The distaste for strength in martial arts

[MetalBoar]

There are some strength training that no machine can be used to replace it. How do you use machine to develop your

- fingers grip strength?
- both arms rotation strength?
- head lock squeeze strength?

Grip strength is easy. Of the exercises I do with regularity, both pull down and seated row directly inroad the hands and forearms. A number of other machine exercises do so less directly, but meaningfully, when you work with heavy loads to full, momentary muscular failure. I did pull down just last night and my forearms, hands and fingers are all still feeling it today.

As far as arm rotation strength, as presented in the first video, that takes several machines because there's a lot more going on than just arm rotation. With a quality pull down machine you can engage pretty much every upper body muscle involved in that movement. If you include a quality declined chest press and a shoulder press you definitely have them all. If you really want to hit the obliques more, there are dedicated machines for that, but I've never found it necessary, as long as the pull down and declined chest press machine are good, and assuming you're training with heavy weight to failure.

For the lower body muscles utilized for that movement, between hip extension and leg press (again, assuming quality machines) you've got everything in the lower body covered as well as the pelvic muscles and the muscles of the lower back. If you really feel like you need to have an exercise focusing directly on everything you could add in an ab/ad machine, leg curl, or calf raise, but again, I think that's generally unnecessary for most people.

Head lock squeeze? Again, pull down and chest press should target all of the associated muscles used for that.

So, to sum up, with a quality pull down, declined chest press, hip extension and leg press machine you should be able to effectively train all the muscles used in the videos you posted. So, 4 machines to do the job. If you wanted to add in shoulder press, that would be worth while. You could add in a few more machines if you really, truly, felt like you needed more focused work on a few, smaller, muscle groups, but it's going to be unnecessary for most people.

Now, that's not a complete picture if you want to apply those muscles to martial arts, or any other specific activity. You need to develop the skills and perhaps in some cases the neurological brain/body connection to most effectively apply those muscles to a specific task. I think this is what you find lacking from machine weight training.

I completely agree that machine weights don't provide much, if any, useful skill transfer. That's not the point. They are just really efficient for strengthening all the muscles in the body. If you want to be able to most effectively apply that strength you need to practice the things you want to do with your muscles. Your barrel twisting video or the melon squeeze are good examples of how you might do that, some calisthenics are good for this purpose, doing martial arts drills and/or actually sparring are too. I just think they are a supplement, for the purpose of specializing, the solid, general, strength improvements that are developed by doing high intensity, machine based, strength training.

 

[skribs]

OK, I'll grant that. Since MA isn't a living thing, it can't have a taste, distaste, preference, or anything of the sort. I did think the context made the intent of the statement clear.
However, this changes nothing. The premise is ridiculous. I am quite confident that no meaningful number of competent practitioners, instructors, or promoters, can be found who will seriously say they don't think strength is good.
If further clarification is needed, just let me know.

By the very virtue of seriously saying strength isn't good, you are probably not a competent practitioner. But you don't need to be competent to be a good salesman.

 

[Mider]

Hi. I am writing an article on the attitudes towards physical strength in martial arts, and would like to get your perspective on this issue (if it is an issue, I personally feel that it is) in martial arts, since you're all much more experienced than me. Every since I started training, I saw that there were many students and professors alike that seemed to have a sort of chip on their shoulders when it came to physical strength. I specifically noticed this in traditional martial arts; while my professors in Jiujitsu seemed to have an issue with strong people, my professors in more modern arts and combat sports seemed to lean towards it. This issue was most prevalent during my fleeting time in Shorinji Kempo, and it was one of the main reasons I quit.

People there seemed to have this sense of superiority towards me because I spend a lot of time working out at the gym and lifting weights, and many jokes and mockery and criticism by both students and senseis aside at people who spend their time training at the gym. Much of it came from the idea that using strength to fight was brutish and perhaps even a little uneducated or simply stupid. Although modern combat sports and martial arts tend to supplement (and in some cases even rely on) strength training for their techniques, this is not to say that they are bereft of such attitudes. I have come across one or two individuals that have this mentality of superiority in my BJJ gym too, and there is even the running joke amongst the online BJJ community where calling someone strong is an insult in a way, as they have no technique worthy of a compliment.

Personally however, I dislike this mentality a lot. I would even go as far as to argue that strength is a technique too - I wasn't born with my strength, and I worked a very long time to get to the level I am in terms of weightlifting today. If it just so happens that it helps me against my opponent, of course I'll use it. I think it is very important to incorporate strength training, whether traditional iron-body type stuff, or modern muscular hypertrophy and development. What are your thoughts on this?

Sounds silly, it’s important to use strength and speed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sounds silly, it’s important to use strength and speed.

If you are a MA instructor, someone challenges you arm wrestling in the public, will you accept that challenge?

If you lose in that challenge, your students may lose faith in you. IMO, strength is one thing that you must have if you are a MA instructor.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When my teacher was young, he would ask his students to bite on his arm. None of his student's teeth could bite into his arm muscle. He had the most powerful head lock that I have ever experienced in my life.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you are a MA instructor, someone challenges you arm wrestling in the public, will you accept that challenge?

If you lose in that challenge, your students may lose faith in you. IMO, strength is one thing that you must have if you are a MA instructor.

I would let the challenger win the arm wrestling match. After my challenger says "be serious" the I would say "ok I'll be serious this time " then I would let him win again. His victories would be hollow and he would be frustrated that I didn't acknowledge himself. My students will see that and would see that I was playing a much bigger game and was successful in denying my opponent the victory that he wanted. Challenges are strange because the main goal is that the person can dominate you. That means physically and mentally. So it's important to pick the right battle field to fight on.

There are more than one way to show strength.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If you are a MA instructor, someone challenges you arm wrestling in the public, will you accept that challenge?

What world do you live in that these sort of things happen?
I mean, reading your posts, it seems like you get challenged at least twice a week.
Personally, I've never had someone come in and challenge me.

If you lose in that challenge, your students may lose faith in you. IMO, strength is one thing that you must have if you are a MA instructor.

I give my students more credit for intelligence than that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What world do you live in that these sort of things happen?
I mean, reading your posts, it seems like you get challenged at least twice a week.
Personally, I've never had someone come in and challenge me.

Have you ever had a guy who

- knocked on your front door and challenge you in your living room?
- walked into your class in front of your students and asked for a challenge fight?
- changed you right after you have finished your workshop (in front of all of your students) with punch/kick only (no throws because the challenger was bad in wrestling)?
- walked into your school and challenged you punch only (because the challenger had back kicking skill)?
- challenged you in arm wrestling (because the challenger thought he was stronger than you)?
- challenged you by using a bear hug from behind in a parking lot just to see if you can get out?
- ...

I have experienced all of the above.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Have you ever had a guy who

- knocked on your front door and challenge you in your living room?

Nope. As described, that's not a challenge, it's a home invasion. My response is likely to be loud, messy, and involve a handgun and a cadaver.

- walked into your class in front of your students and asked for a challenge fight?

Nope.

- changed you right after you have finished your workshop (in front of all of your students) with punch/kick only (no throws because the challenger was bad in wrestling)?

Nope.

- walked into your school and challenge you punch only (because the challenger had back kicking skill)?

Nope.

- challenged you in arm wrestling (because the challenger thought he was stronger than you)?

Nope.

- challenged you by using a bear hug behind in a parking lot just see how you might be able to counter him?

Nope. As described, that would be an assault, not a challenge, and would result in a response that would not be intended to inflict minimal injury.

- ...

I have experienced all the above.

Welcome to America in the 21st Century.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Welcome to America in the 21st Century.

All those challenges happened in US. Only the workshop challenge happened in Wilhelmshaven, Germany. The challenger just won the Europe champion that year.

 

[Mider]

If you are a MA instructor, someone challenges you arm wrestling in the public, will you accept that challenge?

If you lose in that challenge, your students may lose faith in you. IMO, strength is one thing that you must have if you are a MA instructor.

Um what? Why would I have an arm wrestling challenge as an MA instructor...

 

[Mider]

Have you ever had a guy who

- knocked on your front door and challenge you in your living room?
- walked into your class in front of your students and asked for a challenge fight?
- changed you right after you have finished your workshop (in front of all of your students) with punch/kick only (no throws because the challenger was bad in wrestling)?
- walked into your school and challenged you punch only (because the challenger had back kicking skill)?
- challenged you in arm wrestling (because the challenger thought he was stronger than you)?
- challenged you by using a bear hug from behind in a parking lot just to see if you can get out?
- ...

I have experienced all of the above.

No, I’d say leave or ill call the police...

no again as I’m not an instructor, second it’s illegal to fight, you can be sued if you cause injury or death unless you have a release.

if I did have a release I likely wouldn’t fight either, I am not a violent person. If I was in a horrible mood I may tell him if he wants to fight it would be no rules and likely hurt the guy very badly..

 

[Mider]

Nope. As described, that's not a challenge, it's a home invasion. My response is likely to be loud, messy, and involve a handgun and a cadaver.

Nope.

Nope.

Nope.

Nope.

Nope. As described, that would be an assault, not a challenge, and would result in a response that would not be intended to inflict minimal injury.

Welcome to America in the 21st Century.

Not even worth having these fights and get sued. Even if you get a release why fight and hurt someone over bravado

 

[JowGaWolf]

Have you ever had a guy who

- knocked on your front door and challenge you in your living room?
- walked into your class in front of your students and asked for a challenge fight?
- changed you right after you have finished your workshop (in front of all of your students) with punch/kick only (no throws because the challenger was bad in wrestling)?
- walked into your school and challenged you punch only (because the challenger had back kicking skill)?
- challenged you in arm wrestling (because the challenger thought he was stronger than you)?
- challenged you by using a bear hug from behind in a parking lot just to see if you can get out?
- ...

I have experienced all of the above.

I've never been formally challenge before. Probably because of how I look. I never had anyone doubt what I teach either. I'm living the good life as far as martial arts challenges go.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not even worth having these fights and get sued. Even if you get a release why fight and hurt someone over bravado

Sometime it's difficult to tell a challenge is friendly or unfriendly. The risk is always there. But do you think the challenge fight can be an excellent chance to test your MA skill? I do believe street fight can be worse.

If I challenge someone that if he can hit my

- head within the initial 20 punches, or
- body within the initial 20 kicks,

he wins, otherwise I win. Why is it not a good idea for that person to accept my challenge? There is no risk for him to accept my challenge. All he needs to do is attack. He doesn't even have to worry about defense. This is what I will call the friendly challenge.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've never been formally challenge before. Probably because of how I look. I never had anyone doubt what I teach either. I'm living the good life as far as martial arts challenges go.

May be you and I do live on a different planet.

Believe it or not, I even have 7 of my own students who challenged me. One of my students went to train MT for 1 year and half. He then came back and challenged me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it’s illegal to fight, you can be sued if you cause injury or death unless you have a release.

The praying mantis master Brendan Lai once accepted a challenge. The fighting rule was simple. Brendan was going to throw only 1 punch. If his opponent could block it, his opponent won, otherwise Brendan won.

My senior brother David C. K. Lin once accepted a challenge. The fighting rule was also simple. David would attack 3 times. If in any one of David's 3 attack, his opponent could remain standing, his opponent won, otherwise, David won.

Most of the challenge fights won't cause serious injury, death, or law sue. It's just a chance to test your MA skill against a stranger.

 

[JowGaWolf]

May be you and I do live on a different planet.

Believe it or not, I even have 7 of my own students who challenged me. One of my students went to train MT for 1 year and half. He then came back and challenged me.

Yep. I'm pretty sure I'm on a different planet

I probably don't get many challenges because I spar to learn. Even when I teach, I don't look amazing. If you look at my videos, hitting me or kicking me 20 times doesn't look like a worth while challenge. I'll be the first to say that for the most part, I look like an easy win lol.
Instead of people challenging me that they can pull my finger. I offer people to pull my finger and almost everyone says no

 

[JowGaWolf]

The praying mantis master Brendan Lai once accepted a challenge. The fighting rule was simple. Brendan was going to throw only 1 punch. If his opponent could block it, his opponent won, otherwise Brendan won.

My senior brother David C. K. Lin once accepted a challenge. The fighting rule was also simple. David would attack 3 times. If in any one of David's 3 attack, his opponent could remain standing, his opponent won, otherwise, David won.

Most of the challenge fights won't cause serious injury, death, or law sue. It's just a chance to test your MA skill against a stranger.

Challenge fights for me are different. For me, a challenge fight is someone who wants to prove that what I teach is trash by beating me up in a fight. If I lose, then he will get to brag about how he beat the kung fu teacher up. Then my students will lose confidence in my ability. If I can't protect myself with Kung Fu then how can they protect themselves.

Challenge fight to me is like the MMA vs Kung Fu Master stuff.

The things that you describe are more like skill challenges. For example, I can challenge you to see who can kick more times in a minute and you may win that one. Then you can challenge me to see who can do more punches in a minute then I may win that one. These type things are good for training. The way that I think of challenges isn't. If I had a school and someone came in to challenge me, then I would have them sign the wavier for sparring, and then I would have them sign another wavier stating that they wanted to spar with me to see if I knew how to use my techniques. This would be an unfriendly challenge.

A friendly challenge for me would be just 2 people working their skills on each other and giving tips when big costly mistakes are made. For example, when your sparring partner could have knocked your head off your shoulder because you dropped your guard, but instead of hitting you he let you know that you were dropping the guard in a bad way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For me, a challenge fight is someone who wants to prove that what I teach is trash by beating me up in a fight. If I lose, then he will get to brag about how he beat the kung fu teacher up.

There are challenge fights like that too.

One day I just started my class. A guy walked in. He bowed to me, and said, "May I have a sparring with you?" I had my 50 students all watched at me. My SC teacher also was with me too. There was no way that I could turn down that challenge. The match lasted for only 5 seconds. I jumped in, took him down, I then started my class. Back in, a take down, or knock down is the end of a fight (no ground game during those years).

As far as I remember, I have not turned down any challenge fights in my life. When I was young, I wanted to accumulate as much fighting experience as I could.

I had also challenged other people too. The challenge fight is always a 2 ways street.