The Art or The Person

[kidswarrior]

Let's look at this another way, my friends. Please be honest: make a list of the top 3 styles you would most dread facing in a life and death situation. No need to explain why a certain style is on your list, no need to belittle any other style... I'm wondering what we'll all put down, and what we'll all leave off because it's not "scary".

Here's mine:

1. BJJ
2. JKD Concepts
3. Muy Thai Boxing

(You see where this is going...?)

OK, I'll bite.

1. Kung Fu San Soo
2. CQC ala Carl Cestari
3. Hapkido

Now are you going to tell me what it means? How much therapy do I need?

 

[exile]

Let's look at this another way, my friends. Please be honest: make a list of the top 3 styles you would most dread facing in a life and death situation. No need to explain why a certain style is on your list, no need to belittle any other style... I'm wondering what we'll all put down, and what we'll all leave off because it's not "scary".

Here's mine:

1. BJJ
2. JKD Concepts
3. Muy Thai Boxing

(You see where this is going...?)

Top style MA I'd rather not face?

South Korean Army Taekwondo as practiced by the ROK Marines at the battle of Tra Binh Dong during the Vietnam war, who, outnumbered and low on ammo, wound up killing just under 250 North Vietnamese regular infantry in H2H battle in the course of a 24 hour battle starting on Valentine's Day 1967. Many of the NVietnamese corpses had broken necks or shattered windpipes and multiple fractures as a result of hand and leg strikes by the Marine defenders. After the battle, every member of the 11th Marine Battalion was promoted a full rank by the order of President Park. A description of the battle from the U.S. Marine Marine Corps Gazette is reprinted in Stuart Anslow's Chang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul: Real applications to the ITF patterns.

As Simon O'Neil discusses in detail in his Combat-TKD newsletter, the TKD taught to the ROK Marines, commandos and behind-the-lines elite special forces units like the Black Tigers (Korean War) and White Tigers (Vietnam War) was not designed for takedowns, incapacitation or submissions; it was designed to enable a soldier without a weapon to disarm and kill an enemy soldier, possibly armed with a bayonet, in the shortest possible time, using neck breaks, throat strikes and inflicting traumatic head injuries. The effectiveness of this form of TKD can be measured by the fact that in 1966 a directive from the Viet Cong field command orders VC units to avoid engaging with Korean infantry units specifically because of the effectiveness of their TKD-based close quarters fighting skills (again, for details and docmentation, you can consult Anslow's book).

I personally would be very interested in seeing BJJ practitioners of any level of skill engage those ROK Marines in their prime, or the Black Tiger Spec Ops teams from the Korean war, in H2H: no rules, and to the death. I know who my money would be on.

 

[Robert Lee]

Style or art Does not win the fight. The person best able to use what they do that time that day does. BJJ came along at a forgotten time. Why forgoten. stand up kick bozing had gained the lime light and ground training was not being as looked into. Now you just a short time spent with clench and ground BJJ is not the main threat to beat now days. Better game is rounded training. 2 people same training 1 will out do the other, why 1 is better able to perform with what they know. Plus we have to remember you have to have a certion amount of heart to keep the fight up you have, loose that desire you have lost the battle. Skill times heart.

 

[flashlock]

Style or art Does not win the fight. The person best able to use what they do that time that day does. BJJ came along at a forgotten time. Why forgoten. stand up kick bozing had gained the lime light and ground training was not being as looked into. Now you just a short time spent with clench and ground BJJ is not the main threat to beat now days. Better game is rounded training. 2 people same training 1 will out do the other, why 1 is better able to perform with what they know. Plus we have to remember you have to have a certion amount of heart to keep the fight up you have, loose that desire you have lost the battle. Skill times heart.

Nicely put, thank you.

 

[bydand]

Let's look at this another way, my friends. Please be honest: make a list of the top 3 styles you would most dread facing in a life and death situation. No need to explain why a certain style is on your list, no need to belittle any other style... I'm wondering what we'll all put down, and what we'll all leave off because it's not "scary".

Here's mine:

1. BJJ
2. JKD Concepts
3. Muy Thai Boxing

(You see where this is going...?)

Fair enough question I suppose.
My list would be:

1) East Detroit Gang style with a blade.
2) Bronx Pub brawling
3) African Poacher style.

No I am not making fun of your list at all.

I think as Martial Artists we get trapped into thinking that unless somebody has spent time in a formal training hall or Dojo they are "untrained as a fighter". Nothing could be further from the truth, they are all trained in their environment. All of the above can be, and should be, considered a real fighting style, and I wouldn't want to cross paths with any of them actually. Now of course there are different levels to everything, and I am sure there are African Poachers I could out shoot and get them first from a couple of hundred yards, and some brawlers in the Bronx I could knock heads with and not sweat it too much, and even a few gang members I could come out ahead on (notice I didn't say win against. Usually there are no un-cut "winners" in a knife fight.)

Which brings us back to the whole, not the art, but the fighter discussion. I would rather face a so-so BJJ guy than a good Pub brawler. BJJ doesn't win the fight, the practioner wins the fight.

 

[kidswarrior]

Fair enough question I suppose.
My list would be:

1) East Detroit Gang style with a blade.
2) Bronx Pub brawling
3) African Poacher style.

No I am not making fun of your list at all.

I think as Martial Artists we get trapped into thinking that unless somebody has spent time in a formal training hall or Dojo they are "untrained as a fighter". Nothing could be further from the truth, they are all trained in their environment.

Well put, bydand. I'll admit I fell into the formal (asian style) training hall line of thinking. :whip1: Three of the four guys I've actually ever been afraid of, never even strapped on a white belt--nor would they.

 

[flashlock]

Well put, bydand. I'll admit I fell into the formal (asian style) training hall line of thinking. :whip1: Three of the four guys I've actually ever been afraid of, never even strapped on a white belt--nor would they.

All well and good, but that wasn't the question-- which 3 MA styles would you least like to face (if you add Detroit gang banger, than you can also add great white shark--let's keep it to the question, thanks!)

 

[Shaderon]

That's a question I can't answer, I don't know enough about each style and it's pro's and con's. It's the guys with the murderous intent in thier eyes that I'd least like to face.

 

[bydand]

All well and good, but that wasn't the question-- which 3 MA styles would you least like to face (if you add Detroit gang banger, than you can also add great white shark--let's keep it to the question, thanks!)

There are no ARTS that I am afraid of. An art is a set of skills and techniques put together to form a whole, nothing more, nothing less. Of that there is zero, zip, nada, none that I am afraid of. Practioners vary widely and you cannot compare art to art to narrow it down to the "best" Which is kind of what you are looking for. The answers will be as numerous as the people giving them.

And for the record, your question was which 3 styles, not "which 3 Martial Arts" I named 3 different styles of fighting, valid answer to the question you asked. Never seen a Great White finning its way down the street, but I know I could beat its nasty butt in the environment I would be seeing it in, (Sit back, crack a Pepsi, and wait would be my technique) because I am not about to get in the water with one.

The original question Mike asked though was...

What determines that outcome? This of course is not limited to BJJ, but any art. If someone trains in TKD, is it a given that because they train in that art, they're going to be successfull?

And the basic answer is the Person, not the art from my perspective.

 

[MJS]

Bydand and Exile summed it up with their last posts. As for what arts I don't want to face...as I've said, IMHO, its not the art, but what the person doing the art can do. The old game where person A says a word and wants Person B to say the first thing that comes to their mind. BJJ..Royce Gracie. Now, in the logic that is being presented, we're to assume that we should fear BJJ because of Royce Gracie. I view it as the person, because chances are, not everyone is going to be like Gracie, as he's his own person. Just because someone trains in BJJ, does not mean that they're going to be as good as him. I believe I stated this here as well as in the Ninjutsu thread. There are way too many factors to take into consideration, I just don't see how we can pick an art, and say yes, I fear that.

Mike

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think a better idea is to never form absolutes in your mind or allow yourself to be driven by a thought of well this person studies x,y,z and that they must be a tough person. (you have immediately given them an advantage) I try to treat every individual with an equal amount of respect for their ability to generate violence. (from kid's to adults) In doing so I hope to not be surprised by anyone. Yet once again their is no absolute as you can be surprised by anyone at almost any time. So have a healthy respect for everyone and treat everyone as you would like to be treated. In the end all it will come down to is acting in the moment to protect yourself and your loved ones. Train as much as possible and focus on the details of your training to improve. That is all that you can ask of yourself and hopefully that training and those details will be there if you ever need them.

 

[kidswarrior]

All well and good, but that wasn't the question-- which 3 MA styles would you least like to face (if you add Detroit gang banger, than you can also add great white shark--let's keep it to the question, thanks!)

As Bydand said, you changed the question from the first time asked to this post. And, you implicitly changed the rules:

no need to explain why a certain style is on your list, no need to belittle any other style...

Yet that's exactly what you do. Kind of takes the fun out of playing if you first say, sky's the limit, then come back with, your answer doesn't fit the criteria. Can't have it both ways.

Now all that said, and having tried to contribute something to the thread in the spirit of good fun, I'll go back to the aphorism I always rely on in these 'which style is best' musings: styles don't fight, people do.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

As Bydand said, you changed the question from the first time asked to this post. And, you implicitly changed the rules:



Yet that's exactly what you do. Kind of takes the fun out of playing if you first say, sky's the limit, then come back with, your answer doesn't fit the criteria. Can't have it both ways.

Now all that said, and having tried to contribute something to the thread in the spirit of good fun, I'll go back to the aphorism I always rely on in these 'which style is best' musings: styles don't fight, people do.

However one could add the point that people fight using their styles. I find it best to equate styles as being like weapons, you don't argue which weapon is better, you argue which is better for a specific situation.
A knife might work best in a cramped alleyway, but its not much use against a sniper, and near useless if you want to disable someone without hurting them.

I think the problem is most people want their style to be the Swiss Army Knife of martial arts, and want it to apply to every situation, AND make your laundry smell like lavender too.
But thats not going to happen. You can't focus on one aspect in depth without neglecting another, so you can either be great at one part of fighting and crap at the others, or you can be solid but not spectacular in alot of them. But best at everything just isn't going to happen.
And if you wan't that scent of lavender, you're going to have to work for it.

 

[kidswarrior]

However one could add the point that people fight using their styles. I find it best to equate styles as being like weapons, you don't argue which weapon is better, you argue which is better for a specific situation.
.... But best at everything just isn't going to happen.

Yes, I agree one could further qualify the whole argument, which is why I didn't make such a claim.

Just answered a 'What if' question for fun (stupid me). Guess I extrapolated the question and understood it as, Which art would you least like to face in the hands of a skilled, determined practitioner? Goes back to the racing analogy of exile. It's partly the car, partly the driver. But if I could choose any car to begin with.... (which is how I understood the latest question of 'which style'....).

I think Mike did us a service in trying to pull this back on topic by dismissing the style-vs-style comparison as too simplistic for any sweeping generalizations (just too many variables):

MJS: As for what arts I don't want to face...as I've said, IMHO, its not the art, but what the person doing the art can do.

My 'list of three' assumed the practitioner was a competent, determined, experienced fighter.

And with this, I'm out.

 

[zDom]

Secondly, I really looked into Bruce Lee who basically invented Mixed MA (don't belive me? Read His Tao, and other writings--he was 30 years ahead of his time!). He was open to everything that... WORKED. He was an iconoclast who held no certificates. Throw out your most sacred ideas and techniques if you couldn't get them to work in practice. Do not "stick" to anything... it's a cliche but... "Be like water!"

OK, now wait just a cotton pickin' moment

The TAO of Jeet Kune Do was published in 1973, after he died.

Bruce wasn't even BORN until November 27, 1940, and didn't start training until he was introduced to Yip Man in early 1954.

(Modern) hapkido began to be practiced in 1949. Not long after, the Water Principle ("Ryu") was established as one of the three principles of hapkido.

NO SYSTEM, being like water, means you do the simplist thing to achieve your aim, regardless of the conditions, you flow. So, you need to know all ranges: striking, grappling, multiple opponents, knives, guns, etc. You have to know restraints without hurting people, and you have to know how to kill someone in seconds.

Hmm lets see,

striking? Check.
grappling? Check.
multiple opponents? Check.
knifes, guns, etc.? Check

restraining holds without hurting people? Check.
kill someone in seconds? Check.

Sounds like you are describing hapkido to a "T" to ME.

So WHO "invented" mixed MA? Not saying hapkido: the idea actually has come up in many different cultures over the centuries, but one thing IS for certain: HKD had already covered this ground in Korea before Bruce "invented it" in San Francisco

As for the car analogy, it is a good one. Change the race conditions, and you change which car is "best" (in addition to the driver factor).

You don't want to take a Formula One car out on a dirt track

I've said this before, and I'll say it here again: BJJ is a great art for Brazil where mano y mano fights are the norm.

It also works great in a cage match or any other situation where groundwork is a good option.

For Southeast Missouri where you usually have at least two and as many as five or six rednecks jumping on you at once? I don't think I'll be "rolling," thanks, or taking my time waiting for an armbar or rear naked choke opportunity.

So find out what is best for YOU where YOU are at. There is no universal "best."

If BJJ is best for you where you are at — great! It doesn't HAVE to be the "best art in the world ever" to be the best for YOU where YOU are

So stop trying to convince us and yourself and just get in there and train

Even if you COULD convince me that BJJ is my best option for this area, I don't HAVE a BJJ instructor around here – so it's a moot point~!

And even if hakido IS the best art for you (not saying it IS), could be the only instructor you could find sucks, and you would be better off with BJJ, or Muay Thai, or TKD or...

Anyway, top art I wouldn't want to face?

1) JUDO
2) YUDO
3) Ninja (poison darts in the back of the neck SUCK!! )

 

[flashlock]

As Bydand said, you changed the question from the first time asked to this post. And, you implicitly changed the rules:



Yet that's exactly what you do. Kind of takes the fun out of playing if you first say, sky's the limit, then come back with, your answer doesn't fit the criteria. Can't have it both ways.

Now all that said, and having tried to contribute something to the thread in the spirit of good fun, I'll go back to the aphorism I always rely on in these 'which style is best' musings: styles don't fight, people do.

Well, the question is relating to styles, not criminal types--but people didn't want to play along so I posted this as a seperate thread. Yes, sytles don't fight, people do--and when they fight (sometimes) their style determines if they live or not.

 

[flashlock]

OK, now wait just a cotton pickin' moment

The TAO of Jeet Kune Do was published in 1973, after he died.

Bruce wasn't even BORN until November 27, 1940, and didn't start training until he was introduced to Yip Man in early 1954.

(Modern) hapkido began to be practiced in 1949. Not long after, the Water Principle ("Ryu") was established as one of the three principles of hapkido.



Hmm lets see,

striking? Check.
grappling? Check.
multiple opponents? Check.
knifes, guns, etc.? Check

restraining holds without hurting people? Check.
kill someone in seconds? Check.

Sounds like you are describing hapkido to a "T" to ME.

So WHO "invented" mixed MA? Not saying hapkido: the idea actually has come up in many different cultures over the centuries, but one thing IS for certain: HKD had already covered this ground in Korea before Bruce "invented it" in San Francisco

As for the car analogy, it is a good one. Change the race conditions, and you change which car is "best" (in addition to the driver factor).

You don't want to take a Formula One car out on a dirt track

I've said this before, and I'll say it here again: BJJ is a great art for Brazil where mano y mano fights are the norm.

It also works great in a cage match or any other situation where groundwork is a good option.

For Southeast Missouri where you usually have at least two and as many as five or six rednecks jumping on you at once? I don't think I'll be "rolling," thanks, or taking my time waiting for an armbar or rear naked choke opportunity.

So find out what is best for YOU where YOU are at. There is no universal "best."

If BJJ is best for you where you are at — great! It doesn't HAVE to be the "best art in the world ever" to be the best for YOU where YOU are

So stop trying to convince us and yourself and just get in there and train

Even if you COULD convince me that BJJ is my best option for this area, I don't HAVE a BJJ instructor around here – so it's a moot point~!

And even if hakido IS the best art for you (not saying it IS), could be the only instructor you could find sucks, and you would be better off with BJJ, or Muay Thai, or TKD or...

Anyway, top art I wouldn't want to face?

1) JUDO
2) YUDO
3) Ninja (poison darts in the back of the neck SUCK!! )

You're more afraid to face Judo than BJJ? You can't be serious (watch BJJ vs Judo on youtube). Hey, it's your choice, I just don't see it...

You think Hapkido is as mixed and iconoclastic as JKD? Bruce Lee mixed and integrated arts from western boxing, revolutionized aspects of wing chung, and incorporated grappling from western and eastern boxing systems.

As for multiple opponents, I've seen "Billy Jack"--that crowd kicked his butt! (Joke)

Seriously, I am not here to promote BJJ; why would I? I've taken 3 bloody classes. But it's what I plan to focus on in the upcoming months.

Everyone can try this experiment: while your opponent is throwing his/her kicks and punches, just crash through with your guard up into a clinch, and wrestle them. I found the opponent could not prevent it. To me, that means it's very difficult to prevent someone crashing into grappling range. Ergo, if they are grappling specialists, won't they have an advantage (they spend 95% grappling, and you spend less than 75% grappling)?

 

[Carol]

Moderator Note


Attention All Users:

Please note the topic of the thread is "The Art or The Person" .

Please return to the original topic of exploring the importance of a particular art vs. a particular practitioner.


Thank you!

- Carol Kaur -
- MT Moderator -

 

[bydand]

Everyone can try this experiment: while your opponent is throwing his/her kicks and punches, just crash through with your guard up into a clinch, and wrestle them. I found the opponent could not prevent it. To me, that means it's very difficult to prevent someone crashing into grappling range. Ergo, if they are grappling specialists, won't they have an advantage (they spend 95% grappling, and you spend less than 75% grappling)?

Good luck with that!

Try that with the guys I train with and you'll be spitting chicklets (Teeth in other words.) Had a few try it, funny how they never show back up after getting their bells rung, time after time and NOT taking anybody brown belt and above into a grappling situation.

Which is a prime example of practitioners over art form. It very well may work against other of the same art and the same rank, but here; you lose 99.9% of the time.

 

[flashlock]

I posted in the Ninjutsu vs BJJ thread (didn't start it); and I've posted on this thread (didn't start it). And I've posted on what style you would fear the most (guilty). Somone asked if I'm here just to pick people's posts apart and start flame wars, and others said that I have an agenda.

If I pick your post apart, it's because I respect you enough to read it and examine it carefully.

As for agenda, I do have one: I'm interested in people disagreeing with me so I can learn something.

Even in my post about "most feared opponent", I wanted just to keep it light, but people are still being defensive.

I post on these threads because for a year, all I did was research tyring to find the best style in terms of street fighting. I guess it's more pc to say, "Best style for me."

I've read many MA books recently, and went to classes from muy thai, aikido, western boxing, BJJ, to-shin do, and JKD. I have 6 years in TKD, and in the past have studied Tai Chi, Praying Mantis Kung Fu, ninjutsu, and free style wrestling.

From my research and experience, I have found BJJ would give a practitoner a good edge over most other arts, in mine and many other's (much greater than me) opinions.

What have I learned? Ninjutsu really emphasizes weapons, and that kind of training can influence a H2H combat situation. I also didn't realize Hopkido was so broad--looks like some good stuff. This combat TKD someone mentioned is intriguing--never heard of such a thing.

Also, I am new here. When I debated (especially in the ninja vs bjj thread)--I wasn't into sharing, or listening, just trying to prove my case. I think that was a mistake, and not much was accomplished except for making people angry. I decided yesterday that I'm not going to do that--I want to share what I've learned, and hear what others have to say.

From what I've learned, this forum isn't about proving you're right, or even debating--it's more like friends disagreeing at a party or something: you have to be very civil (regardless of how wrong the other guy is! )

Sorry for the tangent, but let's look at this question openly, freshly, without being defensive, without trying to be right.

Last time for me: 1. It's hard to prevent grappling. 2. Grappling specialists have a slight advantage over people who spend less time grappling. 3. Individual grapplers might have a slight edge over generalists due to their style.

I think these means style is not totally neutral, it has an influence on the individual.

Thanks.