self defense until im old

[Koshiki]

Don't be a duchebag.

Aside from spelling, I have to agree. This is entirely my own experience, and since nearly two years ago, when I moved 30 miles from a sh***y neighborhood to a poor but pleasant neighborhood of a very nice town, I think I can honesty say I haven't been in a single situation where I though a "fight" was brewing. But yeah, for me, as a young, perhaps slightly disreputable looking but mostly very friendly male, I agree.

My wife, as a small, pretty, very passive looking woman has had a very different experience with how one avoids violence.

For me, a mixture of bravado and an apparent disinterest, all the while maintaining a psuedo-friendly disposition seems to do the trick. You smile, you joke, you feign boredom, you make sure the other guy notices you're bracing to smash his face, and the situation diffuses. Because, as a young male, anyone looking to start triuble with me wants to prove something. You show them that:
1. They have nothing to prove, i.e. you have no interest in fighting them, and:
2. You're not an easy target, and
Bam, there ya go, problem solved.

Back to my wife.

None of that will work for her. A guy getting aggressive with a 110 pound redhead with big eyes isn't looking to prove his machismo. He may be after a variety of things, but proving to his buddies that he can take and dish a punch is simply not on the menu.

In other words, the experience of a bouncer in diffusion and distraction is completely different from, well, that of anyone else. Social interaction is ridiculously complex, to the point where hard science still doesn't even make the attempt. Anyone saying that negating social violence is "natural" or "easy" simply does not understand social violence outside of their own sphere.

And that's not even broaching the more unpleasant forms of violence out there.

 

[drop bear]

Aside from spelling, I have to agree. This is entirely my own experience, and since nearly two years ago, when I moved 30 miles from a sh***y neighborhood to a poor but pleasant neighborhood of a very nice town, I think I can honesty say I haven't been in a single situation where I though a "fight" was brewing. But yeah, for me, as a young, perhaps slightly disreputable looking but mostly very friendly male, I agree.

My wife, as a small, pretty, very passive looking woman has had a very different experience with how one avoids violence.

For me, a mixture of bravado and an apparent disinterest, all the while maintaining a psuedo-friendly disposition seems to do the trick. You smile, you joke, you feign boredom, you make sure the other guy notices you're bracing to smash his face, and the situation diffuses. Because, as a young male, anyone looking to start triuble with me wants to prove something. You show them that:
1. They have nothing to prove, i.e. you have no interest in fighting them, and:
2. You're not an easy target, and
Bam, there ya go, problem solved.

Back to my wife.

None of that will work for her. A guy getting aggressive with a 110 pound redhead with big eyes isn't looking to prove his machismo. He may be after a variety of things, but proving to his buddies that he can take and dish a punch is simply not on the menu.

In other words, the experience of a bouncer in diffusion and distraction is completely different from, well, that of anyone else. Social interaction is ridiculously complex, to the point where hard science still doesn't even make the attempt. Anyone saying that negating social violence is "natural" or "easy" simply does not understand social violence outside of their own sphere.

And that's not even broaching the more unpleasant forms of violence out there.

Which brings me back to this idea that there seem to be a lot of people who are apparently expert enough to teach deescalation. And tout their system as some sort of solution to violence.

And I am not sure where they are getting their information from.

I think that is why we have color charts. Because for the most part the field testing is not put in to create a viable training system and we are left with what should be bloody obvious.

 

[Paul_D]

Anyone saying that negating social violence is "natural" or "easy" simply does not understand social violence outside of their own sphere.

You can't negate violence, any more than you can stop someone breaking into your house, all you can do is make it more difficult for them so they move on and chose an easier target.

 

[Koshiki]

...Because for the most part the field testing is not put in to create a viable training system and we are left with what should be bloody obvious.

Again, I largely agree. I have serious, conflicted thoughts about people teaching "Self Defense." Teaching someone to fight, which is undeniably helpful, sure, but Self Defense? I've seen quite a few attempts, and it usually seems to be lackluster at best. Are there people who can do it? Yeah, but I think they're more likely to be crime analysts and social workers than martial artists and sports competitors, in most cases. Note, in most cases.

 

[drop bear]

Again, I largely agree. I have serious, conflicted thoughts about people teaching "Self Defense." Teaching someone to fight, which is undeniably helpful, sure, but Self Defense? I've seen quite a few attempts, and it usually seems to be lackluster at best. Are there people who can do it? Yeah, but I think they're more likely to be crime analysts and social workers than martial artists and sports competitors, in most cases. Note, in most cases.

There are resources I use. Very few are the industry training for your exact reason.

Places like lonely planet that will teach you the current scams.
Buyer beware: 10 common travel scams - Lonely Planet

 

[Bill Mattocks]

All of the above is nonsense. Isshin-Ryu is what you want. No kicks above the waist. No fancy-schmancy moves that a) old guys don't do well and b) are liable to get you killed anyway. I started training at age 46, I'm going to be 55 soon. Isshin-Ryu is great for guys like me. Big, strong, overweight, and hit a ton. It's also great for little guys like our founder; speed, stability, and technique can overrule size, strength, and power. It's not hard to learn, but it's a lifetime to master, which keeps your interest.

Just ignore the rest and do Isshin-Ryu. You'll thank me later.

 

[Chris Parker]

So how are you getting the deescalation skills? You cannot test deescalation with role play because the person you are testing it on is not emotionally involved. So from scenarios you can't have a good well designed training methodology. You have to field test it.

Then you don't understand how to do scenario training… or have never done it properly. You're not alone there, of course… some view it as a form of "acting", and get all self-conscious about it… so never actually approach it the way it should be done. But yes, emotional involvement (a realistic portrayal of such, at least) is a vital aspect of scenario training. Once again, the lack in your experience is not the truth of the matter in any way, shape, or form.

Your opinion in this is wrong.

My opinion is based purely on the gigantic lack shown in each and every post you have made on the topic… both before and after these posts.

OK. Sorry I will explain this more simply. This is street fighting and its link to bullying and even a bit of deescalation for you.

Son, you're not really in a position to educate me on this… the point I was making was that you were drawing superficial similarities, with little underlying in common, in relation to a tangental topic, unrelated to the actual conversation. It's things like this that indicate that you really don't have the understanding of these topics that you think you do, as you seem unable to follow conversation when it travels outside of your perspective.

Bullying occurs in part because people are allowed to. The victim is chosen as someone who can't or won't fight back. In the same street fight victims in part are chosen as someone who can't or won't fight back.

I really don't think you get what bullying really is… but besides that, the choice of victim is actually fairly different, as the aims are different… and it gets even further apart when you start looking at the difference between social violence (which can in some cases incorporate aspects, or versions of bullying, but also encompasses a lot more), asocial violence, resource predators, match fights, and so on.

This common element of violence is either intentionally or unintentionally predatory.

Isn't that like saying that aggressors behaviour is commonly aggressive? And still completely misses the defining characteristics and separations between the forms?

This comes to an old bouncer saying "your deescalation skills improve comparative to the size of your opponent"

Okay, I'm going to get you to rephrase that one to make it clear what you feel is meant by that "old saying"… it can go in a couple of different directions, depending on interpretation…

This is one aspect of violence that seems to be ignored in some desperate attempt to separate street fighting from other crimes of violence.

Huh? What aspect is being ignored? That it's "predatory"? That de-escalation is affected by the size of the opponent? You're not making the contextual links clearly enough to follow your posts at times…

Oh, and for the record, yes, "street fighting" (whatever that is) is different and separate from other crimes of violence. If you don't get that, I take you back to my comments that you really, really don't get this topic to anywhere near the depth you believe you do.

So your opinion that a bog standard street fight has nothing to do with bullying is wrong. There can be a similar motivation.

There "can" be?!? Dude…

I'll be clear. Bullying is a specific behaviour which is different to, in almost all aspects, from a "bog standard street fight" (again, whatever the hell that is). There is not a "similar motivation", and you have not demonstrated such at all.

It may, and it may not. But the point is that it is not the same format as bullying… I really don't think you have much of an idea what that actually is, though.

OK. See here is where you just loose the plot. You set up the standards for what is bullying. And then just change those standards when they are met. It is your format for bullying not mine.

No, son, what I said was that you really don't seem to grasp what bullying is… so my disagreeing with your personally attributed descriptive (which is largely inconclusive, irrelevant, and unrelated, not to mention non-specific to bullying or other behaviours) is not my "losing (one 'o', mate) the plot"… it's me restating, again, that you're not showing any clue what you're talking about.

If there looks like drama. Leave.

Okay, thanks for at least trying to answer the questions… that said:

This is both not not practical in certain situations, and not actually addressing the issues I was asking about (a contrast between dealing with social and asocial violence). While being aware of impending danger/drama, and recognising a time to leave is good and fine, we're a bit beyond that at this point. I will ask one more time, and request that you actually separate each question out again to answer each specifically, but can you actually go back and answer them? It's okay if you can't… but if that's the case, I highly recommend you stop telling people that that can't do something (teach de-escalation, self defence concepts, scenario training etc) just because you don't have any real grasp on the topics.

Don't be a duchebag.

This works most of the time. Otherwise it gets complicated.

You need to get a lot more specific than that with me. Of course, you're essentially paraphrasing Marc MacYoung here… who teaches all the stuff you say people can't… which I find amusing…

By the way. Passive and aggressive escalation and deescalation you do at the same time. So it is not a when. It is how much of each you are applying

Er… what on earth are you going on about here?!? No, you cannot both passively and aggressively de-escalate at the same moment… you also cannot de-escalate and escalate at the same time… it's like trying to floor the accelerator while having the car in park and the handbrake on… too many opposing directions. What you can (and should) do is to be able to switch between them as the situation dictates.

As far as that video, I have no idea what you're trying to say with it, as there are numerous mistakes made throughout it, with little other than some luck and confidence getting the bouncer through… but there is no usage of passive and aggressive de-escalation and escalation at the same time at all… overtly, what he's doing is "big-dogging" the patron… which is a basic aggressive de-escalation tactic. I'm not a big fan of how he did it, but it worked for him here (as said, with a bit of luck, as well as the usage of his own name to back up his credibility). But it really didn't have anything to do with what you were saying.

Which brings me back to this idea that there seem to be a lot of people who are apparently expert enough to teach deescalation. And tout their system as some sort of solution to violence.

Yes, we are. And we don't tout such things as solutions to violence, but as a way of handling such situations…

And I am not sure where they are getting their information from.

No, you can't get the idea that other people have a wider range of experience than you. Seriously, get over it. You've been told many times, and simply keep your fingers in your ears… your lack is not indicative of anyone else's.

I think that is why we have color charts. Because for the most part the field testing is not put in to create a viable training system and we are left with what should be bloody obvious.

What?!? No, that is not anything like why there are things like Coopers Colour Charts in use… JKS already went through it for you.

Seriously, dude, your lack of knowledge is no-one's issue but your own.

There are resources I use. Very few are the industry training for your exact reason.

Places like lonely planet that will teach you the current scams.
Buyer beware: 10 common travel scams - Lonely Planet

Then get better information and a wider range of sources. This is such incredibly low-level information that, if this is the level of your education in these topics, it's no wonder you're being left so far behind in these conversations.

All of the above is nonsense. Isshin-Ryu is what you want. No kicks above the waist. No fancy-schmancy moves that a) old guys don't do well and b) are liable to get you killed anyway. I started training at age 46, I'm going to be 55 soon. Isshin-Ryu is great for guys like me. Big, strong, overweight, and hit a ton. It's also great for little guys like our founder; speed, stability, and technique can overrule size, strength, and power. It's not hard to learn, but it's a lifetime to master, which keeps your interest.

Just ignore the rest and do Isshin-Ryu. You'll thank me later.

Hey Bill… Honestly, I'm trying to figure out if you're being somewhat tongue-in-cheek here… I get that you're a big fan of your system, but you're also educated enough to know that no, it's far from the only answer. It might be the best for you, but that's about as far as you can definitely state. So, if you're being tongue-in-cheek, all cool. If not… then I'd have quite a bit to argue…

 

[Steve]

Oh brother. The condescension is so thick, it's hard to see the words on the screen.

 

[drop bear]

Son, you're not really in a position to educate me on this… the point I was making was that you were drawing superficial similarities, with little underlying in common, in relation to a tangental topic, unrelated to the actual conversation. It's things like this that indicate that you really don't have the understanding of these topics that you think you do, as you seem unable to follow conversation when it travels outside of your perspective.

OK so you are the deescalation and awareness guy? What is your resume? Where have you gained these skills?

 

[drop bear]

Oh brother. The condescension is so thick, it's hard to see the words on the screen.

I showed some posts to a sceptics group i am with. They suggested it is the dunning kruger effect.

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh brother. The condescension is so thick, it's hard to see the words on the screen.

Then I suggest you look past your personal issues and try to read what's actually said, Steve.

OK so you are the deescalation and awareness guy? What is your resume? Where have you gained these skills?

Not really the point, you understand… I mean… if my questions are beyond your ability to answer, that might be an indication of who's at what level here… but, to humour you, my resume is the last 22 years in an organisation that specifically gears it's methodology towards such ideas, combined with practical (real world) experience, on a variety of levels, and continued exposure to better and better information from subject matter experts… some of whom I am happy to have as friends, others as well-respected and known persons in the field.

I showed some posts to a sceptics group i am with. They suggested it is the dunning kruger effect.

And do you want to know what people I've shown your posts to say…?

Here's the thing. Your sceptics group are not subject matter experts here, and are likely going to go on your self-described credibility and status. That's normal (although the irony of a sceptic group doing so is quite amusing to me)… but it means that they aren't likely to be in a position to be able to ascertain who might be suffering from a Dunning Kruger effect… of course, knowing what it is, and knowing that you haven't been able to address any of my questions at all, coupled with your inability to see any point of view that doesn't match your limited understanding, the arrow is not pointing in my direction.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Hey Bill… Honestly, I'm trying to figure out if you're being somewhat tongue-in-cheek here… I get that you're a big fan of your system, but you're also educated enough to know that no, it's far from the only answer. It might be the best for you, but that's about as far as you can definitely state. So, if you're being tongue-in-cheek, all cool. If not… then I'd have quite a bit to argue…

Yeah, just taking the piss.

I think I threw that in because some of the responses were like OMG. It was all far too silly, so I just went with it.

 

[Steve]

Then I suggest you look past your personal issues and try to read what's actually said, Steve..

Thanks for your suggestion, son, but you're not really in a position to educate me on this.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So when does this degrade into "Who's is bigger"...oh wait...it just did....

 

[Koshiki]

Poor OP. All they wanted was a few suggestions of martial arts styles that are frequently geared at self-defense style combat, and which also are less demanding on the body. Hopefully they got some useful info out of the first page...

 

[Flatfish]

Poor OP. All they wanted was a few suggestions of martial arts styles that are frequently geared at self-defense style combat, and which also are less demanding on the body. Hopefully they got some useful info out of the first page...

I think the OP learned A LOT

 

[Buka]

Poor OP. All they wanted was a few suggestions of martial arts styles that are frequently geared at self-defense style combat, and which also are less demanding on the body. Hopefully they got some useful info out of the first page...

LOL, you're right, bro. Poor Nicerdicer (The OP) probably thinks we're all nuts.

 

[Koshiki]

LOL, you're right, bro. Poor Nicerdicer (The OP) probably thinks we're all nuts.

Well, it's to be expected, mixing people who enjoy being smacked around and the internet...

 

[drop bear]

Not really the point, you understand… I mean… if my questions are beyond your ability to answer, that might be an indication of who's at what level here… but, to humour you, my resume is the last 22 years in an organisation that specifically gears it's methodology towards such ideas, combined with practical (real world) experience, on a variety of levels, and continued exposure to better and better information from subject matter experts… some of whom I am happy to have as friends, others as well-respected and known persons in the field.

So you do what. domestic violence? Hostage negotiation? Some sort of degree in psychology? I don't know.

You can't seriously suggest you expertise has come directly from being a ninja. That would be ludicrous.

 

[drop bear]

So when does this degrade into "Who's is bigger"...oh wait...it just did....

Trolling again?