing the video: there are a couple of koryu techniques that might appear to be "jumping guard," but getting in the guard position isn't the objective, any more than it is to choke the opponent or break their arm.

There we go! Our name for it is do shime… "body choke". It's applied by leaping up from the front… or the side… or behind… or on the ground… from the front… or the side… or behind… but the important thing is that it's almost exactly opposite to the guard itself. The guard is a position used to limit (and control) the opponent's ability to continue to attack. It's defensive in nature, kinda by definition (that's why it has such a defensive name… the guard…). What's seen in the Koto Ryu method, though, is pretty much purely offensive… it's an attack to the ribs and body, seeking to choke and affect the breathing by compressing the lungs. The target is the lower ribs, rather than controlling the hips… so, although it looks very similar, it's really nothing like it.

The objective is to snap the neck, and/or smash the head.......just sayin'.....

Eh, not so much… the aim of the do shime itself is compression of the lungs and ribs/diaphragm… that can lead to secondary actions that aim at injuring the back, or impacting the head onto the ground (resulting in a concussion or worse), but the action itself is a choke. Pure and simple, really.