The Arts Today: A Comparison, A Rant

[Em MacIntosh]

Non-profit has never failed me for quality of instruction. Depending on the rent, I can't see paying more than $45-$60/month for instruction. The less I pay, the more I get for what I pay, I've found.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Why should there be a kids class?

There are a lot of very good reasons for a kids class. The fact that they were not widely available or available at all when you and I started out does not mean that the idea lacks merit. The big issue is the implementation; the program succeeds or fails on how it is implemented. Note: I do not mean financial success. Plenty of financially successful kids progams are abject failures in terms of actually teaching the students.

I am of the opinion that school age kids should not be wearing black belts. I have yet to see a school that give the same, identical test to kids. Either the test itself is lighter or the grading of the test is weighted differently to account for the kid being eight. Either way, the kid does not have to meet the same standards as an adult.

I have seen middle school students that are definitely BB material. They are the exception, but there are a few. I do not consider high school students kids in terms of physical activity; they should get stuck into the adult class straight away.

As far as school age kids, a well developed kids program that focuses on teaching the basics and developing the child is fine. There just does not need to be a black belt issued just because a child can do eight forms and has been showing up for two years.

Daniel

 

[Xinglu]

As far as school age kids, a well developed kids program that focuses on teaching the basics and developing the child is fine. There just does not need to be a black belt issued just because a child can do eight forms and has been showing up for two years.

I have no problem with something like this because it does not hand out BB.

Why? How have they failed? Giving away a black belt is one thing. But scaling the challenges of a child attaining a black belt is entirely another.

The fact that they couldn't then take out an adult attacker is our failure to provide them with a realistic sense of their abilities. But how does recognizing their dedication, practice, discipline, and stick-to-it-tiveness lead to failure?

At its most basic level, any belt grading system is simply a structured setup of goal setting and reward. Provided we're honest with them about what the goals are and what the rewards mean, I fail to see how giving them recognition results in failure.

Does their skill level match that of any other BB? No. That is the problem, standards exist for a reason and exceptions should not be made because they are young and impatient (or more to the point the parents are impatient). Furthermore, where did I say they failed? I did not, let's not put words in my mouth. I did say they were being set up for failure which implies that their instructors are failing them, not that the kids are failing.

Well, we all reinforce it. This thread reinforces it. We tell them the black belt is the golden apple. And then we turn around and tell them not to want it until they're older. Makes no sense.

If ability is the actual golden apple, then kids should be given a frank and realistic talk about their abilities, appropriately scaled. And we should all stop yammering on about how awesome the black belt is.

I don't mean to sound combative. I just think we spend way too much time mystifying this stuff, fixating on symbols, and obscuring what would be a whole lot more useful if we were just clearer about it.

No offense intended, everyone.

None taken.

Golden apple? Hardly. More like upholding standards. A BB implies many things about the holder one of which is skill and ability over Jr. ranks. A BB should be able to control a brown belt when sparring so forth and so on. Period. Memorization of a form techniques and time put in does not make a person worthy of any rank, even if it is a yellow belt. If we make each belt relative to age then we are doing a disservice to those we are making the exceptions for.

Does this perpetuate that a BB is the final step? No. Not even close, but I do assert that BB are like HS diplomas, in which standards are set and to earn it you must be able to apply what you've learned. There are still a great many levels ahead, but now you are considered competent to survive in the world. A 12 y/o BB (heck I've seen 12 y/o 3rd dans) is hardly competent and able to apply their knowledge against a resisting opponent in the real world, and the real world is the adult world.

Belts of any rank should not be used as a pat on the back, they should be earned through blood, sweat, and tears. each rank implies a certain levels of skill and knowledge and the ability to apply it, if that cannot be done then that rank is IMO unearned and was given to them to placate them.

 

[KELLYG]

I wish that I had started training at 8 years old VS 38 years old. I think that young people are more pliable mentally and physically than an older set. I think that getting up off your axx and doing something anything is better than rotting your brain on TV. From a self defense stand point I would probably have a hard time with an attacker that is a foot taller than me and out ways me by 100 lbs. Does that mean that all the training that I have gone through was for nothing. I think the true measure of self defense for children is how they were to handle themselves among other people of the same size. This is probably where most of there conflict is going to come from. Basically who gives a shxx what belt any one else is wearing anyway. We are taught from the get go that black belt is where you really start learning Martial Arts. I think that kids training in MA and, what they take away from it has a lot more to do with the instructors than anything else.

 

[ap Oweyn]

Does their skill level match that of any other BB? No. That is the problem, standards exist for a reason and exceptions should not be made because they are young and impatient (or more to the point the parents are impatient). Furthermore, where did I say they failed? I did not, let's not put words in my mouth. I did say they were being set up for failure which implies that their instructors are failing them, not that the kids are failing.

Not my intention to put words in your mouth. Sorry.

There's no global standard for a black belt. I've seen dreadful black belts and dynamite black belts. So, yes, their skill level WILL match that of some other black belts. And it WON'T match that of others. All of which goes to say that a black belt is a terrible measure, globally, of skill. It's a much more useful measure of an individual's progress on a particular path of skill development.

Standards are fine. But let's make them relevant. A black belt shouldn't be sold as a bulletproof vest. Hold children to a standard that applies to them. As adults, I feel like we ought to be able to devise realistic standards for people of that developmental level.

Should it be a black belt? Meh, I don't know. Never put much stock in them personally. Getting one wasn't a transformative experience. And I feel like we ought to stop billing it as such. I woke up the next day fundamentally the same as I was when I went to bed.

Golden apple? Hardly. More like upholding standards. A BB implies many things about the holder one of which is skill and ability over Jr. ranks. A BB should be able to control a brown belt when sparring so forth and so on. Period. Memorization of a form techniques and time put in does not make a person worthy of any rank, even if it is a yellow belt. If we make each belt relative to age then we are doing a disservice to those we are making the exceptions for.

I don't accept that. A black belt ought to be able to control a comparable brown belt, yes. But doing them a disservice by scaling our expectations? I don't think so. If we set appropriate measures, we aren't doing THEM a disservice. Not as much as we do them a disservice by saying "you can't get one of these, so don't aspire to it until you're older."

Any reasoning adult should be able to look at a younger person with a belt and put that belt in context. And we should be teaching younger martial artists to do likewise. We should be teaching them to look at the linebacker with the yellow belt and say to themselves, "I have tools, but I need to be realistic here." That's the relevant insight. Not the belt.

Does this perpetuate that a BB is the final step? No. Not even close, but I do assert that BB are like HS diplomas, in which standards are set and to earn it you must be able to apply what you've learned. There are still a great many levels ahead, but now you are considered competent to survive in the world. A 12 y/o BB (heck I've seen 12 y/o 3rd dans) is hardly competent and able to apply their knowledge against a resisting opponent in the real world, and the real world is the adult world.

We set age-appropriate standards in issuing high school diplomas. We don't tell them they fail high school chemistry because they don't understand polymer processing.

Belts of any rank should not be used as a pat on the back, they should be earned through blood, sweat, and tears. each rank implies a certain levels of skill and knowledge and the ability to apply it, if that cannot be done then that rank is IMO unearned and was given to them to placate them.

Belts should be earned, certainly. But if it's impossible for a student to earn a given belt by this set of standards (i.e., defeating a lower-belted adult), then we should stop presenting that belt as a target. We should stop telling them that they can get one.

Personally, I think that reduces the usefulness of a belt system. Either it should be a useable series of structured goals or it should be done away with, so that everyone is measured precisely on what they can do.

Personally, I don't use a belt system anymore. But if you're going to use one, then I think we need to be up front with students about what's feasible. Because it would be a real misstep to accept tuition from a young student who's expecting to participate in a belt system if we then turn around and say "the standard for completing this system is out of your reach."


Stuart

 

[MJS]

At the dojo I trained at growing up, if you were under 18 - no BB. It didn't matter how good you were, there needed to be a certain level of emotional maturity to go along with it, so 18 was the min. age at which a BB could be earned. They are, to the best of my knowledge, still upholding that standard. There, a BB still means something.

That was my upbringing in MA, and I'm right there with you beating my head into the wall when children are promoted to BB. Bottom line, a BB should be able to control and dominate the fight of any lesser rank regardless of age. I've yet to meet a 12 y/o who can dominate and control even an adult yellow belt.

Very good points. IMO, I think alot of people seem to be missing what a BB really means. There is so much more than just doing well in competition, and "knowing" the material. As I've said, people can "know" something on the surface, but how well do they really know it? I find it hard, very hard to believe, that a 7yr old or 12yr old would have anywhere near the knowledge that an adult BB would. Yet people in certain arts award them without blinking an eye....and see nothing wrong with it!!!!

 

[MJS]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Most of your complaints revolve around kids' standards being "too soft." And then you say that, "in the good old days," everyone banged and they were generally tougher.

Kids, adults, I'd say both fit into that category, but I dont see how you're compaing it apples to oranges. I've seen my share of adults who I'd look at and think to myself, "My God, you're a Brown belt and you punch at me like that???"

Kids weren't. Not really. I've been involved in this stuff for 26 years myself. And we weren't tougher. Kids got bored, frustrated, upset, and so on. That's got exactly sod all to do with martial arts and everything to do with being a kid.

Oh, I wouldn't go so far as to put all kids in the same basket. Of course, if a kid isn't mature enough to understand there's more to training than that magical BB, then perhaps they're too young to be training in the first place.

So when you say that people banged, I'm guessing you're referring to the adults, or at least young adults. In which case, I'd say there's no way they're softer now. Say what you will about the advent of MMA. But it seems clear to me that the "light brush" style of sparring you mentioned is more a relic of the 1990s than an indication of today. Today, more people want to gear up and pummel one another. I don't know the last time I heard any noise about a fighter on the point circuit. But MMA guys, you hear about all the time, even at the amateur level. And those guys are working very hard at conditioning and contact sparring. Doesn't seem "soft" to me.

LOL, are you comparing MMA to the typical Karate type class? Dude, thats night and day. And those that banged hard back then, at least the people I know, still hold true to that today. But as I said there are adults today that would fall into the hobbyist category, that are soft.

As for children being taken seriously while wearing black belts, I don't see why they (or their parents) should be particularly embarrassed. Frankly, I think it's the people who take that so seriously who ought to be embarrassed. For their absolute inability (or unwillingness) to put things in perspective. I have a black belt. And the day that I feel my achievement is cheapened because some 10-year-old also has one is the day I need to take a long, hard look in the mirror and ask myself what I've been up to for the past 26 years. The black belt is a metaphor for a process. The kids' process is different from mine. And that's fine. The accomplishments in that process are different. Doesn't make them easier or more trivial. And it certainly doesn't make those kids less deserving of acknowledgment for their efforts.

So are you saying the value of the BB should be different for the adults and kids? If so, why? Do you feel a 7yr old should be wearing a 2nd degree BB?

Hell, as adults, it seems to me we ought to be less fretful about the black belt. Yet, most of the time, I hear adults wanting to take away or reduce the value of the black belt a kid wears. Not to give the kid a more realistic sense of his abilities, but so as not to demean the value of the belt the adult is wearing. Those priorities seem very confused to me.

We should give children a realistic appraisal of what it means to have their black belts. It's our fault for building it up into some sort of superpower in the first place. We spend years touting this thing as the be all, end all. Then we get all bent out of shape because they want one. It's absurd.

A black belt is a marker. And it's certainly not the last one they'll need. Kids OR adults. But that's the one we all talk about like the second coming, so that's the one everyone fixates on.

I think it's time to get over it. Use it as a reference point. But don't dangle it in front of kids like a tasty treat and then yank it away, proclaiming "you're not old and mature enough to get this."

A kid wearing a black belt is a kid. Bottom line. If that kid thinks he can "take" an adult, he needs an education. But they didn't write the hype. We did.


Stuart

So going by your comment that I underlined, you feel that a young kid should be able to wear a high rank BB? I'd rather see the method that I suggested earlier. You did read that right? Or did you just jump into the thread, and make an assumption off of a few of my posts, without reading all of them?

 

[MJS]

i don't think it cheapens anyone's achievement other than the kids. I see it as a way of setting the child up for failure. That is what frustrates me, is seeing the children think it means something it doesn't. That leads to a whole host of related problems.

bingo!!!!

 

[MJS]

i guess i just don't get it, with all this ranting and raving???

how is it exactly that what a kid does or wears in a children's class have anything to do with how one trains as an adult?

pete

Umm...well lets see Pete...if we simply change the people who we're talking about, ie: replace the kids with adults, we'd most likely see the same thing.

 

[ap Oweyn]

You did read that right? Or did you just jump into the thread, and make an assumption off of a few of my posts, without reading all of them?

I said I meant no offense. So this comeback seems uncalled for. I'd be happy to address your points, but not like this.

 

[Tez3]

I teach children and am pleased to, I've posted up here enough times why I teach the children I do. They don't get blackbelts not even junior ones until after they are at least 16 and have also trained with the adults from being 14. They do age appropriate self defence, they don't think they can take an adult on (at least not singly, in a group I think they could lol) they do spar harder than most kids. As a group they tend to be more confident than a lot of kids, most have lived in a couple of countries, been to several schools and have moved homes about every three years.

Our chief instructor is an old fashioned in that SD has to work or he won't teach the technique, 'work' to him means he's used them either on the doors or elsewhere. Our kata work involves knowing Bunkai as espoused by Iain Abernethy as well as being able to 'perform' it. Most of the adults training with us don't grade or follow any syllabus, we have two 16 year olds who have gone straight into MMA, they aren't grading so aren't looking for BBs. The children we teach know they won't get one and we all see SD and fighting as more important than belts. The children do grade, maybe twice a year at most, they work very very hard and their belts mean they are good at being that grade and age nothing else.

If our kids go on to get black belts it's unlikely to be with us as for them to stay over three years with us is unusual. If they come to us as white after three years they'll have gone up two or maybe three belts but they will have perhaps a deeper knowledge of martials art than many who've been doing it the same time and have higher grades.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I suppose this will be one of those 'hot' topics, one that will be a NHB sort of thread, however, while it no doubt will get hot, feelings will get hurt, keep in mind....a) I intend to keep all of my posts well within the rules, although I can't speak for others, I'm hoping they do the same, b) some tender hearts will get hurt, no doubt. Part of being in the arts, and on a forum, is to have a thick skin. If the words of some on the net offend you, God help you in the real world. That being said....here goes......

I've been in the arts for a bit over 20yrs now. I didn't know much when I started, but I've had the chance to see quite a bit, fastforwarding to present time. I've read books, articles, spoke with various people...all of which has shown the same thing, that the arts have really changed from past to what we see today. Back in the day it was nothing to get banged up, whereas today, the slightest bit of contact, and people cry foul, because their glass child got hurt or hit too hard. Better clear the sidewalks for the campout of lawyers. Back in the day, the focus was on learning, which took time, lots of time, whereas today, if Johnny isn't keeping up with Joey, God forbid, and he doesnt get promoted at the same time, God forbid we have Johnny wait until he's old enough for black belt, instead of giving it to him when he's 7.

Is that what the arts have come to today? A bunch of take my dough dojos, who promote kids who aren't old enough to drive yet? Seems like the mentality is, as long as the kid shows up to class, can compete well, and knows his stuff, who gives a rats *** if he's 7 and a 1st degree, or 12 and a 3rd degree. If thats what it comes down to today, thats sad and very pathetic!

People run around saying, "Well, Master so and so thinks Joey looks good so he is deserving of that 4th degree....even though he's only 12." Well, people must be living with blinders on, because if thats what they think, they're kidding themselves. I mean really, if you were paying GM or Master X, X number of dollars, of course they're going to promote the kid. They're getting paid, do you really think they give a **** about Joey?

Thank God there are still schools around today, to counter the McDojos that are so rampant today. Schools that put quality over quantity and dont cater to the Jones', who think it's all about them, and who feel that their 8yo should be a 2nd degree.

Its sad, and its a joke. And frankly, I'd be ashamed to admit that my kid is that young and has that rank.

Enough ranting from me for now.. ....I'm sure there're others who will agree and those that disagree. I just wonder, how people can sleep at night, knowing that their kid is a laughing stock amongst other martial artists...those who bust their *** on the mat, those who have put in the blood, sweat and tears into training, those who dont run and cry when they get hit.

I feel ya' brother!

I got a call this past Saturday from a fella' who had trained with me in the past when I assisted instructing at a commercial dojo. He wanted to train with me because I was closer, but I still referred him to the commercial dojo because I knew he wasn't dedicated.

In the past he'd come for a month, drop out for several months, then come back again. It was obvious he didn't practice outside the dojo.

Now that I teach privately, I don't take on anyone that isn't 100% dedicated. Maintain the flame...that's my motto. LOL

Funny thing is, even when I was an assitant instructor...we lost potential students because after seeing a demo they thought we were ..."TOO ROUGH!" LOL

Can you believe that? They'd claim to want to learn self-defense but when we'd show them somthing as simple as 5 Swords they'd freak?!?!

Hell, my philosophy was always "If that hurts me, then I know it will hurt someone else; therefore, I wanted to learn it!"

I've learned that most people only want to be able to say they are black belts. They don't actually want to put in the blood, sweat, and tears necessary to achieve the actual skill that was once associated with that rank.

They'd rather pay their dues, show up a few times week, and get their certificate and belt saying they are a black belt in about a year.

It took me 3 years to get my black in Kenpo...and that was going to class 5 times a week, practicing every day, and basically busting my *** to get it. I attained a black belt in a shorter time than anyone ever had in the organization I was associated with at the time...and that was 3 years. But it was because I busted my tail and practiced all the time. I ate, slept, and breathed Kenpo during that time...

Westerner's are lazy. They want to have braggin' rights but don't want to put in the effort to legitamately claim them.

Greed and the almightly dollar has cheapened the arts. If I tried to make a living off of students that were willing to put in the effort it actually takes to attain the level of expertise I expect, I would go bankrupt.

What kills me is that these folks that want the one-year black belt could save themselves a lot of trouble and money by simply picking up a Century catalouge and orderning a black belt. They could claim the rank even more quickly and be just as skilled.

There was a time when simply being a "black belt" garnered respect... that was before the McDojo and the Power Rangers. LOL

 

[Omar B]

Funny thing is, even when I was an assitant instructor...we lost potential students because after seeing a demo they thought we were ..."TOO ROUGH!" LOL

Can you believe that? They'd claim to want to learn self-defense but when we'd show them somthing as simple as 5 Swords they'd freak?!?!

Hey man, 5 Swords is friggin crazy, and scary as all hell. Last thing I need is to be on the receiving end of that 10 or 20 times a day in class. LOL

But really, I think you've hit upon an interesting point at the end in mentioning Power Ranger. In the movies the story's so common with the kid who trains and within a week is a black belt ::cough:: Karate Kid ::cough:: . But really, people walk into a dojo with expectations colored by Hollywood of what actually happens, how long it takes, and a lot of weird stuff about meditation.

 

[suicide]

five swords one of my all time fav. :knight2:

 

[Xinglu]

Stuart - As an 8 y/o yellow belt, I was able to control sparing matches with adult white belts, as purple I could control adult yellows (not dominate per se) . So I know it is possible and realistic. By control I don't mean beat. I mean they did not control the fight, I did. My tactics and strategy was strong enough to keep them on the defensive even if I didn't have the power to do real harm. Being able to do that to an adult you can imagine what was possible with people my own age or size.

From my first class on I was told that if I was under 18 I would not be able to wear a BB. So I didn't worry about it. None of my classmates my age did either. There was an up front standard and each level was hard sure, but earned. Being a yellow belt or purple belt meant something. It wasn't cheap and respect for each rank was shown. If you were a yellow belt and a green belt told you to do something, you did it. It also taught us as youth to have emotional maturity - something that is lacking severely by youth today.

So I disagree about you comparing it to waving it in front of them to tell them they can't have it. We trained for the art, not the rank. As far as I'm concerned someone training for the rank should be held back until they can fix their ego issues. Heck it took me 10 years just to make green belt, but as Tez said above, I had a deeper understanding of the art and what each rank entails then most adult who could and did progress faster. It is because of this that even today, my focus is on effective application of what I learn instead of getting the next belt. After all what good is a yellow belt if you can't apply what you learned as a white belt?

I want to share a point that has already been made, just because I feel it needs reiteration.

Oh, I wouldn't go so far as to put all kids in the same basket. Of course, if a kid isn't mature enough to understand there's more to training than that magical BB, then perhaps they're too young to be training in the first place.

For the most part kids don't care about the BB, the parents do and then as a byproduct the kids feel they should so they end up mimicking their parents. But if you are upfront with them from the get go they show up to learn. Period. And that is what it is all about, learning. Not achieving a BB. And when the focus of the Dojo is learning and becoming better, rank is no longer a goal and is better respected because it is earned.

I have seen BB that are terrible. Equivalent to a purple belt in other schools as far as knowledge but maybe more like a yellow in application. I think that is not a good representation of an art, and personally I feel it is a disservice to that art. It is apparent at that point that the rank was given, not earned. I don't care what the art is, TKD, Kenpo, Kaju, Karate, whatever... A BB in any of those should not be able to be taken out or controlled by a Jr. ranking regardless of the system. If a purple belt from one system cross trains and tears apart and controls the BB from another school, there is a problem. Unfortunately, I have seen it happen quite a few times.

For example, I'm not ultimate fighter, I consider my self average on my good days. But I cross trained (I will leave the style and school unnamed out of respect) when I was a green belt and was controlling matches and defeating BB as high as 4rd dan regularly. To me, this is unacceptable, if a green belt can take on control and beat your BBs then what are you doing?! Does that mean my Green belt in the other system was worth more than their 4th dan?! Not only did it cause some problems in the school with the BB, but it caused a problem with my motivation. I did not feel challenged. You learn by fighting people better than you, and my instructor seemed to want me around so they could learn from me not me learn from them. Of course I left after a while, and found a place where I got thrown around a lot, beaten in sparring a lot, and learned a lot there! Because like my first dojo, it was about learning how to apply what you knew, not just doing forms and techniques.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The whole "Black belt" standard comes down to what an individual school deems a black belt to mean. This varies from school to school obviously and therefore could be debated till the end of time. Some people dont start martial arts untill they are in their 50's and may have no flexibility and may be naturally uncoordinated and slow. By some defintions of "black belt" a person like this would find a black belt literally unatainable. People do martial arts for different reasons these days also. My wife has started martial arts because it is giving her a better and more interesting excercise than aerobics was , she doesnt have an aggressive bone in her body , doesnt want to "learn how to fight" or how to defend herself , she has no interest in any of that and yet she absolutely loves martial arts. All in all ,a lot of people are doing martial arts for different reasons these days.

 

[MJS]

I said I meant no offense. So this comeback seems uncalled for. I'd be happy to address your points, but not like this.

My apologies. Feel free to address my points, if you wish.

 

[MJS]

Stuart - As an 8 y/o yellow belt, I was able to control sparing matches with adult white belts, as purple I could control adult yellows (not dominate per se) . So I know it is possible and realistic. By control I don't mean beat. I mean they did not control the fight, I did. My tactics and strategy was strong enough to keep them on the defensive even if I didn't have the power to do real harm. Being able to do that to an adult you can imagine what was possible with people my own age or size.

From my first class on I was told that if I was under 18 I would not be able to wear a BB. So I didn't worry about it. None of my classmates my age did either. There was an up front standard and each level was hard sure, but earned. Being a yellow belt or purple belt meant something. It wasn't cheap and respect for each rank was shown. If you were a yellow belt and a green belt told you to do something, you did it. It also taught us as youth to have emotional maturity - something that is lacking severely by youth today.

So I disagree about you comparing it to waving it in front of them to tell them they can't have it. We trained for the art, not the rank. As far as I'm concerned someone training for the rank should be held back until they can fix their ego issues. Heck it took me 10 years just to make green belt, but as Tez said above, I had a deeper understanding of the art and what each rank entails then most adult who could and did progress faster. It is because of this that even today, my focus is on effective application of what I learn instead of getting the next belt. After all what good is a yellow belt if you can't apply what you learned as a white belt?

I want to share a point that has already been made, just because I feel it needs reiteration.

That was my thinking as well. Its not that we're dangling it in front of them, but simply making them wait. God forbid a child waits for something. Hmm..isn't that part of the arts...to have the ability to humble yourself and actually work for something instead of having it handed to you? IMO, giving the belt to a kid not deserving, is taking away from the value of it. Then again, some people seem to think that the belt has some magical powers...it doesnt. Its not the belt thats gonna save your ***, its your ability to execute the material when your under the gun.

For the most part kids don't care about the BB, the parents do and then as a byproduct the kids feel they should so they end up mimicking their parents. But if you are upfront with them from the get go they show up to learn. Period. And that is what it is all about, learning. Not achieving a BB. And when the focus of the Dojo is learning and becoming better, rank is no longer a goal and is better respected because it is earned.

Again, I say this is because of the distorted view that a good portion of the public has on what a BB means. Sadly the mcdojos only see the $$$$ and hand them out like candy.

I have seen BB that are terrible. Equivalent to a purple belt in other schools as far as knowledge but maybe more like a yellow in application. I think that is not a good representation of an art, and personally I feel it is a disservice to that art. It is apparent at that point that the rank was given, not earned. I don't care what the art is, TKD, Kenpo, Kaju, Karate, whatever... A BB in any of those should not be able to be taken out or controlled by a Jr. ranking regardless of the system. If a purple belt from one system cross trains and tears apart and controls the BB from another school, there is a problem. Unfortunately, I have seen it happen quite a few times.

Ditto.

 

[ap Oweyn]

Stuart - As an 8 y/o yellow belt, I was able to control sparing matches with adult white belts, as purple I could control adult yellows (not dominate per se) . So I know it is possible and realistic. By control I don't mean beat. I mean they did not control the fight, I did. My tactics and strategy was strong enough to keep them on the defensive even if I didn't have the power to do real harm. Being able to do that to an adult you can imagine what was possible with people my own age or size.

Well now, wait a minute, Xinglu. I said that expectations should be scaled. Not lowered. I've clearly stated that various times. And what you're describing here is a scaled expectation. You were expected to have a technical command. You were NOT expected to "beat" to a grown adult by "taking him out." And you certainly weren't expected to beat a grown adult in a real, no-holds-barred situation.

That's scaled. Literally, scale pertains to size, yes? You were expected to show a good command of technique, but there was an acknowledgment that, given your relative sizes, you weren't going to dole out the damage required to eliminate the threat (had the threat been real).

From my first class on I was told that if I was under 18 I would not be able to wear a BB. So I didn't worry about it. None of my classmates my age did either. There was an up front standard and each level was hard sure, but earned. Being a yellow belt or purple belt meant something. It wasn't cheap and respect for each rank was shown. If you were a yellow belt and a green belt told you to do something, you did it. It also taught us as youth to have emotional maturity - something that is lacking severely by youth today.

Again, this is something I said in my earlier post. That we should talk with students about what really matters. If your school was up front about what the real objective is, and made it clear that the black belt wasn't the epitome of martial artist-ness, then they did what I described.

I said that we can't hold up the black belt as being the most important thing and then offer no avenue for earning it. You're countering with a school that DIDN'T present the black belt as the most important thing. And I stated clearly that, if the black belt is unattainable, then we should stop dangling it in front of kids' (and parents') noses as "the goal." Your school apparently did just the opposite.

So I disagree about you comparing it to waving it in front of them to tell them they can't have it. We trained for the art, not the rank.

Then you don't actually disagree with me, as I said I don't use a belt system anyway. But that, if you're going to use one, setting objectives that a child can't achieve, without telling the child as much up front, is a mistake. Conversely, I said that if you DO award the child such a belt as an acknowledgment of progress, it should come with clear explanations of what that realistically means.

As far as I'm concerned someone training for the rank should be held back until they can fix their ego issues.

And you don't know any adult black belts with anything that might be described as "ego issues"?

Heck it took me 10 years just to make green belt, but as Tez said above, I had a deeper understanding of the art and what each rank entails then most adult who could and did progress faster. It is because of this that even today, my focus is on effective application of what I learn instead of getting the next belt. After all what good is a yellow belt if you can't apply what you learned as a white belt?

None. But you're presenting this all as an argument to my point that kids' standards should be lowered. Which isn't what I said.

For the most part kids don't care about the BB, the parents do and then as a byproduct the kids feel they should so they end up mimicking their parents. But if you are upfront with them from the get go they show up to learn. Period. And that is what it is all about, learning. Not achieving a BB. And when the focus of the Dojo is learning and becoming better, rank is no longer a goal and is better respected because it is earned.

I couldn't agree more. Again, I don't use a belt system. And people show up anyway. I'm saying that, IF you use a belt system, it needs to be transparent. And, given the hype that a black belt has been given over the years (through the media, schools, etc.), we have some expectations to undo first.

I have seen BB that are terrible. Equivalent to a purple belt in other schools as far as knowledge but maybe more like a yellow in application. I think that is not a good representation of an art, and personally I feel it is a disservice to that art. It is apparent at that point that the rank was given, not earned. I don't care what the art is, TKD, Kenpo, Kaju, Karate, whatever... A BB in any of those should not be able to be taken out or controlled by a Jr. ranking regardless of the system. If a purple belt from one system cross trains and tears apart and controls the BB from another school, there is a problem. Unfortunately, I have seen it happen quite a few times.

As far as I'm concerned, that's a poor reflection on a teacher and a school. Not on a style. I understand, when I see a bad presentation of a style, that I could turn around and find a really excellent presentation of that same style elsewhere. So it's the teacher and school that are at fault.

For example, I'm not ultimate fighter, I consider my self average on my good days. But I cross trained (I will leave the style and school unnamed out of respect) when I was a green belt and was controlling matches and defeating BB as high as 4rd dan regularly. To me, this is unacceptable, if a green belt can take on control and beat your BBs then what are you doing?! Does that mean my Green belt in the other system was worth more than their 4th dan?! Not only did it cause some problems in the school with the BB, but it caused a problem with my motivation. I did not feel challenged. You learn by fighting people better than you, and my instructor seemed to want me around so they could learn from me not me learn from them. Of course I left after a while, and found a place where I got thrown around a lot, beaten in sparring a lot, and learned a lot there! Because like my first dojo, it was about learning how to apply what you knew, not just doing forms and techniques.

Sure. But my feeling is this: It's utterly unrealistic to think that standardized belting is within our locus of control. It seems a much more useful measure, to me, to simply change how I perceive the belt someone wears. If I see someone with a higher belt than me, I'm not thinking "that guy can take me." Just as I'm not looking at a yellow belt and thinking "no problem." The belt is a metaphor. And those are always imperfect.

I think it's much more useful to look at the individual and how they move, present themselves, etc. I haven't trained within a belt system for more than 20 years. And it hasn't posed any problems. A belt system is a tool. And tools ought to come with clear instructions. People (especially kids and their parents) should be given a clear sense of what it's for, what's expected of them, and how they can (and cannot) move through the system.

Again, no disrespect intended. I think we're closer to agreeing than it seems. And even if I'm wrong, and we agree to disagree, there's no hostility in it. I hope that's clear.


Stuart

 

[MJS]

I feel ya' brother!

I got a call this past Saturday from a fella' who had trained with me in the past when I assisted instructing at a commercial dojo. He wanted to train with me because I was closer, but I still referred him to the commercial dojo because I knew he wasn't dedicated.

In the past he'd come for a month, drop out for several months, then come back again. It was obvious he didn't practice outside the dojo.

Now that I teach privately, I don't take on anyone that isn't 100% dedicated. Maintain the flame...that's my motto. LOL

Funny thing is, even when I was an assitant instructor...we lost potential students because after seeing a demo they thought we were ..."TOO ROUGH!" LOL

Can you believe that? They'd claim to want to learn self-defense but when we'd show them somthing as simple as 5 Swords they'd freak?!?!

Hell, my philosophy was always "If that hurts me, then I know it will hurt someone else; therefore, I wanted to learn it!"

I've learned that most people only want to be able to say they are black belts. They don't actually want to put in the blood, sweat, and tears necessary to achieve the actual skill that was once associated with that rank.

They'd rather pay their dues, show up a few times week, and get their certificate and belt saying they are a black belt in about a year.

It took me 3 years to get my black in Kenpo...and that was going to class 5 times a week, practicing every day, and basically busting my *** to get it. I attained a black belt in a shorter time than anyone ever had in the organization I was associated with at the time...and that was 3 years. But it was because I busted my tail and practiced all the time. I ate, slept, and breathed Kenpo during that time...

Westerner's are lazy. They want to have braggin' rights but don't want to put in the effort to legitamately claim them.

Greed and the almightly dollar has cheapened the arts. If I tried to make a living off of students that were willing to put in the effort it actually takes to attain the level of expertise I expect, I would go bankrupt.

What kills me is that these folks that want the one-year black belt could save themselves a lot of trouble and money by simply picking up a Century catalouge and orderning a black belt. They could claim the rank even more quickly and be just as skilled.

There was a time when simply being a "black belt" garnered respect... that was before the McDojo and the Power Rangers. LOL

Amen brother! And like I said, its those same people who think that the BB holds some mystical powers. In reality, those people are only hurting themselves, in the event they need to use their 'skills' to defend themselves, only to find out the guy trying to take their head off, isn't gonna pull his punch. Like I said earlier...

Cost for martial arts lessons: $90/month
Cost for the Mcdojo Masters Club program: $1200
Look on the face of the person when they get their *** kicked because they thought they were a BB? Priceless.