the front stance

[tshadowchaser]

Many systems have just a little different front stance from the next guys system. How do you do your front stance? Is the back leg locked/bent, is you back foot turned outward/straight , are you centered over a bent front knee, etc.?
Lets see what is the same and what is different and would you please explain why your system dose the stance the way it dose

 

[jdinca]

First of all, can we find out what you consider to be the proper stance?

 

[tshadowchaser]

thats what I am trying to find out about different systems.

Ok In the Sikaran system I learned the front stance has one foot about 1 1/2 shoulder length in front of the other with the feet a little more the 1 shoulder wide. The front knee is bent at a 90 degree angle or slightly more with the toes turned slightly inward. The torso of you body is approximately over the knee with the back straight. The back leg is locked straight with the toes pointed straight ahead. the Knee of the front leg is pushed outward away from the center line of the stance.
(my instructor would often test the stance by kicking the side of the knee of the front leg and stepping on the rear leg at the knee)

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Ours is a classic okinawan stance. Its a higher wiht the back leg straight to slightly bent and the front knee is bent so you can't the big toe or very little of it. The back foot can be pointing straight ahead or slightly angled.

 

[exile]

Our front stance (TKD) is very deep, back leg locked rigid, fron let deeply bent, and the diagonal line between the feet is betwen 1.5 and 2 shoulder-widths apart, the upper body absolutely perpendicular. It's very similar to the Shotokan front stance, from what I've seen when comparing techs with Shotokan karateka.

What our instructor constantly emphasizes is that what's important about the front stance isn't the stance itself, but the movement into that position, and that that movement corresponds not to a `position' for fighting but rather encodes a forward (and usually downward) shift of body weight, typically in connection with some tech which this shift greatly amplifies—like application of severe pressure to an attacker's locked arm, or shifting from a move whereby you trap the attacker and anchor him (with such a lock, say) using the chambering hand, to a followup strike with that chambering hand (where the other hand, by muchimi, now controls the attacker).

This sequence is a classic realistic bunkai for a number of the Palgwes in TKD, for example. The idea is, you are bringing bodyweight to bear on an attacker's weak point, or you are exploiting your control of the attacker to move in close and deliver the finishish strike. But always, the message of the front stance is the forward/downward weight shift...

 

[Touch Of Death]

Our front stance (TKD) is very deep, back leg locked rigid, fron let deeply bent, and the diagonal line between the feet is betwen 1.5 and 2 shoulder-widths apart, the upper body absolutely perpendicular. It's very similar to the Shotokan front stance, from what I've seen when comparing techs with Shotokan karateka.

What our instructor constantly emphasizes is that what's important about the front stance isn't the stance itself, but the movement into that position, and that that movement corresponds not to a `position' for fighting but rather encodes a forward (and usually downward) shift of body weight, typically in connection with some tech which this shift greatly amplifies—like application of severe pressure to an attacker's locked arm, or shifting from a move whereby you trap the attacker and anchor him (with such a lock, say) using the chambering hand, to a followup strike with that chambering hand (where the other hand, by muchimi, now controls the attacker).

This sequence is a classic realistic bunkai for a number of the Palgwes in TKD, for example. The idea is, you are bringing bodyweight to bear on an attacker's weak point, or you are exploiting your control of the attacker to move in close and deliver the finishish strike. But always, the message of the front stance is the forward/downward weight shift...

I believe that exact stance exists in kenpo but its on such a passing through level we don't teach the static. realizing its there was fun.
Sean

 

[Flying Crane]

By "front" stance, are you referring to a "bow and arrow" or simply "bow" stance?

 

[jdinca]

thats what I am trying to find out about different systems.

Ok In the Sikaran system I learned the front stance has one foot about 1 1/2 shoulder length in front of the other with the feet a little more the 1 shoulder wide. The front knee is bent at a 90 degree angle or slightly more with the toes turned slightly inward. The torso of you body is approximately over the knee with the back straight. The back leg is locked straight with the toes pointed straight ahead. the Knee of the front leg is pushed outward away from the center line of the stance.
(my instructor would often test the stance by kicking the side of the knee of the front leg and stepping on the rear leg at the knee)

Got it! In kenpo, that would be a forward bow stance. In Bok Fu Do, we call it a Hard Bow because it's a very rigid stance, not one you want to stay in.

The feet are about shoulder width apart. The front foot is angled in about 45 degrees, with the knee directly above the foot and not caved inward. The back leg is "locked out" and the toes are pointed forward. The body should be located between the front and back foot where you have an even amount of weight on the front and back foot. Your back should be straight and your hips perpendicular to the legs.

 

[zDom]

Shoulder width or maybe just a little over shoulder width wide; about 2 shoulder widths long.

Both feet pointed straight forward (or as straight as possible with rear foot)

Back leg locked; front lower leg perpendicular to the ground — no lean forward, backward, left or right.

Hips and shoulders square (neither hip nor shoulder farther in front that the other one).

Upper torso perpendicular to the ground — no lean any direction. Shoulders directly over the hips.

Front foot/leg supporting more weight than the rear.

 

[jdinca]

Shoulder width or maybe just a little over shoulder width wide; about 2 shoulder widths long.

Both feet pointed straight forward (or as straight as possible with rear foot)

Back leg locked; front lower leg perpendicular to the ground — no lean forward, backward, left or right.

Hips and shoulders square (neither hip nor shoulder farther in front that the other one).

Upper torso perpendicular to the ground — no lean any direction. Shoulders directly over the hips.

Front foot/leg supporting more weight than the rear.

Only difference from our stance is the front foot. We turn it in for stability and balance.

 

[Flying Crane]

Only difference from our stance is the front foot. We turn it in for stability and balance.

Yes, I think you'll see it this way more commonly in the Chinese arts. The front foot is turned in, with the knee also turned slightly in, which provides some protection to the groin from the front.

Also, in the Chinese arts, the rear foot is not fully pointed forward.

 

[tshadowchaser]

good response to how it is done . Can we have some of the reasons why the foot is out/in /stright or the back leg bent/stright. I know a few have ansewered these questions so I am just looking for my insite

Flying Crane the stace I am talking about is the bow

 

[Flying Crane]

Flying Crane the stace I am talking about is the bow

yeah, i'm picking up on that, momma didn't raise no fool!

From the perspective of the Chinese arts, if you take a look at the stance done with the feet pointed directly forward, we feel that you lack stability from side-to-side. Your base is only as wide as your foot is narrow. If you compensate for that by widening your stance, then you leave your centerline open to the front. Instead, if you turn your foot in as far as is comfortable, perhaps putting it on about a 45 degree angle, you have now increased the width of your base probably by about 100%, which gives you more lateral stability. Your front-to-back base is already very deep, the full length of your stance, so stability in this direction is not affected. And as I mentioned before, having the front knee pointing in the same direction as the front toes, helps to cover and protect the groin from a frontal attack.

Some people in the kenpo community like to still point the rear foot directly forward. I personally disagree, and my experience in the Chinese arts seems to be in agreement with my thoughts. For myself, unless my bow stance is very high, I cannot confortably point the rear foot completely forward. It seems like it stresses the rear ankle, and feels like it sacrifices some amount of stability. Instead, the rear foot is still on an angle, similar to the front foot, but probably turned somewhat more foreward, but not completely.

Sink and turn thru the hips so the torso is facing forward.

The front toes and rear heel should be in line with each other. Less than that and your centerline is too closed, making it difficult to launch techniques. More than that and you are leaving your centerline open and exposed.

 

[tshadowchaser]

a great answere thanks

 

[IWishToLearn]

I've personally never seen a Kenpo forward bow (what my schools use) anywhere near as deep as a traditional system front stance. In addition - the Forward Bow is kept with both feet roughly inside your own shoulder line, essentially no more than an exaggerated step. All versions of front stances I was ever taught, be it from Korean or Japanese influence emphasized the feet were more than shoulder width apart - which is not necessarily a good thing.

 

[Steel Tiger]

yeah, i'm picking up on that, momma didn't raise no fool!

From the perspective of the Chinese arts, if you take a look at the stance done with the feet pointed directly forward, we feel that you lack stability from side-to-side. Your base is only as wide as your foot is narrow. If you compensate for that by widening your stance, then you leave your centerline open to the front. Instead, if you turn your foot in as far as is comfortable, perhaps putting it on about a 45 degree angle, you have now increased the width of your base probably by about 100%, which gives you more lateral stability. Your front-to-back base is already very deep, the full length of your stance, so stability in this direction is not affected. And as I mentioned before, having the front knee pointing in the same direction as the front toes, helps to cover and protect the groin from a frontal attack.

Some people in the kenpo community like to still point the rear foot directly forward. I personally disagree, and my experience in the Chinese arts seems to be in agreement with my thoughts. For myself, unless my bow stance is very high, I cannot confortably point the rear foot completely forward. It seems like it stresses the rear ankle, and feels like it sacrifices some amount of stability. Instead, the rear foot is still on an angle, similar to the front foot, but probably turned somewhat more foreward, but not completely.

Sink and turn thru the hips so the torso is facing forward.

The front toes and rear heel should be in line with each other. Less than that and your centerline is too closed, making it difficult to launch techniques. More than that and you are leaving your centerline open and exposed.

It looks like you are describing the same stance I use and teach. We call the stance Deng Shan Bu, "Climbing the Mountain Stance".

 

[jdinca]

I've personally never seen a Kenpo forward bow (what my schools use) anywhere near as deep as a traditional system front stance. In addition - the Forward Bow is kept with both feet roughly inside your own shoulder line, essentially no more than an exaggerated step. All versions of front stances I was ever taught, be it from Korean or Japanese influence emphasized the feet were more than shoulder width apart - which is not necessarily a good thing.

This is true for us too. When we switch from kenpo into northern chinese forms, the stance becomes deeper and longer. In addition, instead of the shoulders being more, or less square to the front, the shoulder on the side of the strike is extended a little farther so that the shoulders are facing the 45 degree.

 

[Flying Crane]

It looks like you are describing the same stance I use and teach. We call the stance Deng Shan Bu, "Climbing the Mountain Stance".

Ah, interesting. We take the Bow, or Bow and Arrow, from the perspective that the person takes on the shape of the weapon. The front leg and torso make up the bow, and the rear leg is the arrow drawn back and aimed at about a 45 degree angle up.

 

[kidswarrior]

I've deliberately stayed out of this technical discussion because my art doesn't use a 'fighting' stance as most people think of it. But I firmly believe in what we practice, so, if a picture is worth a thousand words, here's my contribution (short clip) on how the combat begins:

 

[funnytiger]

yeah, i'm picking up on that, momma didn't raise no fool!

From the perspective of the Chinese arts, if you take a look at the stance done with the feet pointed directly forward, we feel that you lack stability from side-to-side. Your base is only as wide as your foot is narrow. If you compensate for that by widening your stance, then you leave your centerline open to the front. Instead, if you turn your foot in as far as is comfortable, perhaps putting it on about a 45 degree angle, you have now increased the width of your base probably by about 100%, which gives you more lateral stability. Your front-to-back base is already very deep, the full length of your stance, so stability in this direction is not affected. And as I mentioned before, having the front knee pointing in the same direction as the front toes, helps to cover and protect the groin from a frontal attack.

Some people in the kenpo community like to still point the rear foot directly forward. I personally disagree, and my experience in the Chinese arts seems to be in agreement with my thoughts. For myself, unless my bow stance is very high, I cannot confortably point the rear foot completely forward. It seems like it stresses the rear ankle, and feels like it sacrifices some amount of stability. Instead, the rear foot is still on an angle, similar to the front foot, but probably turned somewhat more foreward, but not completely.

Sink and turn thru the hips so the torso is facing forward.

The front toes and rear heel should be in line with each other. Less than that and your centerline is too closed, making it difficult to launch techniques. More than that and you are leaving your centerline open and exposed.

I'm pretty much on point with what FC has said so far. Probably the biggest difference would be our rear foot which is not in line with the front foot. To help you visualize it better, start in sei ping ma, then take your right foot and place it about a half step from where your left foot is, making your right instep and your left toes inline. Then turn into gung jin ma (bow and arrow) where your front foot is turned slightly inward (45 degree angle) and your rear foot is also at about a 45 degree angle. Your front leg is bent so that when you look down at your front foot you should not be able to see your foot. Torso forward, hips forward, shoulders squared.

Question for you though FC, what would you consider the difference in a "bow" stance and a "bow and arrow" stance?

- ft