I think im going to have to stop strength training

JowGaWolf

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Oh man. lol. This got way more complicated than I thought it'd be.

I'll bail from this discussion. lol. It's hard to articulate all of what I have to say to this. lol.
It's up to you. I won't ask any more questions
 

Zombocalypse

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I don't use gloves to punch heavy bags unless my knuckles start to bruise, then I'll put on light gloves to protect my knuckles for a little longer.

I use 10 pound weights around my wrists to train my long guard and at the same time do footwork in at 3 levels. I start off with a high stance and finish up in low stance. The 10 pound weights around my wrist help to build the muscles involved with holding my guard up. Ideally I would use this if I'm going to do any punches as it allows the weight to move as I punch instead of sitting on the end of my wrist.
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I also use an 8lb slam ball to train my grip and arm strength while doing specific tiger techniques. When I train my staff, I use a heavier staff and do grip training exercises that are specific to the use of the staff. If I was training kali, then I would probably invest in a bian for strength training and go through some of my techniques using the bian.
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When I hit the heavy bag I work on the following things.
1. Core strength building because my core is powering my punch which means I need continue to turn my core into the bag and not just stop. This works and strengthens my waist.

2. Impact conditioning this help conditions my arm, tendons, and ligaments, joint, and knuckles so that when I strike the bag, I'm not damaging those areas. Lots of guys who lift weights in the gym cannot hit the heavy bag like I can. If I hit the heavy bag soft, then I'm working on conditioning. If I hit it with 50% power then I'm working on technique. If I'm hitting it at 100% power then I'm working on power and technique.

3. I don't get cardio from the heavy bag. I don't need the heavy bag to train cardio. I do footwork drills, forms, and kung fu shadow boxing for cardio. My own opinion is that heavy bags aren't good for cardio. It's good for other things but not for cardio. Bags and grappling dummies are good for strength building in this manner.
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This type of training makes it easier throw people, because I strengthen the muscles.
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Here's a clip from one of my workout sessions during the summer. Staff training with rings. Then 130 squats with a 20lb weight. This both exercises strengthens the legs and arms. Both are part of my martial arts training. The staff with weights also keeps the technique

None of the exercises I do will make me bigger. They will make me stronger but I'm not going to gain a lot of muscle mass. I'm not going to look like a body builder from doing these types of exercises but I will be stronger.

But do you see my point? Dude, ten pounds attached to your wrists is no joke. That takes some strength. It is a form of strength training.

But if we're talking about "sticks", then that's not strength training. Sticks are like what? Two pounds at most?

The point remains, in order to get strong, you gotta lift heavy or have heavy resistance on movement. You training your guard with ten pounds will build your combat-specific strength more effectively than some guy using only five pounds.

Now here's the thing... Bodybuilders, powerlifters, and Olympic lifters use far far heavier resistance than what you're doing. And that's the point I was trying to make. To build "pure strength", you gotta lift very heavy. Strong, stronger, and strongest are relative terms.

Maybe it's just me, but I do think that strength training and technique training must be separated. Maybe you would disagree with me but I do believe that front raises, side raises, and rear-delt raises with heavy dumbbells are far better at building shoulder strength and power than your ten-pound guard training. For combat-specific strength, your method might be best. But heavy lifting will build you up far better than what you're doing. And that's why people must treat the two things as separate.
 
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Tigerwarrior

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First off I want to thank everyone who came in here to help me, I appreciate all of you, and thanks for the help. I liked jowgawolf idea of using resistance in my regular training. And I'm gonna look into the recommendations you all gave me. One day in the future when I either get a better income or start teaching full time I'll have the luxury of training everything. Thanks you guys.
 

JowGaWolf

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But do you see my point? Dude, ten pounds attached to your wrists is no joke. That takes some strength. It is a form of strength training.
But it's incorporated into my kung fu training. It's not separate from kung fu. It's part of my kung fu training.

But if we're talking about "sticks", then that's not strength training. Sticks are like what? Two pounds at most?
Get a heavier stick. I think Bians (Iron whip) weigh about 10 pounds or more.

The point remains, in order to get strong, you gotta lift heavy or have heavy resistance on movement. You training your guard with ten pounds will build your combat-specific strength more effectively than some guy using only five pounds.
The weight isn't the issue. The issue is do you only lift weights or do you incorporate it into your training of a technique. I could easily just stand with my arms out but that doesn't benefit my guard, nor my footwork. It doesn't reproduce how the movement of my body affects the weight on my wrist. It doesn't requirement to constantly adjust the weight as I move. All of that is important to the strength of my technique.

If you do them separately then it takes longer and you actually get less out of it than you would by doing them separately. My punching and the weights on my arm are done separately because I use the 10 pound wrist weights and not my rings (which are rusted). You will have times where you need to do them separately because of safety reasons, but for the majority of the time you should be incorporating strength training within training the technique. This way the technique gets stronger, because you are strength training the motion and all the elements that are involved in making it.

Now here's the thing... Bodybuilders, powerlifters, and Olympic lifters use far far heavier resistance than what you're doing. And that's the point I was trying to make. To build "pure strength", you gotta lift very heavy. Strong, stronger, and strongest are relative terms.
Of course they do. I'm not trying to bodybuild. My strength is directly related to my technique. Anything outside of that may be a weak point for me. Standing or moving in while in a horse stance takes a different type of strength then what is used to push heavy weight. For example, my strong horse stance doesn't mean that I can squat a lot of weight. Squatting a lot of weight doesn't mean that I'll have a strong horse stance.

As impressive as this looks. This is not a martial arts horse stance. So doing this doesn't guarantee that he'll have a strong horsestance, nor does it guarantee that he would be able to move effectively in a horse stance. Will it make him stronger? Of course. Will it make his fighting stance stronger? Probably not
dumbbell-goblet-squat.png
 

Zombocalypse

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I got good results this year just by training at home less than six hours a week, so proof by existence. Maybe some of that was due to muscle memory as I used lift a lot, but sill, 4-5 hours does indeed do ****.

Please define "results". From how much lean body mass to how much lean body mass at the end? From X pounds on key lifts to X+? pounds on key lifts?

If, for example, your bench press goes from 150 pounds for five reps to 250 pounds for five reps, then maybe I'll start listening. But "results" is not just adding 20 to 30 pounds on a key lift. I can probably spend only three hours a week, ever week, for a period of time to add that much to my lift back when I was still a newbie. But you'll easily stall until you start working harder.
 

Zombocalypse

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But it's incorporated into my kung fu training. It's not separate from kung fu. It's part of my kung fu training.


Get a heavier stick. I think Bians (Iron whip) weigh about 10 pounds or more.


The weight isn't the issue. The issue is do you only lift weights or do you incorporate it into your training of a technique. I could easily just stand with my arms out but that doesn't benefit my guard, nor my footwork. It doesn't reproduce how the movement of my body affects the weight on my wrist. It doesn't requirement to constantly adjust the weight as I move. All of that is important to the strength of my technique.

If you do them separately then it takes longer and you actually get less out of it than you would by doing them separately. My punching and the weights on my arm are done separately because I use the 10 pound wrist weights and not my rings (which are rusted). You will have times where you need to do them separately because of safety reasons, but for the majority of the time you should be incorporating strength training within training the technique. This way the technique gets stronger, because you are strength training the motion and all the elements that are involved in making it.


Of course they do. I'm not trying to bodybuild. My strength is directly related to my technique. Anything outside of that may be a weak point for me. Standing or moving in while in a horse stance takes a different type of strength then what is used to push heavy weight. For example, my strong horse stance doesn't mean that I can squat a lot of weight. Squatting a lot of weight doesn't mean that I'll have a strong horse stance.

As impressive as this looks. This is not a martial arts horse stance. So doing this doesn't guarantee that he'll have a strong horsestance, nor does it guarantee that he would be able to move effectively in a horse stance. Will it make him stronger? Of course. Will it make his fighting stance stronger? Probably not
dumbbell-goblet-squat.png

lol.

I can completely understand your point, my friend. But my overall philosophy is in disagreement with it.

Sport-specific (or in your case, combat-specific) training should be executed as close as possible to the actual sport-specific movement. A sprinter training for a faster sprint should train sprinting with his bodyweight, not add weighted vest and sprint. Instead, he should separate the two. Train heavy with key lifts, train for explosiveness with key explosive lifts, and then finally, do actual sprinting as close as possible to how you'd do it in a sprinting competition.

But please, I respect your way of thinking. It makes sense. It's just that I see things differently.

Thanks for your time. It's not everyday I get to discuss these things with someone. Thanks.
 

MetalBoar

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But it's incorporated into my kung fu training. It's not separate from kung fu. It's part of my kung fu training.


Get a heavier stick. I think Bians (Iron whip) weigh about 10 pounds or more.


The weight isn't the issue. The issue is do you only lift weights or do you incorporate it into your training of a technique. I could easily just stand with my arms out but that doesn't benefit my guard, nor my footwork. It doesn't reproduce how the movement of my body affects the weight on my wrist. It doesn't requirement to constantly adjust the weight as I move. All of that is important to the strength of my technique.

If you do them separately then it takes longer and you actually get less out of it than you would by doing them separately. My punching and the weights on my arm are done separately because I use the 10 pound wrist weights and not my rings (which are rusted). You will have times where you need to do them separately because of safety reasons, but for the majority of the time you should be incorporating strength training within training the technique. This way the technique gets stronger, because you are strength training the motion and all the elements that are involved in making it.


Of course they do. I'm not trying to bodybuild. My strength is directly related to my technique. Anything outside of that may be a weak point for me. Standing or moving in while in a horse stance takes a different type of strength then what is used to push heavy weight. For example, my strong horse stance doesn't mean that I can squat a lot of weight. Squatting a lot of weight doesn't mean that I'll have a strong horse stance.

As impressive as this looks. This is not a martial arts horse stance. So doing this doesn't guarantee that he'll have a strong horsestance, nor does it guarantee that he would be able to move effectively in a horse stance. Will it make him stronger? Of course. Will it make his fighting stance stronger? Probably not
dumbbell-goblet-squat.png
I know we've gone around and around about this and I don't want to beat a dead horse but I'm going to take another quick whack at it. For the most part muscular strength is strength. If you've strengthened all the muscles that are engaged in a horse stance it doesn't matter how you've done it, the muscles are completely unaware of whether the stimulus was provided by machine weights or free weights or having your little brother stand on your shoulders while you're in a deep horse stance. It's generally much more efficient and safer to lift weights to develop strength than to try to mix your weighted strength training with martial arts movements.

Practical application of strength also takes skill. The research indicates that for most people it is much faster to develop a motor skill by practicing it exactly as you intend to apply it, so without weights on your arms or wherever, that aren't going to be there when you perform the skill for real. Some people transfer skill between similar activities very well, and you may be one of these people, but that is not true for the average person walking down the street. For the average person it is much more efficient to break the two activities apart.
 

JowGaWolf

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Sport-specific (or in your case, combat-specific) training should be executed as close as possible to the actual sport-specific movement. A sprinter training for a faster sprint should train sprinting with his bodyweight, not add weighted vest and sprint. Instead, he should separate the two. Train heavy with key lifts, train for explosiveness with key explosive lifts, and then finally, do actual sprinting as close as possible to how you'd do it in a sprinting competition.
Training for speed and training for strength are 2 different goals. You never said you wanted to train for speed. I ran track and cross country competitively for 6 years and never made it a goal to lift weights to be stronger or faster. Speed and strength were developed by sprinting up steep hills. Gravity provided the extra weight. Running up hills also taught us how to lean forward when running which improved our technique. I was one of the top runners in the state for sprinting.

Explosiveness is trained differently. I have a video of me training Explosiveness. Explosive lifts won't help unless you are lifting something. Explosive high steps will help with running and kicking and kneeling. Explosive knee lifts is less about using your legs and more about pushing off something using your foot with the heel off the ground. I can do explosive squats with weights all day and still have a tiny vertical or a weak push off. I was skinny as a teen but my legs were well developed and people were shocked that I didn't lift weights.
 

Zombocalypse

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I know we've gone around and around about this and I don't want to beat a dead horse but I'm going to take another quick whack at it. For the most part muscular strength is strength. If you've strengthened all the muscles that are engaged in a horse stance it doesn't matter how you've done it, the muscles are completely unaware of whether the stimulus was provided by machine weights or free weights or having your little brother stand on your shoulders while you're in a deep horse stance. It's generally much more efficient and safer to lift weights to develop strength than to try to mix your weighted strength training with martial arts movements.

Practical application of strength also takes skill. The research indicates that for most people it is much faster to develop a motor skill by practicing it exactly as you intend to apply it, so without weights on your arms or wherever, that aren't going to be there when you perform the skill for real. Some people transfer skill between similar activities very well, and you may be one of these people, but that is not true for the average person walking down the street. For the average person it is much more efficient to break the two activities apart.

Well said. But you have to put stock on the value of sport-specific training. There's nothing wrong with building muscle through more complex, "functional" movements. Within reason of course.

Ultimately, there's general body strength which is best achieved through modern weight training methods, and then there's sport-specific strength that requires doing movements that mimics, as close possible, the actual movement. JowGaWolf is doing fine in that regard. My real beef with his ideas is how he thinks his dynamic, complex martial arts moves provide as good of a stimulation as actual weight training.

It doesn't. Not even close.
 

JowGaWolf

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If you've strengthened all the muscles that are engaged in a horse stance
But that's the problem. The machines don't target all of the muscles that are used when doing a horse stance. Machines don't even put you in the same structure. Then add movement and that structure changes. Like guys who think lifting weights equals powerful punches yet boxers train punches more frequently than the lift weights. This is why I say I like resistance bands. They allow me to train the and strengthen the motion I'm actually training to use with structure that is being used.
 

JowGaWolf

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JowGaWolf is doing fine in that regard. My real beef with his ideas is how he thinks his dynamic, complex martial arts moves provide as good of a stimulation as actual weight training
I didn't say this. I'm pretty sure I gave an example of someone doing a squat with weights and said that he would get stronger but probably not with a horse stance because his structure wasn't in a horse stance. I also posted a video of me doing a similar exercise but I'm in a horse stance I don't go as low as he does and I position my muscular structure so that I can easily do lateral movement. I also walk with the weight so that other muscular structures are strengthen. Including stabilizing elements. This doesn't mean I'll be stronger. But it does mean I'll be stronger for the horse stance. I belive the video stated that I did 130 squats. Are you telling me that I won't get strong from that?
 

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Martial arts requires strength so how do you separate strength building from it? With or without weights a person will still need to build strength
I thought part of martial arts raison d礙tre was that large amounts of strength is not required? Technique overcomes brute force. Little Judoka throw hulking Westerners around. Aged Aikidoka flip their opponents all over the mat with a flick of their withered wrist. Skilled Karateka strike vital points almost supernaturally felling them like trees in the Amazon (). Ordinary people of average strength are supposed to be able to overcome stronger enemies thanks to their martial arts training.
 

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Please define "results". From how much lean body mass to how much lean body mass at the end? From X pounds on key lifts to X+? pounds on key lifts?

If, for example, your bench press goes from 150 pounds for five reps to 250 pounds for five reps, then maybe I'll start listening. But "results" is not just adding 20 to 30 pounds on a key lift. I can probably spend only three hours a week, ever week, for a period of time to add that much to my lift back when I was still a newbie. But you'll easily stall until you start working harder.
We're not talking super duper optimal BESTEST program in existence with perfect conditions. There are many ways to go about building strength, some take longer but are just as viable and still are fantastic forms of incorporating exercise and building strength throughout your week. And more importantly, it needs to suit your lifestyle or you're not gonna be willing to do it. Also, adding 20 or 30 pounds to lift is a big deal for some people. Things need not be so absolute.
 

JowGaWolf

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I thought part of martial arts raison d礙tre was that large amounts of strength is not required?
nope not true. PeopleThis confuse that with "don't muscle through your techniques"
Does this look like muscle takes a back seat to martial arts training? Most people don't go through this training because they aren't using martial arts to fight.
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Buka

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lol.

I can completely understand your point, my friend. But my overall philosophy is in disagreement with it.

Sport-specific (or in your case, combat-specific) training should be executed as close as possible to the actual sport-specific movement. A sprinter training for a faster sprint should train sprinting with his bodyweight, not add weighted vest and sprint. Instead, he should separate the two. Train heavy with key lifts, train for explosiveness with key explosive lifts, and then finally, do actual sprinting as close as possible to how you'd do it in a sprinting competition.

But please, I respect your way of thinking. It makes sense. It's just that I see things differently.

Thanks for your time. It's not everyday I get to discuss these things with someone. Thanks.
I really like this post.
 

JowGaWolf

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Technique overcomes brute force.
Technique magnifies force. Think of a strong leg trying to do a side kick with bad technique. The kick will be weak even though the leg is strong. Real life example. For many of the students here, the issue isn't strong legs. It's bad technique. Their legs have enough strength to break the board, but they lack the technique to deliver the kick. For those who can barely lift their legs to kick then the issue is both strength and technique.
 

MetalBoar

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Hey there @JowGaWolf, I know you and I tend to go around and around on this subject when it comes up and I know I express my opinions pretty bluntly on the topic. Before I go on, I want to say that I really like what you're doing with your kung fu and I always find your posts about it interesting and insightful. The fact that we really disagree about strength training doesn't take anything away from my respect for what you're doing with MA. In fact, I think it's probably because I do really respect your MA work that causes me to keep banging on about what I think you're missing about strength training when it comes up.

But that's the problem. The machines don't target all of the muscles that are used when doing a horse stance. Machines don't even put you in the same structure. Then add movement and that structure changes. Like guys who think lifting weights equals powerful punches yet boxers train punches more frequently than the lift weights. This is why I say I like resistance bands. They allow me to train the and strengthen the motion I'm actually training to use with structure that is being used.
So, what muscles can't be trained with machine weights that are needed for horse stance?

Training with a resistance bands as you describe may work well for you because you are one of the outliers that easily transfers skill development between two similar activities (which is not the norm) or it may seem efficient to you because of biases you have against weight lifting, or some combination thereof. Why do you think you need to be in the same structure in order to strengthen the same muscles? What part of taking a muscle through its full range of anatomically appropriate movement (or something close to it - certainly a range that encompasses the entirety of the range in which a horse stance takes place) is lacking from a strength building perspective?

Boxers spend more time training punches than lifting weights for a variety of reasons. Off the top of my head:
  1. As I've been saying, you don't have to spend much time lifting weights to get stronger. Spending a little time with a good strength training program goes a long way. That's in fact (in my opinion) the whole point. Don't spend your time lifting weights, spend it training skills. Spend exactly as much time (very little) doing a weight lifting routine as necessary to stimulate the muscles to get stronger, and no more.
  2. Because there was a myth that was prevalent in boxing (and a lot of other sports) for a long time that weight lifting makes you slow and it still impacts training methodologies, even if only through the inertia of tradition.
  3. Boxing has weight divisions and so if you aren't a heavyweight there's a tension between gaining strength and staying in your weight division.
I've never said that people can't get stronger by doing martial arts, nor have I said that they can't get stronger doing the things you describe to increase the work involved in performing a MA movement. I do say that it's faster, safer, and more efficient to do a quality weight lifting routine and that there's a cap to how strong someone can practically get without using weights or some form of significant and increasable resistance. That cap will be higher or lower depending on what alternate method they use and it may be so high as to be irrelevant for some people, based on their genetics and their goals. If that's the case, and they really like their methods and/or really dislike lifting weights, then that's great, but it's still a more round about approach, can be more subject to greater risk of injury, and shouldn't be represented as the best approach.
 

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So schedule is crazy. I'm lucky to squeeze in my martial arts solo training and classes, but with the addition of strength training recently its getting to be too much. I Like the results I have got, but it's literally a battle for time. Some days I have to decide between the two because I don't have time for both. Strength training is good but its a supplement to my training, my art means more to me and I don't feel right chosing between it and lifting on some days. The art matters way more to me. I have gotten good gains from the strength work and I hope I get to keep them, but I'm only gonna have the time to train kali and not do my supplemental strength stuff. Is it possible to gain strength through just my kali training? We do alot of stick work, but no calisthenics or anything like that. But in order to continue to keep moving forward in my skills I have to get rid of the lifting. So for now just pure technical training.
I started BJJ training just wanting to check it out and found out ya can build strength through that plus its a good workout and one hell of a blast and loads of fun on top of that even though I am a white belt and find my self on my side 100% of the time!!!!!!
 
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