Fiendlover
Black Belt
now that I read what to look for in a mcdojo, I can kinda see some things that fit into my school and i kinda feel really ashamed and disappointed now.
The definition of a McDojo!!
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grydth
Senior Master
I got taken once many years back - badly. It is probably not the type of thing most want to speak of.
Brad Dunne
Brown Belt
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:barf:
:idunno::vu::jaw-dropping::lol2::shrug::eye-popping::erg::lfao:
:idunno::vu::jaw-dropping::lol2::shrug::eye-popping::erg::lfao:Our former McDojo http://www.govtkd.com/ which many of you know I have posted about here before.
wade
Black Belt
OK, before I am banned, see Charles, this is why I could never be Samantha's instructor, I could never ever measure up to your level. BTW, I will still be bringing about 5 female BB's to Vegas. If we have time and the weight classes are close, want a little scrimmage?
Gordon Nore
Senior Master
I think people are attracted to McDojo (particularly parents seeking a school for their kids) because they are looking for measurable results. McDojo look good to a consumer with no MA experience. They are built for customer service. In some of the links posted, and links I've seen elsewhere, and one McDojang I've visited, they have all kinds of ways of appealing to their greatest potential market -- parents buying lessons for kids.
Set all of the counter-arguments aside and look at what is appealing to the consumer...
McDojo/DoJang
I had a conversation with a neighbour who was thinking about enrolling her son in a storefront school -- from whence the master fled inside a year, leaving a trail of long-term contracts and enraged parents, I should add. I was trying, very gently, to explain to her that the most expensive commercial school on the nearest busy street isn't automatically a better martial arts experience than her child might have at the "Y" or a community centre.
McDojo look like the places parents are supposed to send their kids because many parents have bought into -- give my kid the best of everything. Newer, shinier, more expensive seems like a better value for the dollar. Given the choice, parents send their kids to a better-looking pre-school, or day-care, or even private school that offers more amenities.
Am I defending the content of what is provided. Of course not. However, the fancy looking McDojo also seem to deliver what many people want.
Set all of the counter-arguments aside and look at what is appealing to the consumer...
McDojo/DoJang
- are clean and bright
- have a reception desk, which makes people feel like they're being served
- an in-school store for one-stop shopping
- are relentlessly coloured red, white and blue, with flags and credos (red and white in my country)
- big websites
- programs for every need and desire, with an emphasis on 'your child's needs'
- salesmanship
Quick Edit, forgot to add... - All the photos of master and grandmaster
- A trophy case
I had a conversation with a neighbour who was thinking about enrolling her son in a storefront school -- from whence the master fled inside a year, leaving a trail of long-term contracts and enraged parents, I should add. I was trying, very gently, to explain to her that the most expensive commercial school on the nearest busy street isn't automatically a better martial arts experience than her child might have at the "Y" or a community centre.
McDojo look like the places parents are supposed to send their kids because many parents have bought into -- give my kid the best of everything. Newer, shinier, more expensive seems like a better value for the dollar. Given the choice, parents send their kids to a better-looking pre-school, or day-care, or even private school that offers more amenities.
Am I defending the content of what is provided. Of course not. However, the fancy looking McDojo also seem to deliver what many people want.
Interesting discussion.
Gordon, I think you make some good points. However, I can't see why you couldn't have many of the things on your list and still have excellent instruction within the school. You're right though, McDojo's don't make money through the quality of their instruction, but rather their appeal to parents and consumers. I think a lot of people just want to say they have a black belt even when they know deep down they didn't have to work that hard to get it. It's a shame really.
Gordon, I think you make some good points. However, I can't see why you couldn't have many of the things on your list and still have excellent instruction within the school. You're right though, McDojo's don't make money through the quality of their instruction, but rather their appeal to parents and consumers. I think a lot of people just want to say they have a black belt even when they know deep down they didn't have to work that hard to get it. It's a shame really.
Is six belts really typical? I've trained in two schools and one had I think 8 belts and the other has ten (white, yellow, gold, orange, green, blue, brown, purple, red, navy blue, black.)
This seems indicative of the owner trying to make more money but doesn't necessarily mean you aren't learning quality martial art skills. Do you folks think that the defining trait of a McDojo is easy testing or trying to gouge every single dollar out of the students possible? These two things don't necessarily have to go together even though they often do.
Gordon Nore
Senior Master
You certainly can have excellent instruction; however, I was speaking places that have everything but... extreme McDojo. I think the thing is, once you've set up a consumer-provider dynamic, in which customer-pleasing comes first, it doesn't really matter if you have these great instructors.
If in the first meeting with a parent, there's this big deal about how long it takes, what it costs, etc., to be a black belt, that will influence the parent's purchasing choice, just as it will influence the instruction.
wade
Black Belt
To be honest, I think what I run is a McDojo. Sad isn't it. Not that I run one but that I am proud of it. I started my school in Feb 1978 and have been running it since, in the same 5 mile area. I have turned out some very nice players, the latest is Ashley Jobin who first beat Meia Eubanks and then knocked out Danielle Harrison for the gold in Detroit. She has been with me since she was 7 years old. I focus mainly on sport TKD and am not embarrarsed about it. What can I do, I am too old to change and have no desire to anyway. Recently we went to the International Friendship Tournament in Portland, Or. My McDojo students won 3 Gold, 2 Silver and 3 bronze in the black belt divisions. I guress a "real" school would have done better but we work with what we have.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
ok, part of brain just died watching that.........
as to belts, for arts descended from the japanese, the 10 kyu/gup-10 dan system is standard, more than 10 belts before black? thats a BIG red flag for me.
as to belts, for arts descended from the japanese, the 10 kyu/gup-10 dan system is standard, more than 10 belts before black? thats a BIG red flag for me.
Windsinger
Green Belt
I don't want to sound like I'm bragging or anything (though if it comes across that way, my apologies), but I'm going for my yellow belt on Saturday, and even I consider what I saw there to be sloppy technique.
Gordon Nore
Senior Master
That video. Well, first thing I noticed was how young the candidate was. He's a boy in his teens. Why does he need to be a third dan. Is somebody going call that kid, "Master."
His technique tells me he hasn't been training that many years, and he's been taught to add too many tools to his arsenal without having really grasped his basics. This is what I don't like about rushed training. A kid who's actually spent three months of back-fist / reverse-punch / kick, is gonna look pretty damn good and be half-way effective. Do stuff like that for five years, and you've got a student that even the black belts won't fool with.
This kid can do things I certainly can't. I can't leap and spin -- never could. I'm a brick. But in this instance there's a bunch of telegraphed, uncertain, leaping-spinning kicks that are absolutely redundant, given the level the various fighters are at. A spin-kick is dandy (1) if you can do it, which I can't, and (2) if you can do it without the other guy seeing it coming. In this case, if the other fighter were more skilled, or at least more aggressive, these sparring contests would end with someone on the floor.
So that's where I see this as all being terribly unfortunate. At a lower level, this kid would be a good fighter. He's obviously learned how to do things -- he just hasn't done them enough. There's lots of good ingredients here. It's obvious that observers are excited. At the end of the grading, you can see the students are attentive to their teacher. And the teacher clearly shows some fondness for his students.
So why does this all have to happen -- or so it appears to me -- so quickly? That could be a room full of orange and green belts, savouring another moment in a longer journey.
A McDojo offers a value to its customers or it would not stay in business. It is no crime for them to be good at marketing. Many a GM worked out of a garage or something similar and lived in poverty. They were all about the art and we are glad for it. Many have offered a watered down MA. It is up to the students and their parents to pay attention to what they are buying. Even in my small town of 30,000 there are several offerings. Some aren't worth the time of day. Some are so rough that people go to the hospital regularly from training there. Some are people who love their art and teach out of their garage. There are even the Tae Kwon Do cardio type places. Maybe some of the complaints seen here are from people who haven't learned how to properly market the good work they do. The so called McDojo offers a value that people are willing to buy. If they are being deceived, they are probably wanting to be deceived. My family and I train in a garage where our instructor takes pride in his teaching. And yes we get a family rate. And there is pain and tears and even some blood. We get a real value. This video was sad. But those training there want that kind of training. They want to say they are black belts or whatever. That bright, shiney (bs) school could offer real training, but it gives what the people are buying. It is harder to build a bright, shiney school that really teaches SD because the overhead is high and rent has to be paid, but I have to believe it is doable. It is always harder to make something great. It takes sacrifice. Still, the McDojo gives them what they want. Ok, did I ramble?
Here is a cool looking McDojang college http://www.worldtaekwondocollege.com/academics.php
After mastering the intensive 3 year program of the WTC, our graduates are proud holders of a Referee Certificate, Instructor's Certificate, and a third degree black belt.
After mastering the intensive 3 year program of the WTC, our graduates are proud holders of a Referee Certificate, Instructor's Certificate, and a third degree black belt.
Wade you are far from a Mcdojo and if you believe you are then I must be as well. Your players are top notch for competition and if need be they know how to protect themselfs. I am hoping in Vegas we maybe able to finally match up between your girls and some od mine. Here is hoping to compete against you.
Sylo
Purple Belt
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http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=1264j...********/forums/showthread.php?t=78705&page=2
You know I didn't get to watch this yesterday. I just had an idea of what it was. I honestly did not realize just how terrible this was. Oh, and who would have guessed it was an ATA school. (not all of them are bad)
If this kid is 3rd dan. Then I'm Jhoon Rhee.
You know I didn't get to watch this yesterday. I just had an idea of what it was. I honestly did not realize just how terrible this was. Oh, and who would have guessed it was an ATA school. (not all of them are bad)
If this kid is 3rd dan. Then I'm Jhoon Rhee.
Korppi76
Green Belt
That seems more like instructor training. At least courses seemed more like how to teach and school management . Only that third degree black belt part seems funny. (except if requirement for that training is 2nd degree black belt)
BrandonLucas
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A large number of belts doesn't mean poor quality instruction...not by any means. It usually means that the instructor is charging more money than what they should.
Have you ever stopped to think about how many ranks someone would really need? Wouldn't it be more important that the student spends an appropriate amount of time training before being told that he/she is ready to use the knowledge that they now have?
And that's another key point right there...if someone is able to make the journey from white to blackbelt in a short amount of time...say around a year...then something's not right. Either the student was given rank too quickly and passed through the art, or the student was truly worthy of passing in that amount of time.
99.99999% of the time, it's the former and not the latter.
