Terminology

[Rob_Broad]

With so many styles out on the market in these days, I have noticed a trend and would like everybodies opinion on it. Many yrs ago I studied some TKD and every body had to learn the terminology in Korean, a few yrs after that I trained in Shorin Ryu and we learned Okinawan terminology, that to me was par for the course. Now adays it hard to find a school that uses the traditional terminology for the basics in the originating language. Yes they all count from 1 to 10 in class, but that is susally as far as it goes. I am wondering if anyone sees a problem with this. should people still have to learn a foriegn language to study some styles, or is it a bad thing to do because it frustrates people and they end up leaving class because they came to learn to defend themselves not come for language classes. I will wait for a few replies before I give my opinion on this.

 

[arnisador]

One reason I like studying the martial arts vice pure combatives training is that I get some exposure to another culture, including some language and philosophy. It's intellectually interesting, horizon expanding, and it's occasionally helpful in real life. So for me, this is a plus.

 

[fist of fury]

I don't think it should be required to learn but should be taught. I like learning it myself but there are other people who aren't interested and shouldn't be forced to.

 

[Kirk]

I agree with fist of fury, I don't think it should be required
knowledge at all, but some exposure to other cultures can
be a growing experience. Just don't make it a condition of
my promotion.

 

[Turner]

Shitshurei shimasu
I think it depends on who the instructor is. The vast majority of the instructors in America <I don't know about the other countries, so I can't speak for them> were trained by an American. To say that you go to class to learn about the culture from someone that really doesn't know anything about the culture is like the blind leading the blind. In my book it's just plain silly. So you learn to count (most of the time with improper pronunciation) and its really cool to call off ICHI, NI, SAN, CHI! or Hana, Dool, Set, Net! These languages make the command sound a little more intimidating and just plain cooler than ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR!... But it seems frivilous.
I believe that it is basically an insult to the culture if you want to learn about the culture and don't do it from an knowledgeable individual. If you wish to learn about Japanese culture, learn from someone who's lived there for a few years and has seen the culture in action. Don't learn just the names of the techniques and how to count, but take the time to actually learn the language, the customs and the history. To think that a martial arts class would give you a good lesson in foreign culture is an insult to the complexity of that culture.
Think about it this way... If someone who took your forms and techniques from just the lowest grade (kyu/gup) and presented it as the whole art, a vast majority of you would moan and whine and complain about how they water down the art and label them as frauds and just lambast the heck out of em... but yet most martial artists do the same thing when it comes to the culture. They take the very basics.. how to count to ten or maybe 100, a few words describing direction and movement and a few customs like bowing and the relationship between sempai and kohai... and pretend that you are learning Japanese culture.
I don't believe in doing things halfway. You do it right, you do it good, or you don't do it at all. If I want to learn Japanese culture, I'm going to learn Japanese culture. I'm going to seek out a linguist. I'm going to be going to the library and checking out books. I'm going to see if I can find some Japanese people who are willing to teach me. I'm not going to go to Bob and Tim's Karate Korner to learn.

 

[Chiduce]

It does not matter to me if the dojo teaches traditional terminology use the terminology of their respective countries. I leave this to the individual instructors. Their intention for teaching one way or the other is theirs for whatever reason they so choose. I personally teach traditional terminology so the students can communicate with others from the traditional school, as well as teaching terminology from the american kenpo system. American kenpo has it's own library of terms. Though since i do not teach american kenpo, i only teach the ak terms which pertain to the AK concepts and methods which we use in our system. This same instruction is taught to the students as a traditional terminology tool also. The kenpo of kosho ryu uses traditional terms such as maai, kuzushi, dachi, irimi, in, yo, uke, nage etc,. While the chinese kenpo of Shaolin use jin, jing, yi, li, chi,yin,yang, gong, fa, quan, sui, zhang, etc,. Teaching these terms in classes helps the student's to adjust their motion experiences as they relate to the body-mind relation of responding to attacks. Though it is not mandatory that the students absorb all of the terminology material for testing from rank to rank. It is expected of the student when reaching the brown belt ranks to be very familiar with this terminology. This way they can communicate effectively with other high ranking belts and learn further terminology from each other! This is good for the martial art community as a whole. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Turner

and pretend that you are learning Japanese culture.

I don't see it that way--it provides some exposure to the language and culture. Learning when it's geri and when it's keri opens up a relatively new idea to English speakers, for example. Learning about the lineage exposes you to some of the history of the area--I didn't know that the Ryukyus were once independent (or even that they were more than just Okinawa) until I learned it via karate. It's a bonus--some cross-cultural exposure. The yin-yang philosophy shows up in many martial arts as well and again provides some exposure to these ideas.

 

[Cthulhu]

I think a lot of the Asian terminology is beneficial in that they can explain describe difficult concepts with a simple word. For example, maai, mushin, and zanshin.

English, especially U.S. English, borrows heavily from other languages, often for the same purpose. Sautee, anyone?

Cthulhu

 

[Monkey King]

Required? We have to learn the chinese terms because the grandmaster comes to teach every six months and he only uses the chinese terms. Besides, he's always there to test the 1st black and up and will use the chinese terminology. So out of necessity, we have to learn them in chinese. So it starts at the white belt level.

I think it helps instill the tradition of the art in the practioner.

 

[Shinzu]

when i train i like to use korean terminology. i like to know what moves i am performing and how to say them.

true that pronunciations are often different and there might be some wrong ways of saying things, but i believe it is a part of the martial arts and i enjoy it.

the martial arts not only trains your body, but also your mind. not learning the terminology is like not learning my forms or basics. it all goes together. it is all of what makes the art.

you would not play a sport without learning the rules and regulations right? well for me the terminology is a regulation. students are required to learn what techniques are in another language. i think it chalanges them to go to the next learning level also.

if you are in an american system and do not use another language that is great. if your instructor chooses not to use it, that is his choice and i do respect that. all i am saying is that if you are in a school that requires you to do so, you should learn the language. after all... it is really their art. give it the respect it is due. just like you wear their uniform or belt.

it is always been a plus for me to incorporate terminology into my training, and it is really nice to surprise a japanese, chinese, or korean instructor by greeting them in their language.

Ko Map Sam Ni Da
(thank you)

 

[tshadowchaser]

I think it benifits the student to learn soe of the langue. If you ever talk to a person fron the country of origin about your art you should know his terms, counts, and some basic(at least) phrases.
I once started to learn some of the internal arts,with an instructor from China. He spoke very little English and didn't speak any Chinese. You could see the frustration in his eyes as he tried to explain moves and concepts to me without my haveing the benifit of speaking or understanding his lanquge.
Shadow

 

[kickyou]

General Choi was asked about this at a seminar that I attended He said you train in your own language that way everyone understands you.

 

[arnisador]

I note that there are a great many Portuguese terms used in BJJ.

 

[Rob_Broad]

I believe train the language of where you are. if I went to korea I would expect to learn in Korean. Here in my community we speak English, I teach in Englis, my buddy who teaches Shorin Ryu teaches in English, it should be that way. Unfortunately it is easier for an instructor to make you learn how o speak his language than for him to learn to speak yours, especially if it is English.

I don't care if you are in Zenkutsu daichi or a front stance or a foreward bow, it all boils down to one thing. Most of the time when oyu have to learn an additional language to study a style it is because they need some extra filler for the ranks.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Most of the time when oyu have to learn an additional language to study a style it is because they need some extra filler for the ranks.

I think it's rare for one to have to learn the entire language as opposed to just some terminology. I don't see it as filler in my experience--sometimes it's an instructor's ignorance of or lack of facility with English; sometimes it's an instructor's belief that this shows respect for the country of origin of the style; sometimes it's a belief that it adds an air of "mystique" to the technique (doesn't mae-geri sound deadlier than "front kick"? ); and most often I expect it's the usual case of "But we've always done it that way!" I have to agree that there's some logic to teaching people in their own language but, well, I think it's cool learning even a little bit about the culture. I have certainly surprised Filipinos by being able to count to ten in Tagalog! That isn't much exposure to a culture but I still see it as an extra, added bonus of studying the martial arts. It's little different from bowing and such in many ways.

 

[Shinzu]

i guess it all boils down to a matter of choice. learning in english or another language is the teachers decision.

depending on what school you go to, you will learn their way of interputing the style.

as rob said a front stance is a front stace however you put it. i just tend to like learning more about the origin of the style i am studing.

i also feel it is neccessary to learn the background and history too. when i study the MA, i am looking to learn more than just punches and kicks. i guess this is where the terminology comes into play. i am always looking for new ways to better myself and my training.

 

[TangSooGuy]

Well, i think it is important to learn the terminology, but i'm looking at it from the long-term instructor point of view. In my training i have always been required to learn the korean terminology for everything from counting to techniques to body parts, etc.

Why is it important? Assuming that you'll always be teaching or receiving instruction in English is in my opinion a mistake for the lifetime martial artist. Using the language of the art itself gives us a common ground on which to build a foundation of communication and learning.

Example: I pre-tested for my fourth Dan this past weekend (intense, butr that's a different subject). Anyway, there were several candidates there from Argentina nd Mexico that didn't speak any English.

At one point in the test they staryted lining people up. One of the Mexican candidates wasn't sure what we were doing, so he turned to me and asked,
"Kyuk Pa?"
I shook my head no and said "Dae Ryun".
He said "Ah" and nodded that he understood.

If he had been speking Spanish and I was only speaking English, it would have been harder to get across what we meant, and this was only a simple example.

Use of the korean terms was a great way to communicate, and a great way to both teach and learn in a diverse group.

 

[fist of fury]

I agree if someone is going to be teaching the art then they should learn the terminlogy.

 

[TLH3rdDan]

lol ok back on my:soapbox: i think that the use of korean chinese or japanese in an american school is a waste of time... do you think some where in japan or korea or china that there is an american boxing school teaching them to say right cross.. upper cut... left hook??? hell no they are using their own language... and of course you have to look at how the arts were brought over here... either by GI's or by some japanese chinese or korean instructor who moved to the states... the GI's were taught in the language of the country they were in so it would stand to reason they would continue to teach that way... the guys that moved here from other countried for the most part spoke very little english if any so still they used what they were familiar with and if you wanted to learn you conformed to them... it is still going on today there are 2 tae kwon do schools in my area that have been open about 4 years now both run by koreans and both of them speak broken english so of course they teach the students korean instead of learning english... and yes i can say they are not learning it because they have been been here for that period of time and still have not learned the language ill set down to talk with them and its very difficult to discuss things with them because of the language barrier and im sorry but learning MA terms in their language will not help you carry on a conversation with a person from that area... and i dont think that it is a tradition would you say that teaching someone to box in english because thats where it orginated verses teaching it in the primary language of the country you are in... besides when you were a white belt the first time you set foot on the floor did hearing the instructor yell out the name of a technique in another language tell you what it was or what it was meant to do or did you simply imitate the instructor in order to learn the technique... MA can be taught with out language... oh well im just totally rambling on here....

 

[Shinzu]

like i said before, it is a matter of choice. but if you are required to learn it, then stop your complaining and learn it.

if it is the school's policy then respect your school, instructor, and your art.

if you dont need to learn it then dont... whatever.

now ill get off mine...:soapbox: