Terrorism

[Hagakure]

Thanks for the explanation, Hagakure. I must admit my ignorance of the matter. All I know of the conflict is that it was once religious based and that the IRA has resorted to terrorism in the past. I don't know any of the details of the conflict or incidents that have happened.

One thing that I have not understood is why the British are so intent on keeping Northern Ireland. I don't understand the politics involved, so if anyone could explain that, I'd appreciate it.

Also, how common is IRA terrorism? On the other side of the world, we don't seem to hear about it very often.

It's nothing to do with the "British being so intent on keeping NI". The situation is far, far more complex than that. More than half of the population are listed as Protestant, their traditional loyalty is to the Crown and "Britain". In the late 1960s, the Protestants (the guys loyal to Britain) were attacking Catholic communities with increased regularity, it was actually the Catholics who requested assistance from the British government. This move was welcomed at first, but as with the Americans in Iraq, what is initially welcomed as a liberator and peacemaker, were later resented for being seen as an occupying force. By then, the Troubles were well and truly under way, and both sides were merrily knocking seven bells out of each other, and the then RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary) the Police in other words, were totally and utterly unable to seperate and protect either side. In fairness their "Royal" monniker led to the Catholic side complaining of their bias, and I can completely agree with that.

However, the British armed forces were called in to provide support, or the province would've descended into anarchy. Have the British overstayed their welcome? Ain't for me to decide. What's in it for Britain to hold onto? Besides the likes of Harland and Woolfe shipyard in Belfast, absolutely sod all. In fact, there is an increasing movement within England to break up the Union, which many English in particular, would welcome.

 

[The Last Legionary]

You have a delusional fantasy warrior, getting his jollies while spreading disinformation, falsehoods and flat out bull dung.

I smell something, smell like,

 

[Gordon Nore]

No, It is to set the facts straight on Ireland. I know because I have friends who live in Ireland or are from Ireland living in America or Irish friends who hear news from their Irish relatives in Ireland.

That sounds sort of Bushy.

Now, try to say, "Nuc U Lar"

 

[Twin Fist]

actually, snopes has been widely critiqued for a liberal bias for years

 

[elder999]

actually, snopes has been widely critiqued for a liberal bias for years

Well, yeah I got that email too. :lfao:


(Actually, since the original "chain email" is about the Founders, its contents are a matter of history and fact. One can do their own research, and determine that what snopes.com has posted on the subject is simply truthful and unbiased- factual content.)

Of course, one should feel free to believe what they want: that Lewis Morris, whose house was near the place in New York where I grew up, had his home taken over as a barracks for the British, rather than for the Continental Army, that John Hart's wife died after her "husband fled her bedside," rather than a month before the British overran New Jersey, and that a flying saucer crashed in Roswell, JFK was killed by a lone gunman, the CIA never conducted mind control experiments on unsuspecting U.S. citizens, etc., etc., etc....:lfao:

 

[MJS]

ADMIN NOTE

****ATTENTION ALL USERS****

This thread has generated a number of problem posts, that are currently being reviewed by the forum staff. A mod note was already posted in this thread, but it seems to have been ignored. Consider this the FINAL warning. Please take note of the rules for this section.

Keep the discussion on a civil note and avoid the personal shots and rude posts.

Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin

 

[Tez3]

Sein Fein ( the political wing of the IRA) statement on the shooting.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5868363.ece

"Last night's attack was an attack on the peace process. It was wrong and counter productive.
"Those responsible have no support, no strategy to achieve a United Ireland. Their intention is to bring British soldiers back onto the streets. They want to destroy the progress of recent times and to plunge Ireland back into conflict.
"Irish republicans and democrats have a duty to oppose this and to defend the peace process. Sinn Fein has a strategy to bring about an end to British rule in our country by peaceful and democratic means.
"There should be an end to actions like the one in Antrim last night. The popular will is for peaceful and democratic change
"Sinn Fein has a responsibility to be consistent. The logic of this is that we support the police in the apprehension of those involved in last night's attack.
"The police also have a responsibility to give leadership and to behave at all times in a transparent and accountable manner. The British Government has a duty to uphold the new political arrangement and the peace process.
"I particularly want to appeal to republicans once again for calm, thoughtful and decisive leadership.
"The peace process was built against the odds and not least because of the willingness of republicans to take risks and to be strategic and long sighted.
"There are elements within Unionism and within the British system who do not want the peace process to achieve its objectives. Our responsibility is to defend the peace process and the progress that has been made to achieving national and democratic rights.
"We will not be deflected from our republican and democratic objectives."


Whatever people's views on Irish history the truth is that the only way forward for peaceful co-existance is to sit round the table and talk. This has been happening and Northern Ireland has been moving forward into better and more peaceful times. There are people who don't want to see peace, those who glorify killing, those who have criminal interests and those who want power of life and death over their fellow citizens by ruling with the gun.
This lastest attack was cowardly, craven and wicked. the murderers will be hunted down and brought to justice. However not only will the police be looking for them, the Provos will too, for the criminals the police is the better option, the IRA will not be crossed.

The IRAs views will rankle with many as the truce as always is fragile but they have expressed their willingness and their support for the peace process.

One of the pizza delivery men btw is a Polish national and is in critical condition.

I'm not going to dignify Strong Fighters PM to me by answering his accusations against Britain and myself, Northern Ireland is a complicated situation and has been since the 13th century. Henry the Eighth had problems there as has Cromwell and every government since. Giving Northern Ireland back to the south would be only a part solution, for one thing the south doesn't really want it and the majority of the people in the north being Protestant don't want to go so it leaves a problem. The answer of course is simple everyone lives in peace....

There are few British army troops in N Ireland, the soldiers killed were on their last night there as they were deployed to Afghanistan this week. they were Royal Engineers based at the camp not deployed on security duties in Belfast.

Over the years I've heard many twisted justifications for the murder of innocents given by terrorists and by the apologists for the terrorists. Irish history is full of darkness but there is light now and by good people standing firm the peace process will stand. There is hope still.

A vigil was held for the soldiers by the local people from all the community, Catholics and Protestants alike. Everyone interviewed said that peace must continue, the price paid by so many is too dear for us to give up now.

The American State Department offered it's condolences to the families of the soldiers, something I know that is appreciated.

 

[CoryKS]

I would like to visit Ireland one day and see what crimes the British are committing against the Irish people, just like the British committed crimes against Americans during the Revolutionary War and visit the Guinness Brewery.

"Come and see the violence inherent in the system! And try the beer!"

 

[BrandonLucas]

I hate to see things like this happen...no matter what political agenda is behind it. IMO, actions like this are inexcusable.

I pray for the families of the fallen.

 

[Tez3]

"Come and see the violence inherent in the system! And try the beer!"

He'd find the pubs full of British tourists lol, the Irish Tourist Board runs big advertising campaign here. it's a favourite holiday destination as the Irish are very welcoming.
On a serious point I would recommend both the North and the South for a visit, the countryside is beautiful and the people are friendly and as I said welcoming to all.

There's been rights and wrongs on all sides over the centuries, we could fill pages and pages here on the incidents and wrongdoings of ALL but at some point while not forgetting history we have to draw a line and say enough, put that history to one side and say from now on we live together in peace.

I did say here on MT some while back, I believe on one of the interminable gun threads that involve the UK, that NI was still an issue for violence, I'm sorry that it's been shown to be true in this way. there's always been incidents, some known to the public, others not, that the violence and sectarian hatred is there bubbling under the surface still. All those centuries of violence are a hard thing to put behind you but people are trying, the circle of violence, the tit for tat among the Catholics and Protestants is lessening, the circle will be broken.

Strong Fighters assertion that the Brits are holding onto the Province against their will is far from true, the majority of people there being protestants want to stay in the UK, if Ireland were united we'd have another war as they raised a cry for freedom. I remember the British soldiers being stoned by the Protestants as they escorted Catholic children to their schools to enable their safety. The sight of little children cringing as the stones flew past them remains in the memory. You have to remember that things are never what they seem in Northern Ireland.

I along with others, have lost many friends and colleagues in Northern Ireland, in my case too I lost a fiance. I know there are those who glory in those deaths, to see that in print here is upsetting for more than myself. I didn't know the lads who were killed on Saturday, they were however stationed just down the road from me not so long ago and were part of my 'beat'.




Sappers Patrick Azimkar (left) and Mark Quinsey

Killed by cowards. RIP

 

[CoryKS]

He'd find the pubs full of British tourists lol, the Irish Tourist Board runs big advertising campaign here. it's a favourite holiday destination as the Irish are very welcoming.
On a serious point I would recommend both the North and the South for a visit, the countryside is beautiful and the people are friendly and as I said welcoming to all.

That's a trip my wife and I have been dreaming about for years. Someday...

There's been rights and wrongs on all sides over the centuries, we could fill pages and pages here on the incidents and wrongdoings of ALL but at some point while not forgetting history we have to draw a line and say enough, put that history to one side and say from now on we live together in peace.

There's a similarity to what we see in the Middle East, in that the situation gets complicated by the amount of time that has gone by. After a while, it's no longer "This is our land, that over there is your land, now go." Now it's "My children have been born and raised here, this is the only home they've ever known." It's further complicated when the "enemy" is your fellow countrymen rather than a foreign entity. At some point you have to stop looking at how things used to be and accept the reality. These murderers can't seriously believe that they'll get what they want from this?!

I along with others, have lost many friends and colleagues in Northern Ireland, in my case too I lost a fiance. I know there are those who glory in those deaths, to see that in print here is upsetting for more than myself. I didn't know the lads who were killed on Saturday, they were however stationed just down the road from me not so long ago and were part of my 'beat'.

Sappers Patrick Azimkar (left) and Mark Quinsey

Killed by cowards. RIP

:asian:

 

[Flea]

I wanted to thank Hakagure and others for their enlightening explanation on the political situation in that region. It's something I've never really understood. It's a shame that this thread has become so shrill, but refreshing to see that the sniping isn't about the politics itself, but about ignorance concerning the situation. (Does that make sense?)

Anyway, I'd encourage everyone to take a deep breath and head down to the nearest pub. Who's with me?

 

[Hagakure]

I wanted to thank Hakagure and others for their enlightening explanation on the political situation in that region. It's something I've never really understood. It's a shame that this thread has become so shrill, but refreshing to see that the sniping isn't about the politics itself, but about ignorance concerning the situation. (Does that make sense?)

Anyway, I'd encourage everyone to take a deep breath and head down to the nearest pub. Who's with me?

Shoot yeah, I could use a beer. Been one of those lifetimes.

 

[Tez3]

A police officer has been shot down in the street now as Craigavon.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933990.stm

To the person who thinks the British soldiers are there to commit atrocities against the Irish people I'd like you to know that a British soldier threw himself onto the body of one of the injured pizza delivery men and took the bullets meant for him.
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article...IRA_attack&in_article_id=573338&in_page_id=34

 

[FieldDiscipline]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933409.stm

 

[searcher]

You know, no matter who is doing it and for whatever reason, terrorism is a cowardly way of fighting. My heart and prayers go out to the families of the murdered soldiers. I hope that some day the world will wake up and see that these people need to be brought down.

 

[Tez3]

Two men have been arrested in connection with the murder of the policeman.

Cory please keep thinking about going to Ireland, many may well not go now. After the Good Friday agreement was signed, investment in Northern Ireland has grown, in Belfast it will have the largest waterfront development in Europe, the Titanic Quarter, there's going to be a £400m retail centre, victoria Square, the riverfronts are being developed. Belfast is growing into a vibrant modern city full of Irish 'craic', tourism to the province is growing. The British government btw pours in £5000miliion a year into the economy.

There is of course still tension inside and out of the city but people are seeing the benefits of peace and are working to makelife better for everyone. It's not going to happen overnight, memories are long and the pain doesn't go away because pieces of paper are signed, bigotry takes time to stamp out but there is a breath of fresh air about these days. people may be holding their breath at the moment but optimism and hope has to win out.

Southern Ireland is a wonderful place, European money has made it one of the most modern countries going. It's not the old country that many imagine it too be or is portrayed on the films.
From Wikipedia

"Despite reduced economic growth in 2008, Ireland today has the sixth highest gross domestic product per capita and the eighth highest per capita considering purchasing power parity] and has the fifth highest Human Development Index rank in the world. The country also boasts the highest quality of life in the world, ranking first in the Economist Intelligence Unit’s Quality-of-life index. Ireland was ranked sixth on the Global Peace Index. Ireland also has high rankings for its education system, political freedom and civil rights, press freedom and economic freedom; it was also ranked fourth from the bottom on the Failed States Index, being one of the few "sustainable" states in the world.
Ireland is a member of the EU, the OECD, and the UN. Ireland is not a member of NATO, although it does contribute to peacekeeping missions sanctioned by the UN."

Perhaps you can see why a united Ireland is not high on their list of priorities? to bring the Province under it's banner with it's protestant majority fighting to stay in the UK would ruin all they have built up. As bothe Eire and the UK are in the EU, there is no need for citizens of either country to show passports to enter either country, we can also work in each othrs countries, live etc so the status quo after the Good Friday agrreement suited most.

I want people to see the positive side of things in both countries, to show the lie that the British are the invader and keeping the people down, committing atrocities. Irish history is turbulant and bloody, there is a chance now for there to be peace and I want everyone to do what they can to help that peace, America has played a big part in the peace process, keep your political people at it, keep them putting the pressure on the ones who want to ruin everything..please!

http://www.discovernorthernireland.com/

http://www.discoverireland.ie/

 

[Gordon Nore]

Sein Fein ( the political wing of the IRA) statement on the shooting.

Tez,

I found this quote from Adams quite telling of the motivations behind those who feed on violence:

Their intention is to bring British soldiers back onto the streets.

In other words, provoke an 'invasion,' so you can call it a 'war.' To my mind, the peace effort has shown tremendous progress. Peace broke out in Ireland, and it's exposing these alleged 'soldiers' who shot at people during a pizza delivery for what they are -- terrorists.

 

[Hagakure]

Tez,

I found this quote from Adams quite telling of the motivations behind those who feed on violence:



In other words, provoke an 'invasion,' so you can call it a 'war.' To my mind, the peace effort has shown tremendous progress. Peace broke out in Ireland, and it's exposing these alleged 'soldiers' who shot at people during a pizza delivery for what they are -- terrorists.

I think therein lies part of the problem. There are those who find or identify themselves as "soldiers" or find their supposed purpose in war. Unfortunately these people don't stop to think about the hurt they cause, doesn't matter if they come from the Middle East, or Northern Ireland, the end result is generally the same.

 

[CoryKS]

Cory please keep thinking about going to Ireland, many may well not go now. After the Good Friday agreement was signed, investment in Northern Ireland has grown, in Belfast it will have the largest waterfront development in Europe, the Titanic Quarter, there's going to be a £400m retail centre, victoria Square, the riverfronts are being developed. Belfast is growing into a vibrant modern city full of Irish 'craic', tourism to the province is growing. The British government btw pours in £5000miliion a year into the economy.

I'm sure we'll get there someday. The main considerations are money and time. Believe me, I'm not going to pass up a trip like that on account of a couple of numbnuts with a bomb and a manifesto!