Karate kid- sweep the leg mentality

[JowGaWolf]

It mean you can be open for the sweep the entire time, and there is nothing your opponent can do about it. This also might lead people to believe they aren't open for the sweep...

Yep that's pretty accurate of how you want the sweep to be. If you sweep someone, it should be a big surprise. Here are some good examples

Now imagine taking some of those falls on a hard surface like concrete or a hard floor.

 

[drop bear]

I thought the sweep was supposed to be illegal. Effectively taking both kids out of the competition.

So that blondie kid could win.

Regardless that crane kick was illegal. And daniel won with it.

Re watched it. Aparently you can hack the leg to pieces. In which case it is the organisers at fault.

 

[Tez3]

Yes hyperactive is being kind. lol. She's not as bad as she was before, but a year ago, when this happened she was really out of control, she had as much focus looking through a stain glass window and would bounce all over the place. It's very tough training someone like that. This year she's better so I'm not sure if she is on medication, grew out of it, or is at an age where she can control it better. Hyperactive kids tend to kick without focus which makes drilling interesting because I never knew where that strike would land.

You just have to remind Americans about the past history of torture, chopping heads off. etc. lol.

I think there's other issues there rather than just being 'hyperactive'? I would check whether she's on meds though it's important we know the medical history etc when teaching children.

All countries and people have histories which hopefully we don't repeat though some do again and again.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I hold my partner-opponent in the fall to the ground (had no option, training on hard floor all the time). So I control him all the time, I can continue on the ground in good position, and control the amount of damage required in a self-defence application. Also never force it. It works effortless, or I will just retreat.

Not that I am the best example, just that there are other ways beyond illegalize everything. At least in training, there are many ways to train virtually everything safely. Or at the end, only 'QI' will be allowed...

I agree, in styles where this is possible.

In some styles, the "leg sweep" doesn't have any upper-body contact with which to control your partner's fall.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Lets make fighting too close, against the rules; so, people don't feel uncomfortable.

I missed something. How does that relate to the thread?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wouldn't eliminating, even the safe sweep, cause people to start fighting like complete idiots?

How does eliminating a technique make people fight like idiots?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It mean you can be open for the sweep the entire time, and there is nothing your opponent can do about it. This also might lead people to believe they aren't open for the sweep...

Ah! That makes sense. Yes, that happens every time you limit something in competition - look how open to strikes Judo competitors are. The alternative (if we follow the strain of this thread) would be to protect them on the way down, which exposes the "sweeper". In effect, that eliminates the sweep without making it illegal, with much the same result.

Mind you, there are sweeps that aren't so dangerous as to require protecting the opponent when on mats (assuming they have good breakfalls). Those wouldn't be part of this question.

 

[Touch Of Death]

How does eliminating a technique make people fight like idiots?

Because it gives them a false sense of security. Even now, where face contact is not allowed in tournaments, has people's kids leading with their face. The whole martial art thing is starting to become a wash. And, now, this?

 

[marques]

I agree, in styles where this is possible.
In some styles, the "leg sweep" doesn't have any upper-body contact with which to control your partner's fall.

Well, I don't follow any particular style. My background is self-defence. The focus is on the solution, by any reasonable mean. It would not be smart to put arbitrary limitations when the objective is self-defence.
(I know it would be impossible to learn it all, so it may make sense learn by parts, perhaps stick with (or specialize in) one more parts, but one should be aware of the whole... beyond the chosen style(s)).

Now I just like to train (not so much focus on self-defence), but still like it as free as possible.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The reality of the sweep is that it has great potential to mess you up big time. Jake Mace on youtube shattered his arm after his sparring partner swept him. The danger with some of the sweeps is that there's no way to really predict how the person will fall. These types of sweeps are often illegal in non- MMA type competitions.

Here's a wild idea - why not teach people how to fall correctly? It's still possible for the swept person to land badly and hurt themselves, but the odds go way down. I've been training for 35 years. Been swept and thrown a lot during that time. Only hurt myself by landing wrong once.

I don't know what the most typical rulesets for Karate competitions are these days, but I know that in the past there have been lots of tournaments which allow sweeps. I haven't heard anything about sweeps being common causes for injury. Perhaps some of the experienced Karate practitioners here can chime in.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because it gives them a false sense of security. Even now, where face contact is not allowed in tournaments, has people's kids leading with their face. The whole martial art thing is starting to become a wash. And, now, this?

It's about balancing safety. If I were organizing a competition, I'd be looking to dramatically restrict the probability of concussions. Yes, that would lead to some difficulties in the reactions of those who train ONLY for the competition, but concussion is a serious injury which research has shown can have long-term cognitive effects. I don't want one, don't want to give one, and wouldn't want folks in a competition I organized to have them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, I don't follow any particular style. My background is self-defence. The focus is on the solution, by any reasonable mean. It would not be smart to put arbitrary limitations when the objective is self-defence.
(I know it would be impossible to learn it all, so it may make sense learn by parts, perhaps stick with (or specialize in) one more parts, but one should be aware of the whole... beyond the chosen style(s)).

Now I just like to train (not so much focus on self-defence), but still like it as free as possible.

I was speaking to the idea of being able to protect the person being swept. If there's no upper-body contact, then there's no way to protect them if you sweep fully.

For self-defense purposes, that lack of being able to protect them (assuming there's not a way for them to protect themselves reliably with a good breakfall) makes training that technique impractical. If you can't train it, you may as well take it out of your arsenal. Of course, if you can train it in any way that is reliably safe, then you can put it back in the arsenal.

 

[marques]

I was speaking to the idea of being able to protect the person being swept. If there's no upper-body contact, then there's no way to protect them if you sweep fully.

There are no miracles but, usually, I succeed at least grabbing* his arm on the way to the ground. At least, it is not his head hitting first the floor. (If I can, virtually everyone can, too...)
Anyway, this is far from being my strong point. I've only applied (and tried) it against very tall people. As I cannot touch their heads when they stand-up, I need to put them at my level...

*well, with boxing gloves may not be so easy. Better with MMA gloves or no gloves, obviously. With boxing gloves... better to be close enough to use both hands to control the falling tower... Easier and safer in many ways, close sweeps...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are no miracles but, usually, I succeed at least grabbing his arm on the way to the ground. At least, it is not his head hitting first the floor. (If I can, virtually everyone can, too...)
Anyway, this is far from being my strong point. I've only applied (and tried) it against very tall people. As I cannot touch their heads when they stand-up, I need to put them at my level...

As Tony pointed out, the better protection is probably for them to learn how to fall. I actually wouldn't want someone trying to grab my arm out of a sweep - it would probably mess up my fall.

Of course, I also train on mats, and that's a huge help. I think more Karate schools have been moving toward some minimal cushioning for just that reason.

 

[marques]

As Tony pointed out, the better protection is probably for them to learn how to fall. I actually wouldn't want someone trying to grab my arm out of a sweep - it would probably mess up my fall.

Of course, I also train on mats, and that's a huge help. I think more Karate schools have been moving toward some minimal cushioning for just that reason.

Well, it is instinctive.. or intuitive... When they are falling and still trying to fight, the ground will hurt them. When you know they felt out of balance and are preparing to meet the ground.. you let them go. (I wouldn't mess up with your fall. I expect you know out to fall. It would be disrespectful helping an Aikidoka falling... )

As everything may fail, soft maths and learning to fall are obvious advantages. But I would recommend training on a hard ground, from time to time. Just for further refinement of the falling technique.

 

[Touch Of Death]

It's about balancing safety. If I were organizing a competition, I'd be looking to dramatically restrict the probability of concussions. Yes, that would lead to some difficulties in the reactions of those who train ONLY for the competition, but concussion is a serious injury which research has shown can have long-term cognitive effects. I don't want one, don't want to give one, and wouldn't want folks in a competition I organized to have them.

Hence, the controlled sweep.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here's a wild idea - why not teach people how to fall correctly? It's still possible for the swept person to land badly and hurt themselves, but the odds go way down. I've been training for 35 years. Been swept and thrown a lot during that time. Only hurt myself by landing wrong once.

I don't know what the most typical rulesets for Karate competitions are these days, but I know that in the past there have been lots of tournaments which allow sweeps. I haven't heard anything about sweeps being common causes for injury. Perhaps some of the experienced Karate practitioners here can chime in.

I'll have to sweep someone who knows how to fall to see what he says about his trip to the ground. lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'll have to sweep someone who knows how to fall to see what he says about his trip to the ground. lol

Most likely, "Oof! Do that again!" I think taking a lot of falls damages something in our reasoning...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Most likely, "Oof! Do that again!" I think taking a lot of falls damages something in our reasoning...

Yep. My usual reaction is "Nice! Show me how you set that up!"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yep. My usual reaction is "Nice! Show me how you set that up!"

Especially if I take a hard fall - that means I didn't feel what was about to happen. And then I gotta know.