The Direction Of Ken(m)po

[Flying Crane]

This is all I need from that post to make my point.
I agree that Kenpo is not a good fit for everyone.
I do not, however, agree that it does not work for everyone. This comment comes from someone who obviously has no idea what Kenpo is. So until you decide to learn what Kenpo is you will never be able to understand what is wrong with this comment.
and to deny what I just said is refusing to accept reality.

I recommend if you are going to continue to comment on Kenpo that you learn what Kenpo is, and not what you want it to be.

If it is not a good fit for everyone, and yet it does work for everyone, how does that make any sense at all?

This becomes silly because you and I are arguing about me. Specifically, I say it does not work for me. You say it must! what kind of argument is that?

I generally limit my postings in kenpo to issues where the perspective of a non-kenpoist would be appropriate. I have no interest in arguing the finer points of the Five Swords, etc. But whether or not I post in kenpo, I will not ask your permission.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

OK, take this for what it is worth since I am not nor have I ever been a Kenpo person but from what I am reading here it appears to me that he knows what Kenpo is and if nothing else he knows it “is” not for him. And that you are hell bent on makeing us all say it is the perfect MA for all.

I watched a Kenpo class a little while back and I also know It is not for me and after over 30 years in MA I think I know that it would not work for me and why. Does that mean it is bad? No it doesn’t it means it is not for me much like a pair of size 12 shoes is not for me because they do not fit.

where did I ever say it was the perfect MA for all?
see its misconceptions like that which lead to disagreements.
He has a preconcieved idea of what Kenpo is, where he got that I have no idea, but what he keeps making claims about what kenpo is is nothing like what I know Kenpo to be.
let me ask you a question, you watched 1 class a while back, and knew from that one class that it would not work for you? Now why is that? What did you see in that 1 class defined Kenpo as an art that would not work for you?

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

If it is not a good fit for everyone, and yet it does work for everyone, how does that make any sense at all?

This becomes silly because you and I are arguing about me. Specifically, I say it does not work for me. You say it must! what kind of argument is that?

I generally limit my postings in kenpo to issues where the perspective of a non-kenpoist would be appropriate. I have no interest in arguing the finer points of the Five Swords, etc. But whether or not I post in kenpo, I will not ask your permission.

let me ask you this. can you stand on two feet? Can you bend your knees? Can you walk? Can you raise both hands above your head? Can you hold your arms out in front of you? Can you see? Can you talk? can you ask questions? Well if y ou answeres yes to all those then I guarantee you can do kenpo and make it work. the problem is not that the system does not work, but you want to do something different.
I can think of hundreds of valid reasons for someone to study another art and not kenpo, but not one of those is because Kenpo doesnt work.
You don't need my permission I never said that, I just sick of reading nonsense from someone who has no idea what they are talking about, who has never made an honest effort to understand the art, and who continues to bash it any chance they get even though they say they are not interested in it.
Have I ever knocked the art you train in? NO.
Have I ever said your art wont work? NO.
I will say the same thing about your art I have said about mine. If a persons goals are different from the goals of the art then they are incompatible, but it does not mean that they wont work.

 

[Xue Sheng]

where did I ever say it was the perfect MA for all?
see its misconceptions like that which lead to disagreements.
He has a preconcieved idea of what Kenpo is, where he got that I have no idea, but what he keeps making claims about what kenpo is is nothing like what I know Kenpo to be.
let me ask you a question, you watched 1 class a while back, and knew from that one class that it would not work for you? Now why is that? What did you see in that 1 class defined Kenpo as an art that would not work for you?

Why would you think it would work for me?

I saw a nice pair of size 12 Reeboks the other day just once and that was the largest size they had.... but I'm a size 14....

 

[yorkshirelad]

If it is not a good fit for everyone, and yet it does work for everyone, how does that make any sense at all?

This becomes silly because you and I are arguing about me. Specifically, I say it does not work for me. quote]

Let me get this straight, Kenpo does not work for you, but Capoeira does..........Bwaaaaa ha ha ha ha (snort) ha ha ha. :rofl:

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Why would you think it would work for me?

I saw a nice pair of size 12 Reeboks the other day just once and that was the largest size they had.... but I'm a size 14....

because Kenpo is not a cookie cutter art. Its a science based on logic, and it is tailored to each individuals strengths and weaknesses.
think of Kenpo not as the size 12 reeboks, nor as the store that carries a certain number and selection of different shoes, but think of it as the science of making shoes, so that you learn what it takes to make the shoes, and you can make the shoes you choose to.

thats why I say kenpo will work for anyone, it is not an easy thing, but nothing is easy except maybe pulling the trigger on a gun at an attacker. Some people however do not want to know all of that, and instead chose to go buy a size 14 shoe and call it a day.

now you started the wierd shoe scenario, I just tried to present in a way that represents kenpo haha

 

[Flying Crane]

let me ask you this. can you stand on two feet? Can you bend your knees? Can you walk? Can you raise both hands above your head? Can you hold your arms out in front of you? Can you see? Can you talk? can you ask questions? Well if y ou answeres yes to all those then I guarantee you can do kenpo and make it work.

Me? no. You? Sure, I'll buy that.

the problem is not that the system does not work, but you want to do something different.

The problem is that the system is unworkable and not useful for me. No matter how well it works for you.

I can think of hundreds of valid reasons for someone to study another art and not kenpo, but not one of those is because Kenpo doesnt work.

I didnt' say it doesn't work. The horde of kenpoists out there are testament to the fact that many people feel it works quite well. But there are those for whom it does not work.

You don't need my permission I never said that, I just sick of reading nonsense from someone who has no idea what they are talking about, who has never made an honest effort to understand the art, and who continues to bash it any chance they get even though they say they are not interested in it.

the funniest part about this is that this little disagreement we are having arose because I actually suggested that someone who studies kenpo might find answers within kenpo instead of feeling like he needs to look elsewhere. That's just hilarious!

I will say the same thing about your art I have said about mine. If a persons goals are different from the goals of the art then they are incompatible, but it does not mean that they wont work.

If they are incompatible, then they will not work.

I'll ask you again since you didn't answer the first time: what are my goals and how do they differ from kenpo? And given that I have no recollection of ever stating my goals here or publically elsewhere, how do you know what my goals are?

 

[Flying Crane]

Lucky, I fell like there's something you want from me. A declaration, an admission, a promise, something. I don't know what it is.

Lay it on me.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Lucky, I fell like there's something you want from me. A declaration, an admission, a promise, something. I don't know what it is.

Lay it on me.

nothing.
I just got irritated after reading so many posts from you here and mroe specifically on kenpotalk about how Kenpo doesn't work. I just read one post to many, especially coming from someone who has said on multiple occasions they didn't study it long, and can never describe what Kenpo is. I just really don't get the vendetta against Kenpo you seem to have... Trust me there is plenty wrong with kenpo practitioners... but thats a much different thing then a problem with the art itself, besides most of those problems can be shown to exist in many others arts practitioners as well.

 

[Flying Crane]

nothing.
I just got irritated after reading so many posts from you here and mroe specifically on kenpotalk about how Kenpo doesn't work. I just read one post to many, especially coming from someone who has said on multiple occasions they didn't study it long, and can never describe what Kenpo is. I just really don't get the vendetta against Kenpo you seem to have... Trust me there is plenty wrong with kenpo practitioners... but thats a much different thing then a problem with the art itself, besides most of those problems can be shown to exist in many others arts practitioners as well.

there is this...

the funniest part about this is that this little disagreement we are having arose because I actually suggested that someone who studies kenpo might find answers within kenpo instead of feeling like he needs to look elsewhere. That's just hilarious!

 

[Xue Sheng]

where did I ever say it was the perfect MA for all?

thats why I say kenpo will work for anyone,

First explain the difference to me between "it is not perfect for all" and "it works for everyone"

On one hand you say it is not for everyone and then you say it is for everyone…. This is where the disagreement comes from

Now

because Kenpo is not a cookie cutter art. Its a science based on logic, and it is tailored to each individuals strengths and weaknesses.

think of Kenpo not as the size 12 reeboks, nor as the store that carries a certain number and selection of different shoes, but think of it as the science of making shoes, so that you learn what it takes to make the shoes, and you can make the shoes you choose to.
thats why I say kenpo will work for anyone, it is not an easy thing, but nothing is easy except maybe pulling the trigger on a gun at an attacker. Some people however do not want to know all of that, and instead chose to go buy a size 14 shoe and call it a day.
now you started the wierd shoe scenario, I just tried to present in a way that represents kenpo haha

I shall make a list

1) I never said it was a cookie cutter art, to be realistic no art is a cookie cutter art.

2) All arts use individual strengths and weaknesses

3) I will give you the shoe thing, to a point. One may learn the science for making shows and one may be able to make any number of styles and sizes of shoes but not all the shoes you make will fit everyone. They may not think they are comfortable, they may not like the look they may not like the design so even though you know how to make a shoe you still cannot make shoes that fit everyone. If that were the case then there would one be one shoe company. And I will add while in China I saw a pair of shoes I really wanted and the guy I talked to made them but he would not make them for me because my feet were to big. He knew the science of making shoes but told me none of his shoes would fit me

4) Kenpo does not work for me, kenpo does not work for my Sanda sifu or my Xingyiquan sifu or my Taijiquan sifu therefore it does not work for everyone. Basically this leads to no desire or need to train it

5) Actually I do not want to know how to make a shoe since I already know what shoe fits me and I already know that not all shoes fit me so why would I go learn how to make a shoe

He has a preconcieved idea of what Kenpo is, where he got that I have no idea, but what he keeps making claims about what kenpo is is nothing like what I know Kenpo to be.
let me ask you a question, you watched 1 class a while back, and knew from that one class that it would not work for you? Now why is that? What did you see in that 1 class defined Kenpo as an art that would not work for you?

By the way his concept of Kenpo comes form years of study with 2 different teachers I believe.

As to why it would not work for me, based on my over 30 years in MA it simply would not fit me personally. It would not work for me based on what I know about me and my personality and my approach to a fight. And before you go off on the “Its all scientific bent” all MA styles are based on the same physics and anatomy Kenpo is based on.

I am glad you like it and I am happy it works for you. I have nothing at all against it and I use to spar an American Kenpo guy rather regularly and he was a damn good fighter… but….simply stated…kenpo is not for me.

 

[K831]

If it is not a good fit for everyone, and yet it does work for everyone, how does that make any sense at all?

Can't speak for lucky, but I would explain it this way;

I have a friend who only drives big trucks. They are a good fit for him. He likes them, he uses their utility etc.

I have a friend who drives a Prius, and would never own a truck. The prius is a good fit for him, for many reasons.

Either of them could get in the others vehicle and drive to costco, go shopping successfully and come home with the groceries, successfully.

Either vehicle would "work" well for both, even though they may not be a good fit.

The point is, Kenpo is based on true principles, anyone who truly learns them will makes the system work for its intended purpose. However, it is understandable that aspects of Kenpo may not be someones "favorite" way to train or respond etc... so it may not be the best "fit" but that doesn't mean it wont "work" for them.

This becomes silly because you and I are arguing about me. Specifically, I say it does not work for me. You say it must! what kind of argument is that?

Hopefully the above explanation clarifies this as well. I have had friends train with me in Kenpo, and we were able to get them up to speed to where the system worked for them, they could fight with it. But, their heart still lied in a more kicking oriented art, or a more grappling oriented art etc... a better "fit". Kenpo still worked well however, it was simply a truck and they wanted a car.

First explain the difference to me between "it is not perfect for all" and "it works for everyone"

See above.

@ Crane - If you don't mind, I'm curious as to what lineage you studied under in American Kenpo. You can PM if you want. I don't want to start a political debate about lineages, however, I have been with several associations in American Kenpo, and with some of them, I had some of the feelings you described. I learned after some trial and error, that it wasn't "kenpo". The right combination of the right teacher, and the right association changed everything. Just a thought.

 

[Flying Crane]

I have a friend who only drives big trucks. They are a good fit for him. He likes them, he uses their utility etc.

I have a friend who drives a Prius, and would never own a truck. The prius is a good fit for him, for many reasons.

Either of them could get in the others vehicle and drive to costco, go shopping successfully and come home with the groceries, successfully.

Either vehicle would "work" well for both, even though they may not be a good fit.

The point is, Kenpo is based on true principles, anyone who truly learns them will makes the system work for its intended purpose. However, it is understandable that aspects of Kenpo may not be someones "favorite" way to train or respond etc... so it may not be the best "fit" but that doesn't mean it wont "work" for them.

I get the analogy, but I do not believe it applies. A martial art is not a product in the sense that an automobile is.

Kenpo has a curriculum structure and mindset and approach to training that does not work for me. I can't go over every detail to justify it. All I can say is, I've been connected to kenpo since 1984, tho I've had long stretches where I did not train it. But I've considered it to be my roots in the martial arts, the first thing I studied, and I came back to it for a few years to give it another go. With that, as I stated before, I realized I never felt confident with it, I could never use the material in a meaningful way.

My training in other things opened my eyes and made me understand why I didnt' feel confident with my kenpo: there was a wholy different approach to training and priorities that made much more sense to me. That other stuff works for me; the kenpo, as a whole system, does not tho I freely admit there are pieces here and there that I can find useful.

Every martial art that is worth anything is based on true principles. Kenpo does not have the monopoly on that. But different arts have different approaches to training, structuring the curriculum, prioritizing what is important, and bringing it together. The way kenpo does that, in my experience, doesn't work for me. The way other systems does that, does work for me.

I know me, and after over 25 years training in a few different things, I know what works for me and what does not. I appreciate the input, but at the same time I'm reaching a point of bemusement that this thread has sort of become about convincing me that kenpo MUST work for me somehow.

Let me back up a moment and qualify this point a bit. OK, I do not mean to say that kenpo for me would be absolutely useless, that I could use no part of it whatsoever. I could take the basics and use them to be a moderately effective and successful brawler. A handful of the SD techs might give me the material and know-how get me out of a scrape if someone tried to grab ahold of me somehow. So no, it's not 100% unuseable to me. I think it's important to recognize that we usually cannot speak in absolutes.

However, the vast majority of what is in the curriculum, that we work on and train, does not work for me and doesn't make sense to me as a training model and a curriculum. Much of it simply does not connect for me, and as a vehicle for self defense and/or pugilism, I do not believe kenpo would ever get me beyond moderately effective and successful.

I'm looking for more than that, and kenpo will not get me there.

Other systems however, for me, I believe will take me beyond that. The way the system is structured, the curriulum, the training methods, the very mindset and approach to the material is different, and it makes tremendous sense to me and that is a vehicle that I can embrace to rise to a higher level.

That is what I mean when I say, Kenpo does not work for me. It's not absolute. But relative to other methods, it does not work nearly as well for me.

@ Crane - If you don't mind, I'm curious as to what lineage you studied under in American Kenpo. You can PM if you want. I don't want to start a political debate about lineages, however, I have been with several associations in American Kenpo, and with some of them, I had some of the feelings you described. I learned after some trial and error, that it wasn't "kenpo". The right combination of the right teacher, and the right association changed everything. Just a thought.

I've never made a secret about my training. I've trained in the Tracy lineage in the 1980s, to Shodan. This thread was posted in the General Kenpo Section, so I did not assume it was strictly later lineages of kenpo. I drifted for a bunch of years while I was interested in other things, then a few years ago found a new teacher in Tracys and completely retrained to shodan and retested again. My last teacher is one of the best and senior-most teachers in the Tracy lineage. He is extremely skilled and knowledgeable, and honestly I learned a lot from him. I have infinite respect for him, and I want to make it clear that absolutely everything that I am saying in all this is ME, and in no way reflects on him. He has not failed me as a teacher, as a friend, as a kenpoist. He did his job remarkably well. It was ME who connected the dots based on my other experiences and realized that kenpo is not the best path for me and does not work well for me.

I appreciate the discussion on this, but we have really gone quite wide of the topic of this thread. I don't want to make this thread about me, and why kenpo does not work for me. I didn't intend that. Further discussion on that specifically, maybe should be taken to private messages, or even a new thread, I don't mind.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I get the analogy, but I do not believe it applies. A martial art is not a product in the sense that an automobile is.

Kenpo has a curriculum structure and mindset and approach to training that does not work for me. I can't go over every detail to justify it. All I can say is, I've been connected to kenpo since 1984, tho I've had long stretches where I did not train it. But I've considered it to be my roots in the martial arts, the first thing I studied, and I came back to it for a few years to give it another go. With that, as I stated before, I realized I never felt confident with it, I could never use the material in a meaningful way.

My training in other things opened my eyes and made me understand why I didnt' feel confident with my kenpo: there was a wholy different approach to training and priorities that made much more sense to me. That other stuff works for me; the kenpo, as a whole system, does not tho I freely admit there are pieces here and there that I can find useful.

Every martial art that is worth anything is based on true principles. Kenpo does not have the monopoly on that. But different arts have different approaches to training, structuring the curriculum, prioritizing what is important, and bringing it together. The way kenpo does that, in my experience, doesn't work for me. The way other systems does that, does work for me.

I know me, and after over 25 years training in a few different things, I know what works for me and what does not. I appreciate the input, but at the same time I'm reaching a point of bemusement that this thread has sort of become about convincing me that kenpo MUST work for me somehow.

Let me back up a moment and qualify this point a bit. OK, I do not mean to say that kenpo for me would be absolutely useless, that I could use no part of it whatsoever. I could take the basics and use them to be a moderately effective and successful brawler. A handful of the SD techs might give me the material and know-how get me out of a scrape if someone tried to grab ahold of me somehow. So no, it's not 100% unuseable to me. I think it's important to recognize that we usually cannot speak in absolutes.

However, the vast majority of what is in the curriculum, that we work on and train, does not work for me and doesn't make sense to me as a training model and a curriculum. Much of it simply does not connect for me, and as a vehicle for self defense and/or pugilism, I do not believe kenpo would ever get me beyond moderately effective and successful.

I'm looking for more than that, and kenpo will not get me there.

Other systems however, for me, I believe will take me beyond that. The way the system is structured, the curriulum, the training methods, the very mindset and approach to the material is different, and it makes tremendous sense to me and that is a vehicle that I can embrace to rise to a higher level.

That is what I mean when I say, Kenpo does not work for me. It's not absolute. But relative to other methods, it does not work nearly as well for me.



I've never made a secret about my training. I've trained in the Tracy lineage in the 1980s, to Shodan. This thread was posted in the General Kenpo Section, so I did not assume it was strictly later lineages of kenpo. I drifted for a bunch of years while I was interested in other things, then a few years ago found a new teacher in Tracys and completely retrained to shodan and retested again. My last teacher is one of the best and senior-most teachers in the Tracy lineage. He is extremely skilled and knowledgeable, and honestly I learned a lot from him. I have infinite respect for him, and I want to make it clear that absolutely everything that I am saying in all this is ME, and in no way reflects on him. He has not failed me as a teacher, as a friend, as a kenpoist. He did his job remarkably well. It was ME who connected the dots based on my other experiences and realized that kenpo is not the best path for me and does not work well for me.

I appreciate the discussion on this, but we have really gone quite wide of the topic of this thread. I don't want to make this thread about me, and why kenpo does not work for me. I didn't intend that. Further discussion on that specifically, maybe should be taken to private messages, or even a new thread, I don't mind.

I appreciate your position but, objectively, I would hate to have you judge what I do, from your experiences with some Tracy's Guy, but If Kenpo sucks it sucks. LOL
Sean

 

[Flying Crane]

I appreciate your position but, objectively, I would hate to have you judge what I do, from your experiences with some Tracy's Guy, but If Kenpo sucks it sucks. LOL
Sean

i aint' sayin' it sucks.

I'm only saying it doesn't work well for me, and I'm saying that every system will have people for whom it just doesn't come together and doesn't work. But that's a far cry from saying it sucks.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Can't speak for lucky, but I would explain it this way;

I have a friend who only drives big trucks. They are a good fit for him. He likes them, he uses their utility etc.

I have a friend who drives a Prius, and would never own a truck. The prius is a good fit for him, for many reasons.

Either of them could get in the others vehicle and drive to costco, go shopping successfully and come home with the groceries, successfully.

Either vehicle would "work" well for both, even though they may not be a good fit.

The point is, Kenpo is based on true principles, anyone who truly learns them will makes the system work for its intended purpose. However, it is understandable that aspects of Kenpo may not be someones "favorite" way to train or respond etc... so it may not be the best "fit" but that doesn't mean it wont "work" for them.



Hopefully the above explanation clarifies this as well. I have had friends train with me in Kenpo, and we were able to get them up to speed to where the system worked for them, they could fight with it. But, their heart still lied in a more kicking oriented art, or a more grappling oriented art etc... a better "fit". Kenpo still worked well however, it was simply a truck and they wanted a car.




See above.

@ Crane - If you don't mind, I'm curious as to what lineage you studied under in American Kenpo. You can PM if you want. I don't want to start a political debate about lineages, however, I have been with several associations in American Kenpo, and with some of them, I had some of the feelings you described. I learned after some trial and error, that it wasn't "kenpo". The right combination of the right teacher, and the right association changed everything. Just a thought.

I see the issue here...it's semantics.... I am not saying Kenpo does not work when I say it does not work for me... I am saying I have no desire to train it what-so-ever since I see no need “for me” to train it.