THATS how we're supposed to round house kick?

[Wey]

I've been taking Karate for around 3 years now, but had to leave my first school in order to go to college. I started taking a Shotokan Karate class at my college, and everything has been fine until my sensei starting teaching us the round house kick.

How she wants us to kick is:

Bend the kicking leg's knee, raise the leg upwards so it forms a 90* angle with the ground, then use your leg muscles to pull your leg around, extend the foot, and hit with the ball of the foot. No pivoting is involved, she says if you just turn your body and use the extension from your knee (snapping the leg out) there is no power, but instead to use the power of your legs.

My problems with this are:
If you do not pivot, you run the risk of hurting your knee.
Pivoting gives more power
Pivoting gives a wider range of attack

Is this really how some styles teach their students to do a round house kick? Any input would be appreciated.

 

[dancingalone]

You mean pivot on the supporting foot? That is an integral part of correct kicking, Shotokan or not. Either you misunderstood your teacher or she's gravely wrong.

This is mawashi geri as taught by Kagawa Sensei of the JKS. He clearly pivots on the supporting foot.

[yt]76MgBFVGjiE[/yt]

 

[girlbug2]

I have learned roundhouse kicks the Hwa Rang Do way, the EPAK way, the Krav Maga Way, and the Muay Thai way. They are all the same in that they rely on a pivot of the supporting leg and hips--no teacher has ever told me to do it without pivoting. I agree with your concerns Wey, especially about not pivoting being risky for the knee on the supporting leg. I would fear to practice a round house kick that way.

 

[Victor Smith]

Au contraire!

Use of the supporting leg depends on how extreme you've been trained, and your center flexibility. I teach the turn, but Tristan Sutrisno for a front roundhouse kick to the front, and for back sidekicks to the front does not turn his supporting foot.

It requires starting real young, and very exacting training.. He shared it with my students many times, but alas beyond our potentials.

There are a wide varilety of methods to peform movements sharing the same name. It is incorrect to assume the method we use decribes all variation.

 

[harlan]

Yes, but in your opinion, teaching a beginner karate class in college where the starting age is probably 18, what would be the safest and pragmatic method to use?

 

[jks9199]

I don't teach significant pivoting on the support leg for the round house kick. The technique is different, and requires some flexibility in the hip -- and you don't swing the leg through in the same manner.

You're learning a different art, with a different emphasis and set of principles. Be open to learning different ways of doing things you already "know."

 

[dancingalone]

Au contraire!

Use of the supporting leg depends on how extreme you've been trained, and your center flexibility. I teach the turn, but Tristan Sutrisno for a front roundhouse kick to the front, and for back sidekicks to the front does not turn his supporting foot.

It requires starting real young, and very exacting training.. He shared it with my students many times, but alas beyond our potentials.

There are a wide varilety of methods to peform movements sharing the same name. It is incorrect to assume the method we use decribes all variation.

What is the advantage of not pivoting on a front RH or a back leg sidekick to the front?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I could be way off here, but it sounds as if the issue is in where the toes are pointed. I you are standing penguin toed there is no pivot, however, do that kick pigeon toed and it forces a pivot. We do all our kicks with a pivot, but I suppose it is harder to do well than without a pivot.
Sean

 

[Wey]

You mean pivot on the supporting foot? That is an integral part of correct kicking, Shotokan or not. Either you misunderstood your teacher or she's gravely wrong.

This is mawashi geri as taught by Kagawa Sensei of the JKS. He clearly pivots on the supporting foot.

[yt]76MgBFVGjiE[/yt]

She even specifically said, only pivot if you have flexibility issues, not for power. I'm trying to understand why we're kicking like this, but its frustrating. I agree, that video is how you're supposed to kick. Thanks for sharing.

I have learned roundhouse kicks the Hwa Rang Do way, the EPAK way, the Krav Maga Way, and the Muay Thai way. They are all the same in that they rely on a pivot of the supporting leg and hips--no teacher has ever told me to do it without pivoting. I agree with your concerns Wey, especially about not pivoting being risky for the knee on the supporting leg. I would fear to practice a round house kick that way.

I very much agree. Thanks for the input.

Yes, but in your opinion, teaching a beginner karate class in college where the starting age is probably 18, what would be the safest and pragmatic method to use?

This is a good point, thank you.

I don't teach significant pivoting on the support leg for the round house kick. The technique is different, and requires some flexibility in the hip -- and you don't swing the leg through in the same manner.

You're learning a different art, with a different emphasis and set of principles. Be open to learning different ways of doing things you already "know."

Does the kick that you teach look somewhat like a sideways front kick? And why don't you pivot / use the hips? I'm trying to stay open to this new way of kicking.

I could be way off here, but it sounds as if the issue is in where the toes are pointed. I you are standing penguin toed there is no pivot, however, do that kick pigeon toed and it forces a pivot. We do all our kicks with a pivot, but I suppose it is harder to do well than without a pivot.
Sean

The toes being pointed is an issue as well, but I think, for me, that's just because its different than kicking with the foot / shin.

Thank you all for the responses.

 

[jks9199]

The round kick is chambered at the knee, then rises out and swings around. I will and I teach planting the support foot at an angle prior to the kick depending on target and flexibility.

I don't like the stresss on my knees when you pivot -- especially if you're in a real world situation you're asking to twist your knee. I also want to keep as many of my weapons lined up towards my opponent as possible, and pivoting into the kick turns half of them away. Again -- it's a different set of principles.

(I also don't teach side kicks with the supporting foot turned 180 to the target; that's a back kick.)

 

[Victor Smith]

Question - What is the advantage of not pivoting on a front RH or a back leg sidekick to the front?

Well first thing this is how Sutrisno Sensei was taught, it wasn't an option.

IMVHO
1. it is faster without the ground foot pivoting. (and in his arts working to blinding speed is critical)
2. It doesn't give away what's coming. The same chamber can be a front kick, a round kick or a side kick. There are some who are also fast and this gives nothing away.

Now I was taught the roundhouse kick from day one in Isshinryu and Tang Soo Do among others. I tend to start with a front kick that flips into a round kick too. Again for confusion in sparing.

But Okinawan karate didn't historically have a round kick, the closest may be Isshinryu's squat kick, or a front kick that comes off the floor 25 degrees. IMO the round kick was borrowed from Korea when arts began being done openly.

Whether to include it depends on one's art, the reasons the kick is being taught, the physical potential of the student.

Frankly the Mawashi-geri (round kick) has many variations if you've trained in various arts. There is not one execution, much less one correct execution.

 

[seasoned]

By pivoting it gives commitment, and sets up for the spinning back kick after you set that kicking foot down. Also, when you set the RH kick down, a step behind side thrust kick fits nicely. Although in Okinawa GoJu we use neither.

 

[dancingalone]

Frankly the Mawashi-geri (round kick) has many variations if you've trained in various arts. There is not one execution, much less one correct execution.

True enough. That said the pivoting method is prevalent across multiple styles for good reason. The OP is asking about Shotokan mawashi geri. What Sutrisno Sensei teaches notwithstanding, orthodox JKS (and JKA for that matter) technique does call for the pivot.

 

[Victor Smith]

I understand what you're saying his Shotokan isn't JKA, it follows his fathers studies in Japan in the 1930's under Funakoshi Sensei. JKA became something else.

 

[Touch Of Death]

My Father teaches ball room dance and they specifically have you step with your toes, pointed out, so that your energy will disipate along the circle. This is important or people would be slamming in to their partners. Just know that kick without the pivot is losing power on that circle; so, basicly it has to be a stronger kick to get the same results as a pivot.
Sean

 

[Victor Smith]

Well it's not just power is it. If the kick is accurate far less power is needed, and speed is IMO more important. Consider the target the side of the head, the neck, into the armpit, the lower ribs or the thigh. Bag crunching power is far less relevant.

 

[jks9199]

Well it's not just power is it. If the kick is accurate far less power is needed, and speed is IMO more important. Consider the target the side of the head, the neck, into the armpit, the lower ribs or the thigh. Bag crunching power is far less relevant.

I don't throw the round kick that high, either. Stomach or ribs would be about the highest. More likely is the thigh, knee, or even calf.

 

[Blade96]

i was taught pivoting when doing a mawashi geri.

 

[Noah_Legel]

I was taught to turn the foot before you kick, but the time gap between those two actions is very small. The reason I was taught this was was because pivoting on the ball of the foot (which is how people tend to pivot) does not direct all of your force into your kick but upward and to the side AWAY from the direction of your kick. Pivoting on the heel (as I was taught to punch) is difficult to do when you kick, so turning the foot slightly before-hand eliminates that issue. The idea of not moving the foot at all would make me terrified for my knee's safety.

 

[Sojobo]

I've been taking Karate for around 3 years now, but had to leave my first school in order to go to college. I started taking a Shotokan Karate class at my college, and everything has been fine until my sensei starting teaching us the round house kick.

How she wants us to kick is:

Bend the kicking leg's knee, raise the leg upwards so it forms a 90* angle with the ground, then use your leg muscles to pull your leg around, extend the foot, and hit with the ball of the foot. No pivoting is involved, she says if you just turn your body and use the extension from your knee (snapping the leg out) there is no power, but instead to use the power of your legs.

My problems with this are:
If you do not pivot, you run the risk of hurting your knee.
Pivoting gives more power
Pivoting gives a wider range of attack

Is this really how some styles teach their students to do a round house kick? Any input would be appreciated.

Hello,

I would say your instructors comments hold water if she was explaining Mikazuki-geri

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joKq9O-Q0k0&feature=related

Out side of that, I would recommend asking her to provide you with some more info.

That's what you pay her for.

Sojobo